Season 2, Episode 4: The Fame Trap

[00:00:00] Justinus: What happens when the [00:00:02] first version of your life stop [00:00:04] being enough and you have to build [00:00:06] a different identity?

[00:00:07] Pierre: They usually [00:00:08] say it’s a dream come true. Mine was [00:00:10] a, a nightmare I couldn’t wait to [00:00:12] wake up from as quickly as possible.

[00:00:13] Pierre (2): My [00:00:14] dad’s lifestyle was just

[00:00:15] Pierre: out of hand.

[00:00:15] Pierre (2): My [00:00:16] life changed when I

[00:00:16] Pierre: was 20 years old.

[00:00:17] Daniel: We [00:00:18] totally

[00:00:18] Pierre (2): lived 100%

[00:00:19] Daniel: by faith. My [00:00:20] dad was always a great

[00:00:20] Pierre: mentor to me,

[00:00:21] Daniel: and [00:00:22] then when I finally broke through in rugby, you know, [00:00:24] he passed away. So we recorded that song, [00:00:26] and that song became Song of the Decade [00:00:28] in America. I never wanted to be on stage. So [00:00:30] he basically missed my whole career. He missed [00:00:32] me playing for the Springboks.

[00:00:33] Daniel: I never [00:00:34] met my wife, et cetera, et cetera. Death [00:00:36] really teaches you about life. Touring [00:00:38] with Camila Cabello. I did

[00:00:39] Pierre (2): the whole Reputation [00:00:40] tour with Taylor Swift. We never, ever moved [00:00:42] because we, we wanted to leave South Africa. It’s [00:00:44] [00:00:44] Pierre: not how you start, it’s how you finish,

[00:00:45] Pierre (2): [00:00:46] right?

[00:00:47] Justinus: [00:00:48] Welcome to Winning the Away Game, the [00:00:50] show about what happens when the first [00:00:52] version of your life stop [00:00:54] being enough and you have to build [00:00:56] a different identity. [00:00:58] Different countries, different works, [00:01:00] different question, and often with a [00:01:02] different understanding of who you [00:01:04] are. Our guests today are [00:01:06] from two completely different [00:01:08] worlds, but share something deep.[00:01:10] [00:01:10] Justinus: Pierre Spies was [00:01:12] known to the world as a Springbok [00:01:14] and one of the most physical [00:01:16] dominant players of his era. [00:01:18] And Daniel Ornelas [00:01:20] built a life in music [00:01:22] from South African roots into the [00:01:24] American creative world, [00:01:26] through 363 into a [00:01:28] long second chapter in production [00:01:30] and collaboration. I’m super [00:01:32] excited because Pierre is [00:01:34] not only from Pretoria, where I grew [00:01:36] up, many of my Blue [00:01:38] Bull Rugby memories are tightly [00:01:40] intertwined with his career, [00:01:42] and Daniel’s music was the [00:01:44] sound of my youth.

[00:01:44] Justinus: So I could [00:01:46] not be more, uh, more [00:01:48] excited about today. Flip, are you [00:01:50] ready?

[00:01:50] Flip: Justus, I’m [00:01:52] incredibly excited. Um, like you [00:01:54] said, it, you took the words out of my mouth. [00:01:56] Uh, 363, a band that [00:01:58] formed and shaped my youth very [00:02:00] much. Um, and then sitting live [00:02:02] face-to-face with one of my [00:02:04] both personal good friends, [00:02:06] but also a very good mentor.[00:02:08] [00:02:08] Flip: Um, someone that we shared, uh, [00:02:10] lots of blood and sweat together, [00:02:12] um, a lot of good times [00:02:14] together. Pierre Spies, Daniel [00:02:16] Ornelas, where are you guys now [00:02:18] at the moment? And welcome very much, [00:02:20] yeah.

[00:02:20] Pierre (2): Yeah, I’m here in Nashville, [00:02:22] Tennessee, um, miles from the ocean, [00:02:24] which is very sad.

[00:02:25] Pierre (2): Um, [00:02:26] but yeah, uh, we’ve been here for 24 [00:02:28] years, my wife and I, and this is where we [00:02:30] live, man. Yeah.

[00:02:31] Pierre: Well, that sounds, that [00:02:32] sounds great. We are, obviously in South [00:02:34] Africa, in George. Been living here in [00:02:36] George for three years, and, [00:02:38] uh, it’s a fantastic place to live. [00:02:40] Beautiful scenery. South Africa still is [00:02:42] the greatest country in the world.[00:02:44] [00:02:44] Pierre: And, uh, happy to be on the [00:02:46] show, guys. Thank you for having us. I’m really [00:02:48] looking forward to this discussion.

[00:02:49] Flip: I think [00:02:50] we all four we agree that South Africa [00:02:52] stays the best place. No matter where we are, [00:02:54] we’re all South African at heart. [00:02:56] Um, we, we have a little tradition [00:02:58] on the show where we start off asking the [00:03:00] guests about your favorite Springbok [00:03:02] memory, as long as it’s not Joel Stransky [00:03:04] kicking the ’95 World Cup, because that’s [00:03:06] number one place for everyone.

[00:03:07] Flip: [00:03:08] Um, Daniel, I’ll let you go [00:03:10] first. What is your favorite Springbok memory?

[00:03:11] Pierre (2): [00:03:12] So the last World Cup, um, we, [00:03:14] we go to like a little, uh, [00:03:16] bar here in Nashville. It’s a, like a, I [00:03:18] guess like a Irish pub or whatever it [00:03:20] is and, you know, it just gets [00:03:22] packed out by South Africans, [00:03:24] Australians, and New Zealand people. [00:03:26] And, uh, when we watched the final, you know, [00:03:28] I had a n- a buddy from New Zealand, and he’s [00:03:30] really

[00:03:30] Pierre (2): He’s quite a tall dude, and he’s, [00:03:32] he’s very loud. So when there was that [00:03:34] moment where it looked like they were gonna win, [00:03:36] he was all over me like, “Ah, you see? You [00:03:38] see, mate? Yeah.” And then it was just [00:03:40] eventually we just gave him a clap, [00:03:42] and it was over, and I was all excited. It was [00:03:44] just great. Yeah, being around…

[00:03:45] Pierre (2): [00:03:46] Trying to also introduce my American friends to [00:03:48] rugby and now watching them. [00:03:50] You know, I always say, “You know, it’s so much better than [00:03:52] American football.” And they go, “Man, what do you know?” And I’m [00:03:54] like, “Come watch.” And then they realize, gosh, you’re [00:03:56] right. There’s something more to [00:03:58] this. It’s in the players’ hands.

