Episode 8: How emigrating makes you MORE South African

Justinus Adriaanse (00:00)
Very hard for me to have a long deep conversation without crying. yesterday with Sean Thompson, I basically broke down twice. So it was very, very, very hard.

Robyn (00:03)
Okay, all right. ⁓

Flip Van Der Merwe (00:10)
He just thought about the question

and he started crying. It was actually quite funny. ⁓

Robyn (00:14)
I don’t know.

Justinus Adriaanse (00:15)
I literally,

like Sean set me up absolutely perfectly to ask the question and I couldn’t, I was breaking down just asking the question about his son, not even after he’s told the story yet. it, yeah, I don’t mind crying in public. I feel it’s a super power. So, okay, so let’s do it. Jonathan, you’re ready.

Robyn (00:20)
You

Okay. Okay. Okay. And just

wait, Vainand, where are you?

Wynand Olivier (00:37)
I’m in Pretoria, South Africa.

Robyn (00:39)
Okay, cool. I just wanted to get a sense where you were, where everyone is.

Justinus Adriaanse (00:43)
Okay, so I’ll get us going.

Wynand Olivier (00:43)
Where are you?

Justinus Adriaanse (00:47)
Okay, thanks. Welcome everybody. Welcome to Winning the Away Game. Today we have a special episode for you. I’ve been looking forward to this for a few weeks. It’s just amazing these interactions we have with South African Springbok players starting over in a career after being professional players and South African expats in every part of the world trying to win the away game.

very excited about today and looking forward to chatting and have another great conversation. Flip, how are you today?

Flip Van Der Merwe (01:20)
Stinnis, I’m great thanks very much. Another beautiful non-sunshiny day in the southwest of France. Yeah we’ve got some exceptional guests today ⁓ outside of previous in his previous career he could contest our other guests for the beautiful white airlocks that he had but Springbok and Bulls legend went across the roads to play for Montpellier and Wuster, a stalwart

in every sense of the word. How was it? Good to have you here.

Wynand Olivier (01:58)
Like a flippy, thank you very much for having me. I actually thought this was yesterday. So my timing’s a little bit out, because with the kids at home, work and December holidays around the corner, time’s a little bit screwed up currently. Yeah, but thank you for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

Flip Van Der Merwe (02:04)
You

Justinus Adriaanse (02:18)
And with him, we have one of the essential voices of South Africa, Robin has told South African story to the world for multiple decades and has had the privilege to interview some of the most meaningful contributors to the history in South Africa. So Robin, really looking forward to getting to know you a little bit better and learning from you today.

Robyn (02:42)
How’s it? Hi, nice to see you all. Thanks for having me.

Justinus Adriaanse (02:46)
Awesome. So we always like to start with the same question and that is really to learn your personal favorite Springbok related story. So whatever you feel will tell from your point of view, the most authentic story related to the Springboks, please feel free to share with our audience. Robin, you want to go first?

Robyn (03:08)
no man, don’t do that to me. Vainant, you go first. You’ve got, you’ve got so many.

Wynand Olivier (03:11)
I have to think about Springbok stories though, there’s so many.

Yeah, it’s actually quite difficult. I don’t think about those stories a lot these days, except when my kids see me on TV and they ask questions. Other than that, it’s it’s far in the distance. So give me a second or so, let me just think about one or two.

Robyn (03:40)
Yeah, I mean, think for me, I mean, you think and I’ll talk, so I’ll give you some cover, air cover here, Vailant. ⁓ I think the fascinating thing for me was always watching Springbok fans. ⁓ think I covered when I was CNN’s Africa correspondent, one of the I used to really enjoy covering sport just because I think it was such a great way of trying to throw back to a nation, sort of an image, the best image of itself. And so ⁓

I remember when you guys came back from the from winning the French World Cup. So what year was that? 2007. Yeah. And I had been I had a one year old at home and so I couldn’t travel very far, but I had to cover that World Cup from book town in Monte Casino in Choburg. And I remember being surrounded by just very sometimes very drunk or even just

Justinus Adriaanse (04:16)
2007.

Wynand Olivier (04:16)
2007.

Robyn (04:37)
you know, very drunk South African Springbok supporters, all families. And it was just an amazing sense of watching from far away the way the team kind of just, just really meant something to South Africans. And I think that’s something you guys probably didn’t see because you were always playing out there. But it must have been, I don’t know, I don’t know, what does it feel like when you know that you have sort of this whole nation behind you and on your back? Must be, must be an extraordinary feeling.

Wynand Olivier (05:03)
Thank you 2007 Squaders.

Yeah, 2007 is quite an exceptional year. I think because we won the first Super Egg B against the Sharks in Durban. And on that special weekend, obviously we played against John Smith Sharks and we won the game on a Saturday and straight like maybe 10 minutes after the final and we right back in the changing room, we all got messages from Jake saying, listen, you have to be in Cape Town tomorrow morning. And we didn’t even

start to celebrate and everyone was like yes what are we going to do with the first South African site to win a Super Agri and I think the nice thing about that is John Smith phoned Jake White and he said listen ⁓ give the boys a chance to to celebrate a little bit and

By the time we got back in Pretoria ⁓ Smitty phoned Victor and said to him, listen, go have a Lackaday tomorrow, celebrate, we’ll see you guys on Monday. And I think that was probably the start of the camaraderie we had in the team that year, especially in saying that they’d obviously just lost the super aggby to the Bulls and just saying, listen, boys, go have fun, we’ll start preparing for the World Cup on Monday. And that was quite a special thing for the captain to stand up.

towards the coach and say, listen, let the boys have a little bit of fun.

Justinus Adriaanse (06:28)
That’s awesome, Aynut. That’s a great story, I’ve never heard that before.

Flip Van Der Merwe (06:28)
Yeah.

Yeah. Weinez, obviously from Welkom and then moved on to the reverse. Yeah. ⁓

Wynand Olivier (06:42)
I’m actually, I was actually from Rebecca’s start. It’s nine k’s outside of Elkum. It’s a little bit more linear.

Robyn (06:50)
you’re on the lani side of Velcom.

Wynand Olivier (06:52)
Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (06:53)
Well that

obviously explains the beautiful hair.

Robyn (06:55)
Is it?

Flip Van Der Merwe (06:57)
But then ⁓ moved on to Pretoria to office one of the great rugby schools ⁓ in South Africa. Where in your career did you understand that rugby is a thing that you will be able to do?

Wynand Olivier (07:14)
So Flippy, was fortunate enough, well I’ve got all the brothers, so since the age of maybe two or three, since I can remember.

in living in Valcom we had a small park just opposite our house so we used to play rugby in the park so if it’s rugby season we play rugby if it’s cricket season we play cricket if it’s tennis season and one thing I remember is especially when it’s boxing season at that stage Mike Tyson was fighting and everything so me and my uncle played for the northern free side the Griffins back in the day so we had all these rugby socks so we will take rugby socks put them around our hands and we’ll put other socks in front and then we’ll box

But anyway, so in 1995, my dad was privileged enough to go to the rugby world cup. And I obviously, I was a springboard fanatic at that stage. Obviously, I was a bull supporter back in the day as well.

My dad brought me back the match day program from the 1995 World Cup. And up to today I still have it in the room upstairs. I don’t know if you remember, they had those rugby cards for the players back in the day as well. So I’ve got all of those, all the 95, the All Blacks, the Springboks, everything.

But then like you said, of 99, my dad, worked for IBM at the time, so he was transferred to Santeria and Pretoria, so I went to office. And my mom and my dad said to me, listen, listen, but this is not welcome, this is big school. We watch these guys playing.

on TV on Saturdays and I said to my mom, yes, I’d love to play there. just taking a step back, after the 1995 World Cup, my dad got home and he brought me the match day program. said to him, I want to have my name in that program one day. ⁓

And he just said, oh, it’s not that easy, but we’ll see. But anyway, then we moved to Valcom, after to Pretoria. And obviously, Frida Priya was one of my tricks. was a standard nine at the time. And I’ve known them from Craven Week in primary schools. So Frida was quite as a gentleman as he is. He took me in and said, listen, don’t worry, this will be good. Just do your best and all that. And we played, played trials. And I don’t know if you remember the late François Swart. He was a legend at the time.

Obviously, after school, Rudolf started pulling into the spring box squad as well. And I played my first trial games against Fransel and I had a blind of a game. Second day, same thing.

I jump on the phone and said to my mom, listen, I think there’s opportunity for me to do something here. And Pierre Edwards was our ⁓ headmaster from Uffies at the time and he pulled me and my first game for Uffies was actually at fullback. And it actually went well, the first game, the second game and eventually after the third or fourth game they moved me to inside center after Frida Pia again stepped up and he said, Jack Vanans got a good pass to the right and left, let’s put him in center next to Franck.

Justinus Adriaanse (09:52)
to pull.

Wynand Olivier (10:12)
So we see how that goes and that’s where my whole my whole center playing center started and everything and That same year standard 9 was standard 9. I played Cravenwick for the Bulls and again had a blind over season didn’t get picked for ESSA schools or ESSA Academy ⁓ But obviously coming from Valcom growing up in a town that’s it’s quite odd ⁓ if you well obviously we do we do fighting as a hobby on weekends, so

You have to learn to stand up for yourself. So I said to my mom, listen, I don’t care if I play at some schools, whatever, but I’m going to give it another go. And then, my trick, my third game, I tore my ACL in my knee, so I out for the season.

And as it is, young boy had all these, I’ve got all these aspirations to play for the Springboks and everything and obviously just being opposite, laughter. I thought to myself, listen, we’re not gonna let this go. I had a, like a cry and everything.

finished my metric here and I got a contract from the Bulls that year earning a thousand rand a month. So I thought, listen, don’t care about the money, you’ve got the contract, now it’s in your hands. And luckily ⁓ Dick Mere was a coach at Dickies at the time. And he pulled me in after the first… ⁓

after the first velocity game and he said to me, listen, you got something special. I’m gonna make sure you make it one day. And I think my first game for Techies was the Colton final and then the following weekend we played against the Curry Cup side. So Techies against the Curry Cup side, the likes of Anton Leonard, Freda Pia, all those guys. And again, I had a blind, I scored the first three tries of the game where everyone else wanted to kill me. And yeah, the following day.

⁓

I said listen he wants me to join up in the curry cup side and yeah so from there on I just said to my mom listen I’ll focus off I didn’t go out jogging with the guys in Varsity. I’ll like go out till one or two in the morning just drinking orange juice or whatever but as a young boy from Valcom and I actually say it as a joke but it’s actually true as well I said my my biggest dream coming from Valcom was just to move out of Valcom but it wasn’t to become a spring bulk just to get opportunity

Robyn (12:29)
You

Wynand Olivier (12:31)
Yeah, so and from there on, obviously,

Justinus Adriaanse (12:33)
you

Wynand Olivier (12:34)
⁓ I had a lot of great opportunities and coaches that gave me opportunity and the rest is history.

Justinus Adriaanse (12:42)
That’s an awesome story. Actually, I was in Skelkrantz. I don’t know if it rings a bell, but Fouri and Pierre both were in primary school with me and it’s just amazing the road they walked as well. Robin, tell us a little bit more about your origin story and growing up in South Africa and what was that like for you?

Robyn (13:04)
Yeah, so I grew up in Joburg and ⁓ I actually was born in Australia. So I come from the original sort of ⁓ soap peels, I think, really, because my family, we were packing for Perth, you know, all those

Wynand Olivier (13:21)
That doesn’t sound like an African song,

Justinus Adriaanse (13:24)
Hahahaha ⁓

Robyn (13:31)
all those decades before because my grandfather actually was a springbok cricketer. So he was an opening batsman for the springboks in the sort of late 1920s, early 1930s. So he went over on tour to Australia in 1930 and paid in the test there against Don Bradman.

And that’s a whole nother story. But anyway, he had stopped in Perth and whatever and fell in love with Australia. So he came back and he basically spent the next 20, 30 years taking the kernels.

between Perth and Joburg. ⁓ So I have a bunch of uncles who have Australian accents and then my dad came back and so we went backwards and forwards because as it is with most South Africans, when you immigrate, you spend half your time sort of wishing you were home and when you’re home, you spend half your time thinking what’s it like on the other side. So literally, I think my grandfather took the kernels back and forth between Australia three or four times, ⁓ which is why I was born in Perth.

But then my family, my dad and my mom moved back to Joburg and I grew up in Joburg. ⁓ And then of course went to Australia after university and decided I didn’t like Australia and went back to Joburg. And now I’ve spent much of my life doing exactly what the Kerners have been doing for a hundred years since they sort of moved to Joburg to mine. So I’m backwards and forwards all the time. But yes, I went to St. Mary’s ⁓ in Joburg and ⁓ pretty much grew up in a cricketing family.

Well, you know, on the side of the sports fields of every boys school in Joburg and Pretoria, I kind of watched my brothers or my dad play cricket. So the thought of being a journalist in those days was not even, it didn’t even enter my head.

Justinus Adriaanse (15:21)
And so how did it end up being a journalist?

Flip Van Der Merwe (15:21)
you

Robyn (15:26)
⁓ I don’t know. mean, it was one of those things. I’m not very qualified to do anything else. It turns out that I am. ⁓ Yeah, was under undiagnosed dyslexic, so I wasn’t very good at school, but I’m pretty much a street fighter. Maybe I should have grown up in Volcom too. But ⁓ you kind of land up getting pretty sharp elbows when you, you know, when you struggle to read and I change schools a lot of times. And so I’m really good at picking up stuff. I think it turns out that dyslexic people

Flip Van Der Merwe (15:31)
you

Yeah.

Robyn (15:56)
generally

have a superpower to kind of read a room and tell stories and, ⁓ you know, kind of have a broad understanding of the way things work. So I think journalism, particularly TV journalism is very good at that because you can just talk and you can kind of…

read trends and you can kind of get a sense of the way things are going without having to write the minutiae of say a long investigative piece in a newspaper for example. So TV journals, I kind of fell into it in the very early 90s. I was one of the young

new reporters at the SABC. So 95, I just graduated, I went to Maritzburg Varsity and kind of drank my way through my degree. And then, and then ⁓ basically got hired at the SABC as sort of one of the new faces. There was a bunch of us, four or five of us, who were kind of the on air new faces that were trying to take the SABC news away from sort of the old propaganda.

kind of reporting. And so I was 22 when I first started reporting at the SABC. So that whole Mandela presidency, sort of I was there. And if you remember, mean, SABC News was the only news in those days. So ⁓ it was an incredible time to kind of…

try and cobble together and craft the sort of image of what South Africa wanted to be. And I think Madiba used us and used the storytelling to kind of throw a mirror back at the nation. And so I really took that to heart because a lot of the…

Lot of the reports and they still do it at the SBC was that you say I would go out into the one of the townships and interview some go go about whatever the news was of the day. That’s that story would be translated into all the official languages. So you know and and and and so you so I knew when I was reporting in those early days in the nineties during the Medina presidency that that story that I was doing would be translated and then broadcast into.

far reaches of Khozulu-Natal or into the Kalahari or you know into the suburbs of you know Stanton or wherever ⁓ on radio and on television so it was an extraordinary way to try and learn to tell a story that was universal to all these different

divided parts of South Africa. And I really learned that journalism could be a bridge to differences because I had to find the commonality that Gogo Nkwazulu-Natal and the bridge ladies in Sandton would both be listening to the same report.

And so I really, really learned the cold face there on how to use journalism for good. And as I said, sort of flip a mirror back to a society of what it could be and what it wanted to be. And that’s why I kind of get a little distressed about media these days, because I think it’s often used to divide rather than to be a bridge to differences. But yeah, they were very formative years, sort of growing up in my journalism as South Africa was kind of growing up and trying to cobble itself together.