[00:03:59] Pierre (2): It’s not [00:04:00] ches- a chess game between coaches. [00:04:02] It’s such an amazing sport. I love [00:04:04] rugby. Uh, I don’t play it as [00:04:06] much as you guys, but [00:04:08] yeah, that’s, that’s my favorite memory. My [00:04:10] worst memory is when I was in standard five at [00:04:12] Cork Bay Primary and and [00:04:14] we had to play against Paarl. [00:04:16] And I was like a, I was like a [00:04:18] little late bloomer.

[00:04:19] Pierre (2): I was a skinny [00:04:20] little child, and I looked at these men [00:04:22] coming down to the field, and I was like, “Hold on a second. We’re [00:04:24] on the wrong field here.” Man, [00:04:26] that- that- that’s my worst rugby memory. [00:04:28] [00:04:28] Pierre: Yeah, they should actually let the [00:04:30] kids play according to weight, not according to [00:04:32] age. I, [00:04:34] [00:04:34] Flip: I, I think someone that will agree, [00:04:36] much easier to watch now than play.

[00:04:37] Flip: [00:04:38] Yeah. What is your favorite, uh, Springbok [00:04:40] memory?

[00:04:40] Pierre: Well, I think, uh, you [00:04:42] know, I think as a spectator [00:04:44] last year, the whole World Cup was [00:04:46] just incredible. I think the level of [00:04:48] rugby that last, uh, three [00:04:50] games all won by one point was [00:04:52] just, um… [00:04:54] And to be a South African was just like, [00:04:56] made me extremely proud, [00:04:58] um, the way we [00:05:00] won.

[00:05:00] Pierre: And then I think [00:05:02] personally, in 2009, we [00:05:04] won the British and Irish Lions [00:05:06] and, uh, it is [00:05:08] quite an incredible experience to play [00:05:10] against them, and we played them in South Africa, [00:05:12] and obviously we, we played [00:05:14] the first game in Durban. We won [00:05:16] it with about, I think about six [00:05:18] points, and we were [00:05:20] quite, you know, we were quite [00:05:22] easily over them in the first, [00:05:24] first 60 minutes of that game.

[00:05:25] Pierre: In the last [00:05:26] 20 minutes they came back. That was the first game. Then the [00:05:28] second game, we were actually trailing the [00:05:30] whole game, the game at Loftus. [00:05:32] And obviously we know if [00:05:34] we, if you win the se- if we won the second game, we [00:05:36] win the series, and then you silence [00:05:38] all 50,000 Lions supporters [00:05:40] that comes to, uh, South Africa.[00:05:42] [00:05:42] Pierre: And all the media [00:05:44] hype and, uh, you know, there was [00:05:46] plenty of media boxing [00:05:48] going on. Peter de Villiers, our [00:05:50] coach, made a few statements regarding, [00:05:52] uh, rugby being [00:05:54] equated to playing, uh, or [00:05:56] having, uh, like ballet, to do [00:05:58] ballet. Um, [00:06:00] Schalk had an eye gouge in the first [00:06:02] 30 seconds of the game. [00:06:04] Um, there was people…

[00:06:05] Pierre: [00:06:06] Bakkies hurt, uh, [00:06:08] Adam, uh, what’s his name? Adam Jones, I think, the [00:06:10] prop. It was, it was a [00:06:12] tremendous test match. And [00:06:14] then, um, Fourie du– Ag, uh, [00:06:16] Morné Steyn kicked over that penalty [00:06:18] in the last, the last moment of the game. [00:06:20] So we won the game, and it’s the [00:06:22] best way to win a game like that. [00:06:24] There’s no play after that.[00:06:26] [00:06:26] Pierre: And then the euphoria after that, knowing that you [00:06:28] won the series, it’s basically as big, [00:06:30] almost like, well, not really as a World Cup, but [00:06:32] it’s, it’s, it’s pretty big. [00:06:34] So for me, 2009, it was [00:06:36] also the year that we, from my career, [00:06:38] we had the best year as Springboks. [00:06:40] In 2009, we won the, the [00:06:42] Br- the Tri Nations also.

[00:06:43] Pierre: We beat the All [00:06:44] Blacks three times in a row. [00:06:46] So it was just an, uh, [00:06:48] incredible, uh, year of Springbok [00:06:50] rugby, and then we won the [00:06:52] British Lions. So that was be, that was my [00:06:54] favorite memory. Worst memory, [00:06:56] probably my Springbok debut. [00:06:58] Um, they usually say it’s [00:07:00] a dream come true. Mine was a, a [00:07:02] nightmare I couldn’t wait to wake up [00:07:04] from as quickly as possible.[00:07:06] [00:07:06] Pierre: And we played against Australia, [00:07:08] and we had a good team on [00:07:10] the field, and we lost [00:07:12] 49-0, and I got [00:07:14] dropped after that first game, [00:07:16] and they wanted to fire Jake White, [00:07:18] so. But it’s not how you [00:07:20] start, it’s how you finish, right?

[00:07:21] Flip: Oh, [00:07:22] you s- you definitely survived that. [00:07:24] Go, going, [00:07:26] going into the, into the deep [00:07:28] end, um, yeah, you made your [00:07:30] debut after your dad passed away.[00:07:32] [00:07:32] Flip: Um, you both have, [00:07:34] both have the similarity that you [00:07:36] both, you were inspired [00:07:38] by your parents or [00:07:40] fathers in your religious and in your faith. [00:07:42] Um, how did it [00:07:44] make you feel, you know, making your, making your debut? [00:07:46] You working so hard, inspired. [00:07:48] You’re quite open and public about the [00:07:50] inspiration your dad was in your career.[00:07:52] [00:07:52] Flip: Um, maybe a question to you both, [00:07:54] the, the, the, [00:07:56] um, the roles your parents played in [00:07:58] your, in your, until [00:08:00] today, in your career, in your faith, uh, [00:08:02] uh, in, in, in the foundation of what [00:08:04] your faith is today.

[00:08:05] Pierre: Yeah, look, I [00:08:06] think, um, a [00:08:08] lot of times children [00:08:10] become like their parents without even [00:08:12] wanting it or knowing it because [00:08:14] it’s generational.

[00:08:14] Pierre: I actually think it’s part of our [00:08:16] DNA, and I never [00:08:18] thought that I would, uh, end up doing what [00:08:20] I’m doing now, but it was, it’s [00:08:22] part of my calling. But, you know, I lost [00:08:24] my dad when I was 19, so I [00:08:26] was very young. And I’ve got [00:08:28] two older sisters, and I was, I was the [00:08:30] youngest from the three of us. [00:08:32] So it made [00:08:34] me, uh, take responsibility of [00:08:36] my life at a very young age.