Flip Van Der Merwe (19:10)
Very good. I think you’re way too English for the news and the Calari, Unfortunately. ⁓

Robyn (19:17)
Now somebody else would tell you the reports would be translated and then you’d suddenly

hear your words in Afrikaans or yes, no, I would I wouldn’t have survived in the Kalahari maybe hey, particularly with Justine’s grandfather, none of that. No, exactly. Your grandfather wouldn’t have had anything to do with me. ⁓

Flip Van Der Merwe (19:30)
Yeah. ⁓ Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (19:32)
Neither in Valcum.

Flip Van Der Merwe (19:36)
⁓

Justinus Adriaanse (19:38)
No, unless

you could speak Zulu.

Flip Van Der Merwe (19:42)
Veinand, you were very much part of constructing the golden era at the Bulls. I mean, you touched on a 2007 Super Rugby, but there was plenty of Curry Cups before that as well. There’s 2007, 2009, 2010 Super Rugby.

Robyn (19:42)
Not very well.

Flip Van Der Merwe (20:09)
and 38 springbok caps in that as well. And then 2013 you decided to pull your wickets and go overseas. Take us a little bit through that thought process. How did you get to that moment?

Wynand Olivier (20:24)
Yeah, obviously after the 2007 World Cup there was a few opportunities to go abroad, but at that stage it worked like if you play abroad you’re not allowed to play for the Springboks.

So I obviously stuck around for a little bit longer. And then in 2010, I got a contract from Stormis to side it against it. And then Flippy, actually in 2012, I went to Japan for the first time. So Aineka Maier took over as coach from Springbox. And I played my last test at that stage was in P against England. So obviously sitting with this thing on my heart, I need to speak to Aineka about the opportunity I’ve got in Japan.

So obviously the Thursday before the game I said to him, listen, I’ve got this opportunity. I can’t play the game on the weekend if I’ve got this thing on my heart. we sat down, we had a coffee and I explained the whole situation to him. And he said to me, listen, don’t worry about it. We’ll chat it on Sunday after the game. Just go and play the game first. Then I flip it, the whole thing was, you know, it was such a good offer from Japan. Never been there. I was fairly young, 29, 30 at the time.

I thought yes let me go and just see what it’s about.

So what a lot of people don’t know is I ended up in Japan. So I sat there for the first week, obviously on the couch. Almost crying, fighting my mom and saying, mom, I don’t know what I’ve done. Yes, I’m sitting in Japan. I got no idea. Everything looks the same. I don’t know what to do. So then I thought to myself, why do have to make this work? So I took a few things I had in the house, like other shoe or can or whatever. And I started walking to the train station like I’ve got in Japan. So then I put every hundred meter, I put a can down or shoe or whatever it might be.

just so I don’t get lost. ⁓

But it ended up being one of the best experiences, obviously living in Tokyo, playing a different style of rugby in Japan. So I think I was about 94 kgs when I arrived in Japan. I ended up 86 or 87 when I finished. And then I think I came back to 26th of January, 2013, and back into the bulls. Obviously, 6, 7 kgs lighter than I normally am for playing super rugby and everything. And I must say, obviously, it opened up my eyes a little bit in terms of

what’s out there. ⁓

Because I think obviously with those golden years we had the Bulls. We were a little bit living in a bubble. ⁓ Obviously knowing that it’s not going to last forever. And I firmly believe life gives you two choices. You either decide to change with the world or the world is going to change you. And that was one of the things that actually brought my decision to go to France. I spent another from January till June I spent with the Bulls. And then I decided obviously being my son and being Willy Fied

⁓ with the French heritage and everything, thought to myself, I always wanted to speak French. The opportunity came up and my coach in France was Fabien Gaultier. So I thought, yes, he was one of the stars of the 95 World Cup as well.

Justinus Adriaanse (23:26)
Legend.

Wynand Olivier (23:30)
just couldn’t say no to the deal. like everyone say, if you wanna go on holiday in summer, go to the south of France and there’s a reason for that. the four years I spent there was probably some of the best years of my life. Ragby was pretty decent, but obviously party did like a rockstar as well. And social media wasn’t that big at that time, so we could still do it. ⁓ so. Yeah, and then.

Justinus Adriaanse (23:51)
That’s amazing, Vader.

Wynand Olivier (23:57)
Yeah, well, and then in 20, what’s it, 2015, I decided maybe I think it’s time to hang up the boots. I took a three months sabbatical.

⁓ So me and my wife traveled quite a bit. ⁓ I go to the gym in the morning, I pick her up, we go to the shop, buy two, three bottles of wine, sit on the balcony or go to the beach, have some wine. And then I played one or two games for the barbarians of the World 15 and got offered a few other contracts. And I said to her, listen, let’s go to England. We’ve never been there. We’ve been to Japan, been to France. Let’s go try England for you. If it works, it works. If it doesn’t…

It is what it is. And we go back to France and Chamars. ⁓ yeah, so that’s how they’re all going abroad things like.

Justinus Adriaanse (24:42)
Thanks, Vina, that’s amazing.

Wynand Olivier (24:42)
⁓ I’m just

gonna plug my laptop in, it’s about to die.

Robyn (24:45)
you

Justinus Adriaanse (24:47)
Okay, cool. I’ve got an important

question to ask you when you’re back.

Flip Van Der Merwe (24:56)
We had a guy yesterday, Rob Lowe, then his battery died and he just left. Mr. Dekuwell.

Justinus Adriaanse (25:04)
Yeah,

Robyn (25:06)
You should.

Justinus Adriaanse (25:07)
his challenge was, his son had to set everything up for him. So his son set up this whole studio for him in his living room, but he forgot to plug in the laptop and then he went for dinner. So Rob didn’t know what to do. He was running around trying to find the charging cord. That was so funny.

Robyn (25:22)
⁓

Justinus Adriaanse (25:26)
So, Vainant, as a staunch Blue Bull supporter, mean, to give you context, one of the worst days of my life was the Cardi Cup final in 1990, which I was at when we lost to the Sharks. And I was at all of the finals from 2002, 3, 4, 5, and at all of the Super Rugby finals as well. There’s one thing I would love to…

get your context and I’ve never asked anybody that was in the ecosystem at the time but one of the most tragic days for me during that golden era was Etienne Boettner ⁓ and when he died in the car accident it was I mean I didn’t know him at all but as a bull supporter it sort of shocked me completely

What was it like in the camp and for the team to go through that experience?

Wynand Olivier (26:27)
Yeah, that obviously was a very sad experience. Etienne was obviously a great guy and he was a mentor for me as well. I had the opportunity obviously to learn my type of game from a guy like Etienne who I think maybe had some of the best feet in the game at the time.

and obviously JP Nail was there and Friki and I actually got the opportunity to start that game against Grecos on the weekend and Brian O’Banner obviously he just came to the Bulls so he was living with Etienne at the time and so we all decided listen let’s go out for the evening it was a Wednesday night and we went to a place in Centurion and

Yeah, had bit luck myself, Anthony, JP, most of the boys were there, but we all knew we were playing a game on Saturday, so we’re not going to stay out too late. So think myself and Brian left around 11 o’clock and Etienne said, no, he’s going to stay a little bit longer. And we were, myself and Brian, were probably some of the last guys there with Etienne.

Yeah, so we left and Brian went home and I think at 3 or 4 in the morning Brian phoned me. Obviously he didn’t pick up the first time, second and when he phoned me the second or third time I knew something was wrong. So I picked up the phone and he said to me, listen Etienne is not at home. And then literally 10 minutes after that Aynika phoned Brian and said, listen Etienne was just in an accident. ⁓

So obviously we were all shocked with what happened. We just saw him a few hours ago and suddenly he’s not there anymore. So we ended up not even having practice the next day.

We didn’t actually know how to handle the whole situation and what’s gonna happen with the game? We’re not playing, I think they tried and then I think Jaina came up with the idea, you know what, let’s honor Etienne in the sense of let’s play with two 13 jerseys. So I think it was the first and only time in Curry Cup history that two centers played with 13 and not a 12 and a 13.