[00:08:37] Pierre: [00:08:38] Um, but I was still a kind of a, [00:08:40] kind of a loose [00:08:42] cannon in certain ways, if I can call it like that. I [00:08:44] wasn’t really focused. [00:08:46] I had a lot of, um, [00:08:48] potential and obviously a [00:08:50] lot of aspirations. [00:08:52] Um, but even the f- even the [00:08:54] years before my father passed away, it was, it was [00:08:56] difficult years for us as a family also.

[00:08:57] Pierre: My [00:08:58] parents got divorced when I was 15. [00:09:00] Um, you know, seven years [00:09:02] before that it was, it was, it was [00:09:04] difficult times at home. Um, my [00:09:06] parents, their marriage actually broke [00:09:08] down as the years went on. As [00:09:10] a child, you know, be- between the ages of [00:09:12] seven and 15, it was your form… a [00:09:14] lot of your forming years. [00:09:16] But, um, but [00:09:18] my dad was always a great mentor to me, [00:09:20] inspired me, encouraged me.

[00:09:21] Pierre: [00:09:22] Um, and then when I finally broke [00:09:24] through in rugby, you know, he passed away. So he [00:09:26] basically missed my whole career. He missed [00:09:28] me playing for the Springboks, uh, all the [00:09:30] highlights, uh, missed, uh, never met [00:09:32] my wife, et cetera, et cetera. [00:09:34] But this is life, you know. Life happens to all [00:09:36] of us, and we all have our story.

[00:09:37] Pierre: [00:09:38] And, um, like anything, [00:09:40] it’s, it’s what you make of it. And, [00:09:42] um, I took the, I took the [00:09:44] good things from my father. Uh, I [00:09:46] really, uh, treasure [00:09:48] it, treasured it. And then [00:09:50] I also learned from, [00:09:52] uh, their mistakes, never [00:09:54] judging my parents, but honoring [00:09:56] them and understanding, you know, [00:09:58] every person is fighting their own battles.[00:10:00] [00:10:00] Pierre: And then, um, but again, [00:10:02] like you say, uh, I [00:10:04] actually… Things changed for me [00:10:06] when I made a decision for [00:10:08] myself regarding where I stand, [00:10:10] um, with my [00:10:12] purpose, regarding my destiny, regarding [00:10:14] faith. Actually, with my life changed [00:10:16] when I was twenty years old. So even though I was [00:10:18] raised in this house, I never really, [00:10:20] really decided for myself.

[00:10:21] Pierre: And the moment I did [00:10:22] that, uh, things changed for me [00:10:24] completely. Uh, it brought a lot of, [00:10:26] uh, focus to my life and my [00:10:28] career, and it gave me a great sense of [00:10:30] purpose, uh, fulfillment, [00:10:32] uh, living for God, [00:10:34] honoring God through my talents, building, [00:10:36] building the kingdom of God. [00:10:38] And it actually protected me in a lot of [00:10:40] ways.

[00:10:40] Pierre: So all through my career, that, [00:10:42] um, kept me grounded in a lot of [00:10:44] ways. Not that I’m saying I’m, [00:10:46] I’m a perfect man. I’m a work in progress, [00:10:48] like all of us. And, [00:10:50] um, but yeah, that’s my story. I [00:10:52] think all of us, you know, your parents play [00:10:54] a huge role in whatever way. [00:10:56] And I wish my dad could be [00:10:58] here, and that he could see my career, and [00:11:00] I wish that he could meet my children.[00:11:02] [00:11:02] Pierre: But that shaped me into the man that I [00:11:04] am today. It helped me to, to [00:11:06] become the man I am, to stand up, [00:11:08] to take responsibility. [00:11:10] And, um, there are a lot of men like [00:11:12] that, you know, whose parents always, their [00:11:14] fathers… You know, a lot of people’s [00:11:16] fa- parents are alive, but they are [00:11:18] truly absent. And they [00:11:20] are alive, but there actually there’s no [00:11:22] relationship.

[00:11:22] Pierre: So the [00:11:24] times I had with my father was incredible [00:11:26] But, um, yeah, I [00:11:28] had a decision to make to [00:11:30] become a, uh, take responsibility of my life, [00:11:32] and I, and I thank God for it. I could do it at a [00:11:34] young age.

[00:11:35] Justinus: Daniel, for [00:11:36] you, what, what role [00:11:38] did your dad play?

[00:11:39] Pierre (2): Yeah, absolutely. [00:11:40] My dad was, um, in a [00:11:42] band called Hawk, which is a big South [00:11:44] African rock group in the ’70s.

[00:11:45] Pierre (2): And, [00:11:46] um, my mom and dad were actually [00:11:48] separated when I was a baby because … [00:11:50] and my sister and I were young [00:11:52] because the, my dad’s lifestyle was just out of [00:11:54] hand. He was, you know, living the rock [00:11:56] star life and living in a, like a [00:11:58] hippie kind of communities with, with [00:12:00] the band. Um, they got [00:12:02] signed to a record deal in, in, in [00:12:04] England, um, and they were kinda not, [00:12:06] often not allowed to play on the same stage [00:12:08] as the guys in the band ’cause it was a mixed race [00:12:10] band during apartheid.

[00:12:11] Pierre (2): And so [00:12:12] he moved overseas. My [00:12:14] parents were separated. Um, [00:12:16] and then my mom, you know, she [00:12:18] grew up, uh, kinda just in the Catholic [00:12:20] faith, but not really going to church [00:12:22] at all. And, um, [00:12:24] at, at one point when my dad had [00:12:26] come back from, uh, England [00:12:28] and they were still kinda separated and, [00:12:30] you know, he’s doing his thing, [00:12:32] um, my mom actually found [00:12:34] faith w- in a, in a little [00:12:36] kinda small little like home [00:12:38] group they called it, or like a cottage meeting or [00:12:40] whatever they called it those days.

[00:12:41] Pierre (2): Uh, there’s an [00:12:42] old lady from the States that came here to [00:12:44] South Africa and she was about 80, and [00:12:46] she did like a little mor- like a little prayer [00:12:48] session, and my mom kinda got led to the [00:12:50] Lord right there, and she got [00:12:52] baptized. And when she did that, she told my dad, [00:12:54] “Listen,” she’d always been trying to work it out ’cause w- you [00:12:56] know, ’cause of the kids.