Yeah, so like I said, that was a massive shock at the time and we didn’t actually know it. And obviously being, what was it, 20, 21 at the time, ⁓ we’ve never actually dealt with stuff like that. So it ⁓ was a massive learning curve and obviously to see how the boys got together and how they supported each other. know Etienne was still going up to the LISMA at the time. now…

supported her and everything was actually quite special and I think it’s moments and going through things like that that brings a team, we can either break you or bring you together and I think we chose let’s bring it together and let’s see if we can win a curry cup for Etienne.

Justinus Adriaanse (29:24)
Thanks for sharing man. Robin, what some of the challenges you faced in South Africa that shook you before you ended up moving abroad?

Robyn (29:28)
Mm.

from a story perspective or from, or just…

sort of, ⁓

Justinus Adriaanse (29:43)
Up to you.

Robyn (29:50)
We were talking about this before we came on air, but I mean, I found, and I mean, you guys are Pretoria boys. I found the whole, the story around Oscar Pistorius and that whole thing really difficult to cover because I had known Oscar. He was a friend and I reported on him for many years, knew his family. So that whole episode ⁓ I think was interesting on many levels because you sort of personally think

my God, what just happened? And then you also sitting in the midst of one of the biggest stories on the planet. There was something about the way his story, the sort of golden boy flying too close to the sun, the kind of Icarus theme, the sort of, you know, the shooting happened about three months after he had run in the Olympics, in the able-bodied Olympics with, you know, no legs, this extraordinary.

feet of athleticism and determination and then for it all to kind of go so badly wrong. I mean it just was it just also a cocktail of of kind of kind of sensationalism that really was picked up by every single media outlet in the world and I mean that whole trial I essentially moved to Pretoria.

during that trial. I was living in the Sheraton in Pretoria and Madiba was sick at the same time and he was in a Pretoria hospital. And so I was toggling between the pavements of Pretoria for a year, reporting live on either story. And so it was this weird, it was a very weird time and I had two very young children and my husband was, who was my boss, he was the CNN bureau chief.

was the CNN correspondent. And so the kids were in Joburg during the week. And sometimes he would come up on the train or my mother would bring them up or I’d come back down to Joburg on the weekends. It was just a very weird kind of dislocating thing. for a year almost Pretoria was the center of sort of global journalism. And I had sort of this ringside fence ringside seat to both stories because I’d spent so much time covering Medeba and knew

him and his family that I had access to information and then also with Oscar had access and insights in a way that sort of the foreign correspondents maybe really didn’t have. So ⁓ it was a very confusing time but also there was a lot of clarity involved in that story and the Oscar story and in the Madiba story because in many ways it was the I think the end, the beginning of the end of South Africa.

of that part of South Africa’s story ⁓ and sort of the.

the illusions of that image that we had built up post-apartheid of ourselves started kind of with the death of Mediba and this sort of golden boy falling so fast and furiously. I think it shifted sort of South Africans perceptions of themselves and certainly also perhaps how we were portrayed and how I portrayed the country to the rest of the world. So that was 2013, it was a pretty big year. And then literally once Oscar was in jail and Mediba had died, I got a call from CNN saying,

you know, okay, time to move on to your next assignment. And that’s when they moved me over to here in Atlanta, where I am now, to anchor a show for CNN International. So it really was a of a momentous year for me on many levels, and I think for the country, and just for that storytelling that South Africans really hang on to, the sort of myth-making that we have about ourselves.

Wynand Olivier (33:34)
Funny story, talking about Oscar, I would have had breakfast with him two days after Valentine’s Day, because I just arrived back in South Africa two weeks or three weeks prior to that. And myself, Oscar, Francois O’Hara and Kevin Larino were quite good friends at the time. So obviously just coming back to South Africa and then seeing that happen, I spoke to Oscar the day before the whole shooting thing, it was a bit of a shock.

Robyn (33:59)
Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I mean, and again, there was just such a disconnect. I mean, you tell me, I mean, you were friends with all these people. Yeah, the whole story was just crazy.

Flip Van Der Merwe (34:15)
It was interesting times.

Justinus Adriaanse (34:16)
It was funny,

I actually in Fernie, so I just left ⁓ my previous business and as a family we decided we always wanted to live in a ski resort for the season. So I was in Fernie in British Columbia and I woke up the morning, which would have been afternoon of the 14th in South Africa and just all of friends and it was just like what happened? It was this complete explosion of this

unbelievable reality.

Flip Van Der Merwe (34:49)
Yeah, all I can remember is we lost the home semi-final in 2013 against the Brumbies. That cost us a lot.

Wynand Olivier (35:00)
Hello.

Flip Van Der Merwe (35:02)
⁓ So, Vedat, you went Montpellier into Wuster. ⁓ I played Wuster and in 2019, just before Covid, called it a day. And decided to move back to South Africa immediately, if I’m not mistaken. And you set yourself up pretty well. Tell us, why did you go back to South Africa? ⁓ What made you make that decision?

Wynand Olivier (35:28)
Actually Flippy, to be

honest, the whole idea was not to come back to South Africa. So when I moved to England in September 2015, I actually found a friend of mine in South Africa.

He worked for Sunlam at the time. So I said to him, listen, this is my plan in moving to England for a year. I don’t know for how long I’m still going to play, but I need to like start thinking about life after rugby. he’s David Burtis, you know David.

So he set me up with a gentleman in London, Peter Furee was managing funds at the time and everything and through Peter I met another gentleman, Andrew Lewis. So Andrew was doing ⁓ mergers and acquisitions for Sunlam at the time. So me and Andrew headed off quite straight away, became good friends over the years and everything. So on my off days and whenever I the opportunity I’d… ⁓

Do a little bit of work with Andrew in London, meeting clients, setting up deals. Just getting to know how business works.

with the first introduction, just when I met Andrew, we said, let’s start with a way of elimination. Let’s start, spend time with stockbrokers, spend time with advisors, spend time with analysts. So I literally sat with stockbrokers for two minutes. said, listen, not for me, not, and so we started. But then in 2019, February 2019, when I thought, listen, this is done now, I actually got a job opportunity to do SunLum. I met the CEO of Lloyds in London

at the time and the rugby club Worcester where I was at the time, they offered me a job to come look after sponsors on the weekends and everything. And I said to my missus, well, we’ve got the opportunity to go back or stay here. And she says, listen, we’ve been abroad for so long now, so let’s stay another few years in the UK.

Flip Van Der Merwe (37:10)
Outside of the inside

Justinus Adriaanse (37:10)
Something happened.

must be his side.

Wynand Olivier (37:26)
hear me.

as you know.

Flip Van Der Merwe (37:35)
Talk at Spittoria.

Robyn (37:38)
Yeah, exactly. Oi.

Wynand Olivier (37:39)
Flappy.

Flip Van Der Merwe (37:40)
⁓ it’s completely gone.

Mine did that yesterday as well. It’s real sight again, you know.

Robyn (37:45)
What time is it? okay.

Justinus Adriaanse (37:49)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You like to blame Riverside. In South Africa, it’s ⁓ four quarter to five, yeah.

Robyn (37:57)
yeah that’s five

yeah okay

Flip Van Der Merwe (38:04)
Yeah, yeah, he was Russia. He was good, He was good, Getro. Are you using, Robin, you using Riverside as well?

Justinus Adriaanse (38:04)
Yai yai

Yeah.

Robyn (38:14)
Yeah, yeah, it’s sort of easy for Ladaat ⁓

I know that’s always the… this is the…

Well I can hear some South African… is that you Jonathan? I can hear a Cape Turtle dove.

Justinus Adriaanse (38:42)
Yeah, I hear that as well.

Flip Van Der Merwe (38:50)
⁓

Robyn (38:54)
Okay, yeah, can hear, I hear the turtle dove. If we hear a hardy dove, then we know for sure you’re definitely…

Justinus Adriaanse (38:54)
Nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Wynand Olivier (39:00)
Sorry lost

you guys there for a bit.

Flip Van Der Merwe (39:03)
⁓ he’s back.

Justinus Adriaanse (39:03)
No problem.

Robyn (39:03)
Hello.

Justinus Adriaanse (39:05)
You are on 2019.

Wynand Olivier (39:07)
yeah, so, ⁓ so in February 2019, and my wife decided we’re going to, we’re going to stay in London. Yes.

Flip Van Der Merwe (39:07)
He

Wynand Olivier (39:20)
me see that one.

Justinus Adriaanse (40:15)
want to give him a call on WhatsApp Jonathan see if you can help him. there we go, reconnecting.

Wynand Olivier (40:39)
Sorry, that was kind of day.

Justinus Adriaanse (40:42)
Okay.

Perfect.

Wynand Olivier (40:46)
See you, Amy.

Justinus Adriaanse (40:49)
Perfect, so 2019 why not?

Wynand Olivier (40:49)
Okay.

Yeah, so February 2019, me and my wife would sold our house in Pretoria, the cars, everything, because we moving to London, we were going to buy a place there. And then the first week of April, we flew back to South Africa to Crescent, my daughter. I only stayed for a week, she stayed for the month till the end of April. And my last game for Worcester was on the 18th of May. And when she arrived back in the UK, she said to me, listen,

Flip Van Der Merwe (40:51)
you

Wynand Olivier (41:16)
Family kids. Yes. Yeah, no, she wants to she wants to move back to South Africa. I guess the timing couldn’t have been Better, but anyway, ⁓ yeah, so we decided to move back I took another six months of medical to sort life out. But then I still be now you move back to South Africa. You don’t have a job ⁓ all your friends phone you for lunches and dinners and all those things and ⁓

It becomes quite a late evening and all that and two months into that I said to my wife listen, can’t do this. I picked up, I started studying again, did a few financial courses and all that. ⁓ Yeah and then I got the opportunity in November to join a motor group here and…

I started the 2nd of December and three months later was COVID. Just started new business, then COVID was actually pretty good for me because I took the database of the dealerships and I started an insurance brokerage. So I started another company in terms of that. and flipping from there on it just grew.

And I’m sorry about that. Yeah. And from there on Flippy, nonstop studying, working, grafting. So it wasn’t all smooth sailing. There’s a lot of ups and downs. I think what no one tells you is you can. did work experience in London for four years. Helped a little bit, but no one can prepare for that day. You walk out off the pitch and you don’t have a job. First day, sounds like a yes, I’m on holiday. And then after two, three months, you’re like, well, I need to I need to start looking

For a job or do something different because I got this little one at home looks at me with these big eyes and says You just want to give the whole world and whatever you can provide for and all that Yeah, and then I took I took something upon myself and I decided I’ll wake up every morning at 4 o’clock I run to the gym to 3k’s jump for an hour come back

then I know for a fact my friends, can’t go for lunches with my friends and everything and drink beer and all that. And yeah, I have to work. And then, yeah, from there on, obviously, after two years of starting a real job, things change a little bit and I’m actually enjoying what I’m doing now. It’s actually quite nice. And being back in ESA with family and friends.

Flip Van Der Merwe (43:40)
That’s wonderful.

Justinus Adriaanse (43:40)
Awesome. That transition

is definitely hard. And I think part of the parallel we like to draw on the show is what it’s like starting over after a rugby career with what it’s like starting over in a new country.

Wynand Olivier (43:54)
Just

on that, I think I told Flippy this the other night when I spoke to him on the phone, out of all the countries I moved to, Japan, France, England, coming back to South Africa was probably the most difficult part to adapt back in South Africa.

Justinus Adriaanse (44:12)
Why?

Wynand Olivier (44:14)
⁓ It’s like one of those things, everything moves on and changes but nothing changes actually. you just, obviously when I left here I was single, no kids, nothing, rugby player, you come back, completely different profile, I’ve got a family, I’ve got kids, you’re not in the public eye as well, not at all, maybe a little bit in there. So it’s more, I think it’s more my life changed and…

Obviously a little bit in South Africa, but not too much. yeah, it’s just adapting to what, obviously when you play for the Bulls, you’re almost like a celebrity. Now you come back and you almost, you’re no one, you’re nothing. And you have to start from scratch.

Justinus Adriaanse (44:57)
That’s quite, I completely underestimated starting from scratch because when I landed here and I realized things I wanted to do before that I could just phone a friend and get done, I didn’t have anybody to phone. What was it like for you landing in Atlanta, Robin?

Robyn (45:14)
Yeah, I mean, I’ve been here 11 years now and I still feel like I’ve landed on another planet. And I think the longer I stay, the more dislocated I feel sometimes. I think when you first arrive here, you’re sort of in survival mode. the adrenaline kicks in and you’re having to kind of, particularly when the kids are younger. But I agree with you. mean, those first few years, it’s just the silly things like trying to find doctors or, you know, the, you know, the…

which school, know, the school system is so different. And then now 10 years, over 10 years later, know, we’ve got all of that. We’ve got the optometrist and the doctor and the kids are now coming through, you know, one of them’s graduated, one of them’s gonna graduate in the next two years. Now I’m kind of looking at this place and sort of thinking, you know, who are these people?

Because there’s something so strange sometimes. Maybe it’s you get older or the longer you’re in a place, but I mean, you really realize how South African we are. I don’t know if it’s just us. I don’t know if the French feel it when they move to America or when the British feel it when they move to America. But I sometimes sort of feel like as South Africans, we’re so uniquely bloody South African that it becomes almost like having a third arm, you know, you’re like,

Nobody’s ever gonna understand us. Because there’s such a depth to our experience that everybody else sometimes feels a little bit like they’re scratching the surface. Life is very simple for Americans. Particularly around where I live, we live in a place called Buckhead, which is kind of the lani part of Vulcom. people don’t leave, their generations, the people that I live with are sort of,

fourth, fifth generation Americans from Buckhead. They go to the same schools, they all know each other, the same country clubs. And there’s sort of a certainty and a consistency, it’s consistency and a stability to life here that I kind of still look at them and think, wow, that must be nice. I think I’m still sort of scratching and fighting and trying to figure things out. But maybe that’s just the natural state of being a South African abroad, I don’t know.

Justinus Adriaanse (47:39)
I feel exactly the same way, exactly the same way. It’s just, I feel it blows my mind to think of like three, four generations living in the same town. It’s almost like, and Vainant said earlier, like his goal was to get out of Valcom. I feel like how does these people, how does this work for them? Do they not feel the urge to go see the wider world?

Robyn (48:10)
and I admire that. think, you know, and I think…

whether you’re an English speaking South African or I don’t you know there’s always that sense of you know we’re pioneer stock you know my grandparents came over from England in after the war on my mother’s side of the family and my grandfather on my father’s side of the family we came to Joburg from England to mine in in the Vatvartis ranch you know they were mine managers so you know and since then I said you know we’ve been in you know Australia and then I lived in Australia I’ve got a brother in Canada I lived in England

for many years. don’t know, there’s something about at least our family, but I think instinctively within a lot of South Africans is that we’re wanderers, we’re adventurers, and I think that sort of that fire to keep moving is perhaps what creates good rugby and also creates that sort of sense of depth that we have as a nation. Never quite content.

Flip Van Der Merwe (49:06)
Mm.

We’re never quite content. That is a very French thing actually to say that, know. They always try and find something better out of life. ⁓ I feel that it’s quite a South African thing and obviously we have the bias because we are South Africans staying here. we, and Robin you mentioned it earlier as well, is we become more South African once we move away. ⁓

Robyn (49:21)
Okay.

Flip Van Der Merwe (49:39)
And I think it’s the way we grew up, know, the how he does and the turtle does, as you say, and that’s how we normally wake up. we just used to the multiculturalism and a quiet little place is not South African. And I think that’s what we hunger for while we’re away.