[00:12:57] Pierre (2): Um, [00:12:58] and she said to my dad, “Listen, it’s over. It’s never [00:13:00] gonna happen ’cause I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve [00:13:02] found faith and I’m, I’m moving in a different [00:13:04] direction.” He could see, even though him and his friend [00:13:06] were totally drunk, they arrived at the church to [00:13:08] try and cause a scene. I’m [00:13:10] gonna send you a picture of this guy.

[00:13:11] Pierre (2): If you look it up, [00:13:12] he’s got a giant afro and he was just a crazy [00:13:14] man. And he, he tried to cause [00:13:16] a scene at the baptism, and then [00:13:18] eventually, you know, my … He, he … [00:13:20] They couldn’t find the church in time before she got [00:13:22] baptized, and she, when she came out, [00:13:24] he could see something had happened in her life. So he went [00:13:26] home, started reading the Bible [00:13:28] and, and John, he realized that in the [00:13:30] Book of John, that God, you know, it was talking [00:13:32] directly to him.

[00:13:33] Pierre (2): And, uh, and [00:13:34] immediately he just completely [00:13:36] changed his life around, and within two [00:13:38] months they were back together again. [00:13:40] Um, and so they’re first generation [00:13:42] believers and that it … Then he, he [00:13:44] was the worship pastor at Rhema for [00:13:46] like a number of years in a band called the Rhema [00:13:48] Band with, with, yeah, with, [00:13:50] uh, with Tom Engels and [00:13:52] Carol Mundy and all those people.

[00:13:53] Pierre (2): And [00:13:54] then he eventually, [00:13:56] uh, when I was about 9 or 10 years [00:13:58] old, he decided, you know, [00:14:00] after producing a record for a b- a [00:14:02] group called African Sunrise, which were guys [00:14:04] from Mitchells Plain, from some, some [00:14:06] colored guys from Mitchells Plain. [00:14:08] He, he was in the house and he was at Bible [00:14:10] school at the time, and all these guys had to come [00:14:12] live with us ’cause they didn’t have place to stay [00:14:14] when they were recording this album that they did.[00:14:16] [00:14:16] Pierre (2): And so they had to get permission from the [00:14:18] police for them to stay at our house. Uh, and [00:14:20] we had a tiny little house, and there was like nine of [00:14:22] them, and so- Well, every [00:14:24] time they’d come back from recording, they’d [00:14:26] ask my dad questions about God and w- [00:14:28] and these guys were like a sponge, you know, ’cause they, [00:14:30] they had no, like, they, they [00:14:32] were believers, but they didn’t really have any [00:14:34] discipleship.

[00:14:34] Pierre (2): And my dad was going through [00:14:36] Bible school at Ramah, so he was very into [00:14:38] talking to them about it. And he said to my [00:14:40] mom, “If we ever pastor a church, I want it to be these [00:14:42] people.” My mom was like, “We’ll never be [00:14:44] pastors, man. There’s no way.” Uh, [00:14:46] anyway, so eventually they, [00:14:48] they, my dad just packed up everything [00:14:50] and moved to Cape Town and, and [00:14:52] went into Mitchells Plain and rented a [00:14:54] classroom in a school during when I was [00:14:56] about nine years old and started [00:14:58] a church with no backing and [00:15:00] no, no money.

[00:15:01] Pierre (2): It was crazy. [00:15:02] They just, they sold their house in Jo’burg and … [00:15:04] So I grew up around very [00:15:06] f- kind of radical first-generation [00:15:08] faith. Um, my sister and I, [00:15:10] we had to … I mean, my parents [00:15:12] would always say, “Look, we, we don’t…” They’d never say, “We’ve [00:15:14] got no money.” They’d say, “We’re in between what [00:15:16] God’s given us before and what’s coming.”[00:15:18] [00:15:18] Pierre (2): And [00:15:20] so we, we, we totally lived [00:15:22] 100% by faith. We had n- we never, you [00:15:24] know, we didn’t have a lot, but God always kinda [00:15:26] met our needs in, in crazy stories [00:15:28] and crazy ways. And we s- we [00:15:30] traveled as a family overseas a lot to, [00:15:32] you know, Sweden and, and all [00:15:34] over, uh, the States and [00:15:36] different places singing as a family.[00:15:38] [00:15:38] Pierre (2): Um, and I never wanted to be on [00:15:40] stage actually. I was just wanting to be a surfer when [00:15:42] I grew up and that, that’s all I did. And my sister [00:15:44] was into it. She’s a, an amazing performer like [00:15:46] my dad. Um, and I just [00:15:48] never really had a hunger to try be on the [00:15:50] stage, but, um, I, you know, I [00:15:52] j- I just was, I tolerated the [00:15:54] fact that our family does this, so get up [00:15:56] there and sing.

[00:15:56] Pierre (2): So we’d get up there [00:15:58] and, and, and travel around. [00:16:00] Uh, but to see my parents [00:16:02] walk out their faith and also [00:16:04] never kinda … They were not religious. My dad [00:16:06] was like, he’d always look crazy, long hair and, [00:16:08] like, he wore crazy clothes and he’d get on [00:16:10] the plane. He had this deep, like, voice like [00:16:12] Joe Cocker voice and, uh, and he [00:16:14] still always sang and played and we did [00:16:16] lots of massive ev- ev- You know, he’d [00:16:18] always be the guy that would sing at these big [00:16:20] conferences and stuff in South Africa that [00:16:22] if anyone came over, there’d be like [00:16:24] these, you know, these events he’d sing at [00:16:26] and sing with a backing track and just blow everyone [00:16:28] away.

[00:16:28] Pierre (2): He’s that amazing performer. [00:16:30] But, um, you know, you’d, you’d be [00:16:32] sitting on the plane and someone would say, “So what do you [00:16:34] do for a living?” He’d go, “I’m a pastor.” And [00:16:36] they’d go, “No, really, what do you do for a living?” [00:16:38] “I’m a pastor.” And they’re [00:16:40] like, “Oh, okay.” And that’s, that’s the [00:16:42] kinda guy he was. So we just didn’t have a [00:16:44] very weird religious upbringing.

[00:16:45] Pierre (2): We [00:16:46] had a, a, like, faith in action kind [00:16:48] of life growing up and it was [00:16:50] hard not to just follow in that and, [00:16:52] and to grow, uh, my own faith and [00:16:54] understanding. And obviously I went through my [00:16:56] things, but I pretty much walked into, [00:16:58] into faith as a, as a, a [00:17:00] young, young guy and, and always was, [00:17:02] it was always part of my, my life.