Robyn (50:05)
Yeah, I think you’re right. Because, and I often think about this, that, and I’ve been back to South Africa three times this year, just for various reasons, but, ⁓ you know, we’re very good at moving between classes and demographics. We have a kind of a very easy social mobility because that’s the way you live in, know, Joburg. You’re dealing with everybody in one day. And so you have a real understanding of

other people and from other walks of life. And ⁓ I think when you’re in sort of these very homogenous suburbs, you know, whether you’re in Australia or here in Atlanta or even, you know, I mean, England perhaps is a bit more multicultural, but, ⁓ you know, you’re always looking for someone who’s a little bit different because there’s always, you know, there’s always going to be a good conversation to be had. And I think that’s just baked into us. We’re very good at trying to trying to have a

a conversation with somebody who might offer an alternative version of the day.

Justinus Adriaanse (51:10)
That’s a fascinating point because I was actually speaking to a very successful South African in the UK that does sort of fund management. And his take was a lot of his clients are wealthy families in Italy or in France or over Europe. And his take was that if you’re a wealthy family in Italy, you can spend most of your life and your kids grow up not really confronted by the inequality in society and the poverty.

In South Africa, even the wealthiest families, when you fly into Cape Town or Joburg, you see the reality of the world right in front of you. It’s impossible to avoid it. And his take was, just makes us grow up differently and we have a different sense of the world as a result of that.

Robyn (51:58)
I totally agree with that. And I think that’s, ⁓ and I really do think that’s part of our superpower. And I think that that ability to be able to, with anyone ⁓ and the sort of humor that often comes with it. And, you know, whether you stop at a robot and somebody’s trying to sell you something or whether it’s a conversation you have with people who work with you or work for you, you’re always kind of very highly aware of other people’s problems.

and with that also other people’s successes. And so there’s this sort of overlapping ⁓ that you get in South Africa that you don’t have in a place like America. Structurally America, it’s a very, you you can go from your house to the shops, to your house, to the shops, to school, to church, and you’re driving and you never really encounter anybody who is not only foreign or different, but anyone outside your own social circle.

That’s what I find quite interesting is that the little pods of existence here in Atlanta, church is a huge thing. People are very religious here. And it’s church and even the shops, you know, like even if you go to pick and pay in South Africa, you know, it’s kind of a humus. Everyone’s there and somebody’s buying.

walkie talkie chicken legs and somebody else is buying fillet steak you know the the shop’s kind of catered to everybody whereas here that’s sort of these little pockets of people who look like you and think like you and and and often they don’t overlap.

Flip Van Der Merwe (53:38)
Yeah, it’s the beauty of our country as well, isn’t it? And Veinart, you touched on it. You said you didn’t really want to come back. And when you came back, it’s not exactly 100 % what you expected. So you sort of have to reinvent yourself as you do. How do you feel your experience that you build up during rugby and the challenges you faced constructed the mindset to…

Wynand Olivier (53:51)
you

Flip Van Der Merwe (54:06)
a tactical reinvention or innovation of yourself.

Wynand Olivier (54:11)
I think Robin touched on it briefly now. I think the one thing rugby teaches you quite a lot is how to talk to different people in different ways. If it’s a janitor or a CEO or whatever it might be, it teaches us to have that confidence to talk to anyone and it comes down to the adaptability. I think if like Robin said, if you take South Africans in general, I think we adapt to the world a lot easier than other people. And I think playing rugby

for so long in different countries. We’ve been in difficult situations on the rugby field on and off, and I think it gives you the opportunity to reassess things a little bit quicker maybe and to adapt to different situations. And I think as South Africans as well, don’t really, we don’t like to fail, we like to win. So I’m a very target-driven person. I write my goals down every year. Every year I sit and why didn’t I achieve this?

I analyze it and I think that’s the one the other thing I learned from rugby is we in rugby I had a goal every week if for every weekend And that didn’t change for me at all So I still have it today every year when I when I walk in beginning there I walk into the office. I got a number made that’s my target for the end. I write that on a board If it’s achievable or not, then we we analyze and see why why did we achieve it or why not? but it’s again to

that ability that rugby gave you to we’ve got friends all over the world from different cultures Australia, France, wherever it is we’ve got friends everywhere and it taught us that ability to talk to everyone, anyone and everyone ⁓ in a different way ⁓ according to what their culture is and I think the one thing that me and my wife embraced quite a lot is was embracing the different cultures where we lived in Japan we loved it ⁓ I spent a lot of time with the Japanese putting effort

into talking Japanese and again in France as well. We put a lot of effort in that. I remember when I arrived there, so Fufu Fulgenzodrago was the captain of Montpellier at time. He invited me and I sat around the table with 10 different Frenchies that didn’t understand a word of French and he said to me, listen, just sit, just listen. So and then every now and then he says to me, I could be talking about rugby or we’re talking about this and that. And it went on like that for two, three months before I could literally understand anything.

I could pick up words, but not sentences. And it’s just being open to you. And I was the only foreigner at Montpellier at the time that was invited to the Frenchies’ lunches and dinners. Just because, I think I put myself out there and I put a lot of effort in with them and embracing their culture and how they do things and all that. So I think that’s one thing rugby taught me quite a lot.

Justinus Adriaanse (57:05)
That’s awesome, that leaning into the change and the reality you find yourself in is such an amazing characteristic and it just drives success so much. What did you need to lean in there in Atlanta when you got there, Robin? What was the challenge for you?

Robyn (57:26)
I think it’s still it’s still it’s still a work in progress. And it’s something that I again, I think, you know, we’re very good at talking, as you said, to janitors or CEOs. But I think also I think South Africans also very good, hopefully, at not jumping to conclusions. And so I, you know, you kind of got to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And I think with such a, you know, maddie history as ours, you know, we’ve learned to kind of see the nuanced way of the world that you

you know, black and white, right and wrong is hard in a place like South Africa because it’s such a complicated, complex history. And we’re such a complicated, nuanced, multifaceted society. So I really found it, we moved here at the back end of the Obama presidency, so in 2014. And I then,

Immediately, you know, and then that whole sort of lead up to the 2016 election, I was covering it for CNN. I had the show. And then when Trump became president and then and then, you know, the whole Trump presidency and then Biden and then again. So I’ve been here in the last 10 years during kind of some very tumultuous shifts in the political ⁓ landscape of America. And I think initially.

you see it in a very sort of binary way and I’ve really tried to make an effort with my girls and with me to really understand the underlying reasons behind why people have voted one way or the other and that you can’t sort of write off half of Americans. Whoops, whoops, I’ll say that again, that’s my something for you. You know, you can’t see this in a binary way and you can’t write off half of Americans as either stupid or uninformed or

overly, you know, either way. And so I’ve really tried to understand kind of the divisions here and where they come from and, and do it with kind of kindness and empathy. Otherwise, you know, you’re fighting a fight that you don’t want to, and you’re not going to make any friends either. If you, if you sort of trying to write people off politically, I don’t think that’s helpful, particularly when you’re living in the deep South where I am.

Flip Van Der Merwe (59:43)
great barbecue over there that’s all I can remember

Justinus Adriaanse (59:44)
So, yeah.

Robyn (59:49)
Yeah, exactly. Don’t talk about politics. ⁓ But no, and I think the barbecue is a good way to, you there’s always commonalities. We when we moved here, one of the first things I did ⁓ was we went to ⁓ we went to Dollywood. So Dolly Parton has this like ⁓ it’s like a Disney world, but in Eastern Tennessee. And so she set up so she’s it’s basically a theme park.

Flip Van Der Merwe (59:51)
Yeah.

Robyn (1:00:17)
And so there’s this whole Dolly Parton world. And Eastern Tennessee is a very poor kind of Trump part of America. And we went there and I just really wanted to understand the kind of instincts of this part of the world. And I really got it. so, you know, and of course only Dolly Parton can kind of bridge divides, but it was fabulous. And I think making sure that…

you understand and have empathy with people who are struggling is really important for kids in an entitled world in the suburbs in America. So I’ve really tried to push that here.

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:01:02)
Very good. ⁓ Vainant, the young boy from Rybek-Kastil… Not Rybek-Kastil, Rybek… Rybekstad. We’ll leave you proud of the Vainant that has become after rugby.

Wynand Olivier (1:01:09)
Rebek start.

I think he will be. It’s like, I think Matthew McConaughey had a speech in ⁓ one of his Oscars or whatever where he said he’s, he’s here, he’s himself 10 years from now. ⁓ Because you’ll never be able to catch him. And I actually, I took a lot out of that speech of him. Never thought about it in that sense. And obviously what we achieved in rugby was good and was nice. But if you think about it, it’s actually a very small part of your life. If you think about I for 17, 18 years.

as

professional rugby. ⁓ So the next part is a lot longer and obviously it changes constantly because we’re two small kids and ⁓ life moves actually at quite a fast pace currently. But to answer the question, Flippy, I think most definitely. ⁓ In some of the most difficult changes, and a lot of people say, one of the most difficult things you can do ⁓ is moving from one house to another and obviously moving countries ⁓ even more

⁓ You don’t think of it at the time, but I think like Robin also said earlier, ⁓ you live there for so long and you part, but obviously South Africa will always be in your blood. That doesn’t change. ⁓

And as I said to a lot of people, I live in South Africa now. It’s not to say I’m going to live here forever because we’ve learned how to live in the moment and how to handle change. And it’s not always difficult, easy or anything, but no one knows what the future holds. And I think my… I think… Vainant from 10 years ago would be proud, but even more so, I Vainant from 10 years from now will be even prouder back in the future.

Justinus Adriaanse (1:03:05)
That’s an awesome way to look at it. Because that full circle of always trying to live forward and reflect back is such a powerful weapon. So what is that?

Wynand Olivier (1:03:15)
So I think

the difficult part is we set goals for ourselves and we think we’re going to achieve it. But it’s also to take the difficult parts and the disappointments on the chin and just moving on from that and learning from it. And I think that’s one thing I’ve learned a lot better since stopped playing rugby that I did when I was playing rugby. Because you’re more disappointed in yourself back then when now you’re more figuring out, listen, what is the way forward?

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:03:48)
Very well put.

Justinus Adriaanse (1:03:48)
such an important lesson there.

The ability to use the setbacks as the stepping stones for the future is amazing. What’s the future for you Robin? What’s the next 10-20 years look like for you?

Robyn (1:04:06)
Good question. I don’t make myself goals because I kind of, I think I tend to sort of muddle my way through things. I find it interesting to suddenly be the mother of children who are nearly grown up. And so you suddenly have to sort of think, well, it’s for me now. ⁓ I do think that journalism and media is…

is something that’s behind me in a way, you know, I’ve I did 30 years as a foreign correspondent and anchor and I just feel like the media industry is not what it used to be. And I left because it was just not a happy place. And I just wasn’t I just don’t believe particularly American media is just so yucky and so toxic. So I’m trying very much to kind of look forward to a place where

I’m working on stuff that feels good and isn’t so hard, where you’re not dealing with sort of negativity.

As you as you do, you know, if you know, I think everybody reads the news these days and you’re like, my god What’s just happened now? This is giving me anxiety So, you know, I’ve spent the last since I left CNN I’ve spent a lot of time sort of detoxing from the news and I think a lot of my future whatever it is involves kind of very curated either putting out stuff or just Curating what I consume and I think trying to live in the moment read books

kind of go for a walk, all those simple things that we saw that sometimes you spend your life rushing past. ⁓ I’m very kind of focused in trying to cut out the noise because I think that if you’re not careful, it can swallow you up.

⁓ And it’s not healthy. and I I that’s one of the things that you know I’ve tried to be very active with my girls is you know trying to raise teenagers in America right now anywhere ⁓ and also trying to just be a whole person and we’re cutting out all this noise and this negativity that gets thrown at us and just focusing on friendships and building friendships or figuring out where you want to be and What is actually important? It’s about actually making your life smaller rather than bigger I find

and that’s kind of a work in progress for where I’m going.

Wynand Olivier (1:06:38)
think that’s very well put.

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:06:38)
I love that.

So where are you watching?

Robyn (1:06:43)
And it’s strangely, mean, yeah, yeah, know. And

strangely, a lot of it is me going back to South Africa. I I drove through the Karoo about a month ago, and I just thought to myself, you know, this crazy, beautiful place. And, you know, that simplicity and the roughness of the Karoo and…

And you know, listen, I mean, if in my head, I’d be living six months a year in a Pondoki somewhere in the the the Karoo and six months here in America trying to sort of, you know, figure out life. But I don’t know. We’ll see what happens.

Wynand Olivier (1:07:06)
Thanks.

Justinus Adriaanse (1:07:14)
Well, I’m down the days for my youngest to finish school and then I’m looking forward to doing exactly the same. Because I don’t need to be based anywhere. I just want to be able to spend three, four months a year in South Africa and spend the summers in North America is amazing. So I just want that mobility. I don’t even need to own a place. I just want to be able to come and go whatever way I like.

Robyn (1:07:20)
You’re also looking for a pondoki in the karoo, yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (1:07:41)
We’re to give you guys the opportunity to ask each other a question. While you think about the question you want to ask, tell us just a little bit full circle moment. Where do you think you’ll be watching the 2027 World Cup, hopefully final South Africa playing? ⁓ So that and then just a little bit, maybe if you guys want to add, what do you see as legacy and or giving back?

for you in the future. Vainant, you wanna go first?

Wynand Olivier (1:08:15)
Okay, I think obviously I think the nice thing will be if I can watch the World Cup final in Australia with my family I’d love to take my son my son and my daughter to go watch it. Obviously my wife’s watched a few games or she’s been to a few she’s never actually watched it ⁓ But I’d love to take my kids ⁓ Yeah, so that’d be the one there what was that what was the second part of the question there justiness

Justinus Adriaanse (1:08:43)
legacy what do you what what what is

Wynand Olivier (1:08:46)
I

for me legacy is not something you can bold. ⁓

I think legacy is something you leave behind when you obviously when you pass away. It’s what people say of you. He was a good father. was a good friend. He was always looking after other people or whatever it might be. He was a good listener. think it’s your legacy is what you build every day. The heart you touch of people you don’t know that obviously the people you look after as well. And I was sad enough I was at a funeral a few weeks ago.

It is so nice to hear that people talk, speak nice things about a person. ⁓ It’s almost…

I firmly believe it should be a celebration of someone’s life. We put on Earth for a short period of time and no one knows when our time is finished. So it is to enjoy life to the fullest and ⁓ experience different things. I firmly believe the world’s put out there to be experienced, ⁓ obviously in different ways. But I think the legacy is what you leave behind and how you touch people’s hearts.

Robyn (1:10:02)
I have no idea where I’ll be watching that rugby. It might be here in Atlanta. Maybe if I’m lucky it’ll be in a wine farm somewhere. I don’t know. ⁓ I do think that this team is extraordinary and I’m kind of amazed at how deep the bench is because I do think we have such a chance to actually finish it again. ⁓ The grit and the resilience of those boys are…

really quite extraordinary. ⁓ And in terms of a legacy, I don’t know, I think.

It’s a hard one. I’m a big believer in words, like I said before, words and deeds, sort of creating conversation that is meaningful rather than kind of hyper partisan kind of.

digging a trench and sort of digging in on your position. So, you know, I hope the journalism that I had done over the last 30 years is, know, still stands. The conversations I’ve had with, you know, some of the most powerful influential people in the world and some of the poorest, you know, kind of stands as a testament to that. And I think as, I think we’re all parents and you just want to make sure that you’ve raised kids who…

who can go out into the world, particularly these teenagers who went through COVID and social media and all this stuff. And I think, you know, hopefully my greatest sense is creating daughters who are able to see the world, like I said, in a comprehensive way and able to cope. Because I see a lot of kids around me who aren’t coping. And so I think it’s a really powerful thing to send two women out into the world who are your own, but not your own, and say to them,

you know, you’re okay and you you have the tools to survive. And I think particularly in an AI world, you know, we’re going into AI where, you know, this sort of industrial revolution where things are changing so much, this generation certainly needs to sort of just understand the basics, which is, you know, loving your neighbor and reading a good book and appreciating the simple things in life, because I think that’s one thing AI can’t do.