[00:17:03] Pierre (2): [00:17:04] And as you know, like, like you said, [00:17:06] Pierre, um, you know, [00:17:08] we are definitely always a work in progress and [00:17:10] there’s stuff I’m not proud of and there’s, [00:17:12] you know, there’s, there’s, um, moments in [00:17:14] your life where you’ve- Find yourself [00:17:16] questioning and you, and it’s, it’s a [00:17:18] journey and as long as your arrow is [00:17:20] sort of pointing in the right direction, I th- I [00:17:22] think God’s got grace for, for [00:17:24] us, uh, beyond what we, what we think.[00:17:26] [00:17:26] Pierre (2): Oh, it’s amazing.

[00:17:27] Justinus: And isn’t it [00:17:28] fascinating how, I think, Pierre, [00:17:30] you, you mentioned how we sort [00:17:32] of naturally in our DNA is [00:17:34] this thing of being a little bit like our [00:17:36] parents. Like your dad played rugby for the [00:17:38] Bulls, you ended up playing for the [00:17:40] Bulls and the Bulls. Your dad, Daniel, [00:17:42] was in a band and [00:17:44] i-i-in ministry and, and you sort of [00:17:46] followed the same path.

[00:17:47] Justinus: It, it’s almost [00:17:48] ima- It’s like how we embrace that [00:17:50] environment in, in which we grow [00:17:52] up. Yeah.

[00:17:52] Pierre (2): Yeah, and even though my, even [00:17:54] though my dad was, uh, you know, [00:17:56] 62 when he passed and I wasn’t [00:17:58] 19, uh, you’re never [00:18:00] really ready for your dad to, to pass [00:18:02] away, and 62 is young. So I, [00:18:04] I, I can just, um, you know, [00:18:06] Pierre, we, we know the feeling of losing [00:18:08] a, a dad at, at a

[00:18:09] Pierre (2): I was [00:18:10] in early 30s, so it, it just felt [00:18:12] too crazy. He’s young. He never met [00:18:14] my son. Uh, you know, there’s lots of things [00:18:16] that you, that you wish, you [00:18:18] know, that your dad could see and there’s, there’s, [00:18:20] there’s things that you want … you, you want [00:18:22] to be able to say, “Hey, Dad, what do you think of [00:18:24] this?” Or, you know, you want them to be there [00:18:26] as a mentor and, and not [00:18:28] having that is, is difficult.

[00:18:29] Pierre (2): And when you kind [00:18:30] of become the, the, the, the [00:18:32] patriarch of your f- of your whole entire [00:18:34] family, it’s, it’s a big responsibility and it’s [00:18:36] something that, you know, you don’t ask for it, [00:18:38] but when it comes you’ve gotta step into it. [00:18:40] [00:18:40] Pierre: Yeah, and that’s life. I [00:18:42] think that thing about death is [00:18:44] that nobody prepares for it really, [00:18:46] and it comes to us all.

[00:18:47] Pierre: It [00:18:48] comes to us in different ways and, [00:18:50] um, [00:18:52] um, death really teaches you [00:18:54] about life, which is so [00:18:56] amazing. You know, uh, [00:18:58] uh, the Book of Ecclesiastes [00:19:00] actually says it’s better to spend your time at [00:19:02] funerals than at parties [00:19:04] because funerals make you think about [00:19:06] life, where parties you only think about having a good [00:19:08] time.

[00:19:09] Pierre: So, [00:19:10] um, it had a tremendous impact upon my [00:19:12] life and, uh, [00:19:14] every situation is different. [00:19:16] Um, every relationship with family members are [00:19:18] different. Um, [00:19:20] some people are glad when their parents [00:19:22] pass away. I wasn’t glad when my [00:19:24] parents passed away, but, [00:19:26] um, when my dad passed away. So the [00:19:28] reality is just, look, death is not, it’s not [00:19:30] easy, but it teaches us a lot about [00:19:32] life, um, and what life really is [00:19:34] about, what matters, you [00:19:36] [00:19:36] Flip: know?

[00:19:37] Flip: Yeah. It’s, um, [00:19:38] it’s, it’s, uh, such good … [00:19:40] It’s almost like testimony for you from, [00:19:42] from your side, guys. It’s so, it’s so, it’s [00:19:44] so good and it’s, like, gives me [00:19:46] chills. You know, we are all [00:19:48] fathers sitting here, you know, so it, [00:19:50] it goes about, uh, what is the, what [00:19:52] is the impact that you, you have on your [00:19:54] kids’ life and how much can you, can you [00:19:56] push into them now, you know, because we, [00:19:58] we, we are here borrowed time.

[00:19:59] Flip: [00:20:00] Daniel, you s- you said an interesting [00:20:02] thing about your dad having [00:20:04] Having almo- [00:20:06] almost these rogue bands, you know, not allowed [00:20:08] to, to have other people [00:20:10] in his bands and, you know, in, in a [00:20:12] very dark era of South Africa [00:20:14] during apartheid and having to, you know, ask [00:20:16] permission and, and, and [00:20:18] left and then came back the next…

[00:20:19] Flip: How, [00:20:20] how did that play, [00:20:22] subconsciously play on you, [00:20:24] um, when you decided to pack up [00:20:26] and, and hit America? [00:20:28] Um, you know, what was the, [00:20:30] what was the feeling? Was there, was there anything that, [00:20:32] that touched that, of [00:20:34] that to say, “Okay, well, I’m, I’m leaving South Africa [00:20:36] now for new shores,” or was it [00:20:38] purely, uh, a business decision?

[00:20:39] Pierre (2): [00:20:40] Yeah. It’s, it’s an interesting question. A lot of [00:20:42] people ask that, you know, when you, when you move over [00:20:44] here, um, ’cause there’s, there’s obviously [00:20:46] a lot of folks that have come over from South Africa. [00:20:48] I’ve got some really close friends that have just [00:20:50] moved with the new kind of, [00:20:52] uh, setup that’s been made [00:20:54] visa-wise available for people.

[00:20:55] Pierre (2): [00:20:56] Um, and so, you know, [00:20:58] people always wonder, you know … [00:21:00] And actually it’s, uh, let me step back a [00:21:02] second and, and reframe that. [00:21:04] In s- In, in the States, since we’ve been here, [00:21:06] there’s quite a few groups of people that get [00:21:08] together that are all South African [00:21:10] expats, expatriates. They all sit, [00:21:12] they, they kind of get together on [00:21:14] braai, and they, they bring biltong they’ve [00:21:16] made and you, you know, the whole deal.

[00:21:17] Pierre (2): [00:21:18] And initially we were like, “Hey, this is [00:21:20] awesome. Let’s go to this thing.” And we’d go and [00:21:22] stand there, and a lot of those people were, [00:21:24] were like, “Man, South Africa is so [00:21:26] unsafe. You can’t live there. It’s [00:21:28] impossible.” And then in the n- in the next mouthful [00:21:30] they say, “Oh, I can’t live here. I wish I [00:21:32] was there. I miss the this and that.