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:12:18)
Very well. So as Justina said, we have this little tradition where we allow our guests to ask each other a question. ladies first, Robin. ⁓

Robyn (1:12:33)
Okay, I want you I want to know what it’s like being out there on the field. You know, I know what it’s like to broadcast to a billion people during breaking news. And I know that sense of adrenaline that kicks in and you kind of just trust yourself. And I’m assuming that if you’re out there and you’re on the pitch, and it’s a final, or whatever it is, and even if you’re down, how you kind of where you find that what it feels like to be out there with 80,000 people watching you, and you’ve got to, you got to just

go for it with the ball. I mean, describe that for me. I’d love to know.

Justinus Adriaanse (1:13:07)
Can I add one sentence there, why not? Maybe while answering it, refer back to the 2007 Superfinal when you guys were down and the clock was already gone and you had to figure out how to win.

Wynand Olivier (1:13:07)
I think one of the…

I say Robin one of my favourite parts of playing rugby was running out full over

into a full stadium of 80, 90,000 people. And I think Loftus Varsveld is probably my most favourite stadium I’ve ever played at. And that’s including, Twickenham and all that. Every stadium has got something different. I think knowing your family’s watching, family, friends, all that, and you want to, obviously, you want to make yourself proud first and then obviously the family as well. But you’ve got a team, you’ve got 14 other players next to you on the field.

plus the bench and you don’t want to let anyone down. don’t want to be that guy going into the change room after game saying, listen, boy, sorry for this, sorry for that. But so we feed over, I fed over lot of energy from some of my teammates, which was good, but obviously the noise in the stadium, 50, 60, 70,000 people, it’s special. obviously while you’re running and let’s say you break the line in your year, the crowd just go, it’s a special feeling and feeling

off that and like Justine has asked, referring to back to the 2007 Super Agri final in Durban, when Albert Vandeberg scored the try, when he put his hand over myself and Morneau Steyn was standing behind the poles while I was kicking for posts and he said to me, Bainie, you know we’re gonna beat these guys today, And there was like maybe two, three minutes left, I’m not sure how long it was, but it was very, not a lot of time.

Justinus Adriaanse (1:14:52)
No, the worst part, like… Sorry,

why not just say that again? What did Moray say, Vainey?

Wynand Olivier (1:14:57)
Dios.

He said, Vaini, you know we’re gonna beat these guys today, huh? So. ⁓

Yeah, and I thought to myself, yes, obviously, if he’s got this belief, then let’s go do this. And I think that last few phases or maybe three, four, five, I don’t even know how long it was. It felt like ages. And obviously, pulling it off when we saw Brian, I was on the far side of the field when Brian broke through there. Just going nuts. But I actually experienced that when Brian scored the try and it was probably one of the moments. Obviously, three, four minutes prior to that, you could see people

start leaving the stadium and your heart sinks into your shoes and you’re thinking yes she can’t lose the the Super rugby final and I think we pulled off a little bit of a miracle there but it’s probably one of the one of the most special moments winning that Super rugby and just to believe the guys had in each other to pull that off was was quite brilliant but the crowd does play a little bit of a a effort

Justinus Adriaanse (1:16:03)
You know what, Wynand?

What was amazing is I was with Pride Property at the time and out of the entire management team I was the only Bull supporter and all of the others were Sharks and I flew down for that game and they were giving me such a hard time after that Albert van den Berg try that they couldn’t believe it when we won. It was one of the most amazing days ever.

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:16:32)
and

Wynand Olivier (1:16:32)
Yeah, it was quite special. must

Justinus Adriaanse (1:16:33)
Your

Wynand Olivier (1:16:33)
say

Justinus Adriaanse (1:16:33)
question for Robin.

Wynand Olivier (1:16:34)
lot of… Robin, so obviously having traveled the world and you’ve got two daughters and… ⁓ I read something the other day where they said ⁓ the only two people in the world that wants you to do better than themselves, your mom and dad. So if you have to go back… ⁓

through your career and your life and everything. there’s one thing that you can take out of it and teach your kids, what would it be?

Robyn (1:17:13)
There’s been so many moments because I think one of the reasons I became a journalist was not to be on television, but was actually to kind of, I was curious about the way the world worked and also powerful people. So I spent a lot of my career being in places and watching really powerful people. So I’ve interviewed a lot of US presidents. I was there with the death of the Pope. was there at Fidel Castro’s funeral.

and obviously spent a lot of time with Mediba, Tutu. And so you look at all these people and you think, ⁓ can I take from them? Sort of like an MBA and leadership. And I still think, and it probably is a cliche, particularly to South Africans, but I was with Mediba on his 90th birthday in Kunu.

And I kind of asked him the same question was, you know, do you have any regrets? And I thought he would say that he regretted not spending enough time with his family. And he actually disagreed with me. And he said, no, that everything he did was good for his soul. And it was one of the last interviews he gave. And it’s always sat with me because that choice that he made for leaving his family and fighting for.

you know, fighting for freedom was a choice. And there were sacrifices and compromises that he made and he left behind the sort of broken family. But he did it because he said it was good for his soul. And so I’ve kind of used that as my mantra throughout my career and everything I did, particularly as a, you know, as a journalist.

I did because it was, it made me feel good. was fun. It was exciting. It was interesting. I was curious. And then suddenly at some point when you’re at the top of your career and I suddenly thought this isn’t good for my soul anymore. And, ⁓ and it was an extraordinary sense. And I realized that I was also not being

You you raise daughters to say, well, you you should have choice. You should be able to say no. You should always do what’s good for your soul. And then you come back from work moaning about the news, moaning about the people you’re working with, complaining about media in America. And I realized I was, I was actually role modeling a pretty bad role model because I was so, I was so unhappy at the top, ⁓ anchoring these shows in the depths of American kind of political division.

that I was bringing it home. And so I hope that, you know, to my girls, knowing that you do have a choice sometimes, and even if that choice means walking away, ⁓ because it’s good for your soul, ⁓ you know, I, you know, it didn’t make any financial sense. And it certainly didn’t make any sense on paper to walk away from a top job like that. But I did it because it was good for my soul. And that advice came from Mediba. ⁓

And, you know, I’m still trying to figure out precisely what’s good for my soul. But I think it’s really important in these days and as a parent to kind of let these kids know that they have a choice and that sometimes that decision should be as simple as asking what is good for my soul.

Wynand Olivier (1:20:40)
advise it. ⁓

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:20:43)
and

Justinus Adriaanse (1:20:45)
Okay, awesome.

Thank you, Robin. Thank you, Vainant. That was a wonderful learning and getting to know you guys. We really appreciate it. These stories of starting over and adjusting to the new context is really what the Winning Their Way game is all about. And you both set such great examples of doing that and adapting. So thank you very much and thanks for joining us. This was a wonderful experience for me and Filipp.

We look forward to recording some more episodes. Tell us what you like, send us some questions, send us some guests you’d like to have on the show. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and all of the other social networks. Thanks very much and thanks to the Lacka Network for supporting us and building this podcast.

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:21:34)
Thank you, Vaynard Robin. This was excellent.

Robyn (1:21:38)
Thank you very much to all of you. All the best.

Wynand Olivier (1:21:39)
Thanks for having us.

Flip Van Der Merwe (1:21:43)
Cheers. Thank you guys.

Robyn (1:21:44)
Thank you. Thank you guys. ⁓

Wynand Olivier (1:21:45)
Thank you.