[00:21:33] Pierre (2): I miss [00:21:34] the rugby. I miss the biltong,” [00:21:36] and you can’t … You know, the views of C- You know. [00:21:38] They go, well, this person’s living [00:21:40] a diminished life [00:21:42] in a new country where they [00:21:44] wish they were there, but they, they ran away [00:21:46] out of fear, and so now they’re living in [00:21:48] fear in a new place. And, uh, we [00:21:50] never, ever moved because we, we wanted to [00:21:52] leave South Africa.

[00:21:53] Pierre (2): Every time [00:21:54] I … Like, I get g- massive j- [00:21:56] jealousy when I hear that you guys are sitting in South [00:21:58] Africa. I love South Africa, and if it [00:22:00] was, i- if there was the same opportunities [00:22:02] that I have here there, I [00:22:04] would be living there. There’s no doubt in my [00:22:06] mind that I would wanna, wanna be at home. I love [00:22:08] South Africa.

[00:22:08] Pierre (2): I mean, I’ve come alive. [00:22:10] I play with a guy called Brenton Brown. He, [00:22:12] he’s written a lot of big worship songs [00:22:14] and he’s, he’s a, he was a Rhodes Scholar. He [00:22:16] went to, uh, England [00:22:18] when we were, like, 19 or [00:22:20] 20, and he went and studied at Oxford, and then [00:22:22] he wrote a bunch of worship songs like [00:22:24] Lion and the Lamb, Everlasting God, [00:22:26] uh, Your Love Is Amazing, Always Thirsty.

[00:22:27] Pierre (2): [00:22:28] All the first songs I recorded with my band [00:22:30] Naked Lyric, which was before [00:22:32] Tree63, he kind of wrote a lot of [00:22:34] those songs- And, um, [00:22:36] I tour with him now, like I was with him this [00:22:38] weekend, and we, we play, play together [00:22:40] still. Um, but, uh, we were [00:22:42] just talking about how, [00:22:44] um…

[00:22:44] Justinus:

[00:22:44] Pierre (2): Oh, yeah. He’s living in Jeffreys Bay now. [00:22:46] He’s moved back home. You know, and, uh, [00:22:48] this is what I was gonna say. Yeah, whenever we would tour [00:22:50] South Africa together, we would go and play at [00:22:52] like, um, in East London there’s a big [00:22:54] TV place there.

[00:22:55] Pierre (2): I can’t remember what it’s [00:22:56] called. TBN, whatever they are, in [00:22:58] East London there’s a Christian TV. [00:23:00] And we’d go and play at their, their events [00:23:02] and stuff, or we’d go and play [00:23:04] lead worship at different places in South [00:23:06] Africa. And he’d always say, [00:23:08] “Daniel, the Daniel, South Africa Daniel is a [00:23:10] different Daniel to America Daniel.”

[00:23:11] Pierre (2): ‘Cause [00:23:12] as soon as I’d get to, to South [00:23:14] Africa, I’d be like on 10. I wouldn’t [00:23:16] sleep. I would just surf until I [00:23:18] was bleeding, my eyes are bleeding. [00:23:20] And I would, you know, I’d, I’d go out on trail [00:23:22] running and I’d just go nuts and [00:23:24] just go out until the middle of the night [00:23:26] going to all the po- you know, the [00:23:28] bars or restaurants or whatever [00:23:30] just because, and eating Nando’s till I almost [00:23:32] fall over.

[00:23:32] Pierre (2): And it’s just- Hey. [00:23:34] [00:23:36] Nando’s,

[00:23:36] Flip: baby.

[00:23:37] Justinus: Yeah.

[00:23:37] Pierre (2): [00:23:38] The magic

[00:23:38] Justinus: word is

[00:23:39] Pierre (2): [00:23:40] Nando’s. Grillers [00:23:42] in the mist. [00:23:44] Anyway, yeah, yeah, so I, I, I would [00:23:46] just live … I just can’t … I just [00:23:48] love it. It’s, it’s … And also I love [00:23:50] kind of connecting with people [00:23:52] in comedy and all sorts of stuff. But when [00:23:54] people … When I get to South Africa, everyone [00:23:56] understands me, and when I’m here, I’m [00:23:58] kinda having to try and explain my [00:24:00] jokes or, you know, the [00:24:02] stuff that

[00:24:02] Pierre (2): So it’s, it’s, it’s different. [00:24:04] I mean, I’ve learned over 24 years [00:24:06] how to kind of connect with people a lot [00:24:08] here, but I feel much more alive and [00:24:10] at home in South Africa. This is just like, [00:24:12] it’s almost like this is a missions field for [00:24:14] me. Uh, I don’t know if that makes [00:24:16] sense to you guys, but I never, I [00:24:18] never, like, I don’t have

[00:24:18] Pierre (2): I never had that thing. I [00:24:20] traveled, like I said, when I was young, I never really had a [00:24:22] massive desire to be on stage. And when I … I [00:24:24] never had a really, a, a desire to [00:24:26] live outside of South Africa. It’s [00:24:28] just that out of, by default I ended up [00:24:30] just with the opportunity to be here. [00:24:32] So a lo- I know a lot of my friends are like, [00:24:34] “Oh, man, you’re so lucky to be living in America.”

[00:24:35] Pierre (2): And [00:24:36] I’m like, “You don’t understand what you have.” [00:24:38] When I come home, I [00:24:40] just wish that I could make the income [00:24:42] and the lifestyle that I have and [00:24:44] just the, the ministry opportunity that I have [00:24:46] there if, if I could, you know. [00:24:48] Um, and now, now that I’ve got kids, my [00:24:50] daughter’s at University of, um, [00:24:52] uh, Tennessee here, UTK, [00:24:54] and, and my son’s graduating this year [00:24:56] to go to varsity as well.

[00:24:57] Pierre (2): And [00:24:58] so you just … I just know that they’re pretty [00:25:00] much settled here. They love visiting South [00:25:02] Africa, but I can’t see them moving [00:25:04] to South Africa. So my wife’s [00:25:06] not interested. And she’s the most awesome [00:25:08] girl. I don’t … She’s not interested in [00:25:10] living away from our kids when they have [00:25:12] their own kids. So I just don’t see it in [00:25:14] my future unless I make- [00:25:16] Crazy amounts of money to be able to live in both [00:25:18] places for, for a bit of the time.

[00:25:19] Pierre (2): I [00:25:20] don’t see us being able to live there, which is [00:25:22] sad.

[00:25:22] Justinus: That mix in [00:25:24] identity is so fascinating, [00:25:26] um, between [00:25:28] like … And I feel it all the time. I, I [00:25:30] feel like almost more [00:25:32] South African living abroad. But you’re [00:25:34] right, whenever I land up in South [00:25:36] Africa, my heart skips a [00:25:38] beat as the plane [00:25:40] is approaching. There [00:25:42] Flip goes laughing at me again.

[00:25:43] Justinus: We

[00:25:43] Flip: [00:25:44] are, we

[00:25:44] Justinus: are, we are. We- when, uh, [00:25:46] whenever it … It’s like [00:25:48] there’s nothing like that [00:25:50] feeling of approaching the [00:25:52] runway in Johannesburg or Cape [00:25:54] Town. I’m … I feel, [00:25:56] always feel [00:25:58] excited like, like [00:26:00] the, like the night before the first [00:26:02] rugby game I played when I was nine [00:26:04] years old, I couldn’t sleep and I end up [00:26:06] throwing up because I was so nervous.[00:26:08] [00:26:08] Justinus: That’s how I feel every [00:26:10] time before we land in Jo’burg. I feel [00:26:12] like it’s, uh, [00:26:14] it’s just such a magic place. And [00:26:16] like you say, uh, [00:26:18] and, and, and I’m [00:26:20] e- exactly the same place. My kids [00:26:22] has moved on. They like [00:26:24] Philadelphia and Canada. My [00:26:26] wife will never wanna be [00:26:28] permanently away from our kids and our [00:26:30] grandkids, but nothing connects to South [00:26:32] Africa.

[00:26:32] Justinus: And that, and that managing [00:26:34] those dual identities I, I [00:26:36] think is a, is a [00:26:38] fascinating, um, exercise. [00:26:40] So that, that managing those dual [00:26:42] identities is, for me, just like [00:26:44] an ongoing life challenge at [00:26:46] the moment. But Pierre, you clearly [00:26:48] decided very early in your [00:26:50] career not to just be known as a [00:26:52] rugby player. So what, [00:26:54] what drove that decision?

[00:26:55] Justinus: How did you [00:26:56] come to that conclusion, and what was it [00:26:58] like managing that throughout your career [00:27:00] and then the transition after you stopped playing [00:27:02] rugby?

[00:27:03] Pierre: Yeah. I think, [00:27:04] um, a lot of players, well, a lot [00:27:06] of players are not sure what they’re gonna do [00:27:08] afterwards. And like I said, I was actually also [00:27:10] not 100%, 100% sure what [00:27:12] my path’s gonna look like after rugby.

[00:27:13] Pierre: ‘Cause I always thought that … ‘Cause faith was [00:27:16] a big thing in my [00:27:18] life, and it had a [00:27:20] life-changing, uh, [00:27:22] life-changing … It [00:27:24] was a life-changing event in my life at [00:27:26] the age of 20. That was a [00:27:28] radical decision in my life [00:27:30] that actually, uh, [00:27:32] directed my life in this [00:27:34] way, meaning that [00:27:36] my faith in God became alive [00:27:38] and I, I understood my [00:27:40] purpose was connected to what [00:27:42] God wanted me to do.

[00:27:43] Pierre: But [00:27:44] what that entailed, I wasn’t 100% sure. [00:27:46] So even in my, uh, [00:27:48] playing years, I was still actually … [00:27:50] I tri- I tried studies, [00:27:52] and then, uh, I stopped [00:27:54] it ’cause we were like, you know, you’re [00:27:56] studying on a Saturday night, then or, [00:27:58] or, or you’re writing exams on the Monday morning but [00:28:00] you’re playing a Super Rugby final on the Saturday night.

[00:28:01] Pierre: And [00:28:02] I have to be honest, I wasn’t that good a [00:28:04] student to be so motivated for [00:28:06] my studies the Sunday [00:28:08] after the final win. But [00:28:10] again, like I said, I was, I was also [00:28:12] figuring it out what I’m gonna do afterwards. [00:28:14] Um, and [00:28:16] then like my passion has always been, [00:28:18] uh, leadership, uh, [00:28:20] motivation, like coaching, [00:28:22] life coaching.

[00:28:23] Pierre: Um, [00:28:24] and then I, [00:28:26] uh, did a life coaching course, but [00:28:28] still not figured it out. And then as [00:28:30] I journeyed playing [00:28:32] overseas, so forth, now [00:28:34] to do what I’m doing now, it [00:28:36] really is not a career choice. [00:28:38] It’s a calling. Like it, the [00:28:40] calling of my life, the calling of [00:28:42] God upon my life became so strong that [00:28:44] it was something that I could not r- [00:28:46] could not deny anymore.[00:28:48] [00:28:48] Pierre: And that’s why I’m saying it’s funny [00:28:50] because, um, it’s [00:28:52] generational and it’s something that [00:28:54] it’s not for everybody. That’s why [00:28:56] I, I stopped playing. I could have played [00:28:58] probably a few more years. The way the guys are going [00:29:00] on now, they could have played, you know, another eight [00:29:02] more years. Your body must be [00:29:04] broken, but you can carry on playing.

[00:29:05] Pierre: But [00:29:06] I understood my, I understood my [00:29:08] purpose. I understood my life’s [00:29:10] purpose, which was to [00:29:12] build the kingdom of God, to preach the gospel, [00:29:14] and to help people, to tell people [00:29:16] about, uh, Jesus and, and how [00:29:18] much God loves them. So, [00:29:20] um, this was something that actually grew in my [00:29:22] life. It became stronger and stronger.[00:29:24] [00:29:24] Pierre: And like I said, I never thought that I would be [00:29:26] doing this, but this, it really was, [00:29:28] it’s a journey of faith. You [00:29:30] know, we are, we walk by faith. [00:29:32] The journey in front of us is [00:29:34] not clear. And then, [00:29:36] uh, as I continued in my [00:29:38] rugby career, it [00:29:40] became stronger and stronger and [00:29:42] stronger until it, there was a, there was [00:29:44] a few divine point, uh, [00:29:46] a few divine [00:29:48] appointments in my life, if I can call it [00:29:50] like that, that really were like fork in the [00:29:52] road moments [00:29:54] that directed me towards these [00:29:56] things.

[00:29:56] Pierre: You know, I can share about it, [00:29:58] um, which, which, which made it [00:30:00] undeniable for me to turn back [00:30:02] and that like [00:30:04] rooted it and it, it, it [00:30:06] settled it in my heart. And even though it, [00:30:08] it might not make sense to my [00:30:10] natural mind, it was a supernatural [00:30:12] journey, step of [00:30:14] faith that I had to take. And [00:30:16] this was my journey, which I knew.

[00:30:17] Pierre: And, [00:30:18] um, so it, it’s very difficult for [00:30:20] me to, you know, [00:30:22] ’cause this was my journey and everybody, [00:30:24] everybody has to walk out their own journey [00:30:26] after rugby, which I do believe is still a [00:30:28] big challenge. I [00:30:30] speak to my wife quite often about it. I [00:30:32] speak to her about the challenge actually about [00:30:34] finishing rugby.

[00:30:34] Pierre: Even though I knew what I [00:30:36] wanted to do, you still sit with a [00:30:38] lot of tremendous challenges because [00:30:40] of the life you have lived for [00:30:42] 10 to 15 years, the [00:30:44] routines, the, uh, [00:30:46] exposure, uh, [00:30:48] the fame, the hype, [00:30:50] the adrenaline, all those things that are part [00:30:52] of the journey, all of a sudden that’s not [00:30:54] there. And if you’re not [00:30:56] in something or if you’re not sure [00:30:58] about which direction you’re going or if you, if [00:31:00] you don’t have a, a strong [00:31:02] marriage, um- [00:31:04] Something to throw yourself into [00:31:06] that can protect you.

[00:31:07] Pierre: It’s a, [00:31:08] it’s a very difficult journey for a lot of guys [00:31:10] when they finish playing rugby. So I thank [00:31:12] God, you know, I’ve got an amazing [00:31:14] wife. Um, our marriage has always been strong [00:31:16] because we prioritized it. [00:31:18] But, um, yeah, it’s [00:31:20] not an easy thing for guys to find [00:31:22] identity. But I know, I, I know my identity is [00:31:24] in who God made us, like all of us.

[00:31:25] Pierre: Your identity [00:31:26] is actually not in what you do, [00:31:28] it’s actually in the person who God made you to be [00:31:30] and what God called you to do. And each one of [00:31:32] you, each person upon the earth [00:31:34] has a different calling. You have a different, [00:31:36] you have a different journey that you have to take, but your [00:31:38] identity is rooted in who God made you to be, [00:31:40] not what people expect of you.

[00:31:41] Pierre:

[00:31:41] Flip: it’s, [00:31:42] um,

[00:31:42] Flip: what I’m curious [00:31:44] about Pierre and, and Daniel, this is [00:31:46] maybe the, the good question for you two [00:31:48] to follow up is, is when you [00:31:50] move overseas, Pierre, you went to [00:31:52] Japan and Montpellier, um, [00:31:54] and it’s easy, same as [00:31:56] what we spoke about South Africa. It’s easy to be [00:31:58] Christian in South Africa because people understand it.[00:32:00] [00:32:00] Flip: Um, uh, you say [00:32:02] you’re Christian and people accept it and they leave you [00:32:04] out and, you know, that’s, that’s how it is. If [00:32:06] you- If you, like in France, for [00:32:08] example, it’s, it’s a, it’s weird, [00:32:10] so you’re Christian, but you’re not Catholic, so [00:32:12] what are you? You know? So it’s, it’s, it’s [00:32:14] a weird concept. [00:32:16] Um, what did you guys do [00:32:18] to stay grounded, [00:32:20] stay focused, stay, stay [00:32:22] strong in your religion, um, when [00:32:24] you, when you finally moved overseas?

[00:32:25] Flip: Yeah,

[00:32:25] Pierre: I, I [00:32:26] think, um, I’ve always been a big [00:32:28] believer in the local church. I, [00:32:30] I believe, uh, God created [00:32:32] us for family, God created us for [00:32:34] fellowship, and [00:32:36] it’s always been a big part of my life. [00:32:38] Um, even through my playing years, [00:32:40] you know, I was playing for the Bulls and for the [00:32:42] Springboks and, you know, we’d be [00:32:44] playing games on Saturday.

[00:32:45] Pierre: Sunday mornings we went [00:32:46] to church as a family, my wife and I, [00:32:48] meaning that it doesn’t matter what my, [00:32:50] uh, professional life was or what [00:32:52] my profile was, but I [00:32:54] made a commitment that I will go to the house of [00:32:56] God. So when we went overseas, [00:32:58] um, we just carried on in the same way. [00:33:00] When we went to Japan, we [00:33:02] found a church close to us, [00:33:04] um, and Sundays we would go to [00:33:06] church, so we connect [00:33:08] with the family there.

[00:33:09] Pierre: [00:33:10] Family stayed involved [00:33:12] with prayers and like, uh, life [00:33:14] groups and events. [00:33:16] So I think the big thing is always about [00:33:18] connection. You need the right people. You need, you, [00:33:20] you need to be surrounded by the right [00:33:22] people. You need the right leadership [00:33:24] into your life. It’s something that I understood [00:33:26] because I, I just [00:33:28] made a decision regarding these things [00:33:30] because I…

[00:33:31] Pierre: My personal [00:33:32] conviction was just like there’s a lot of people that [00:33:34] profess, um, [00:33:36] their faith, but they were not [00:33:38] committing to it with their [00:33:40] lives, and I just followed the [00:33:42] conviction within my heart and it kept me [00:33:44] grounded. And like I said, it protected me from a lot of [00:33:46] things, protected me [00:33:48] from wrong decisions in a [00:33:50] lot of ways, ending up at the wrong [00:33:52] places.

[00:33:53] Pierre (2): Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s [00:33:54] an interesting question because [00:33:56] living here in the States, especially in [00:33:58] Nashville, it’s the, called the Bible Belt, so [00:34:00] it’s, it’s like you talk about [00:34:02] cultural Christianity, it’s, it’s even [00:34:04] more cultural here than it is [00:34:06] in Cap- in South Africa. In Cape Town’s a, [00:34:08] like a, it’s more of a, you [00:34:10] know, it’s like San Francisco, I guess, [00:34:12] of s- of, of, of Africa.

[00:34:13] Pierre (2): So it’s, [00:34:14] it’s got a m- it’s a melting pot of different [00:34:16] people with lots of cultures and lots of [00:34:18] stuff going on. So you… It, [00:34:20] it’s almost easier to just say, “I’m a Christian [00:34:22] in America.” It’s gonna help you in every [00:34:24] way. Your business. People have like, [00:34:26] you know, their Christianity [00:34:28] as part of their culture. [00:34:30] It actually, like I said, helps you [00:34:32] in business and all that.

[00:34:33] Pierre (2): But, [00:34:34] uh, the funny thing was coming from a [00:34:36] very authentic Place in [00:34:38] South Africa where it was a, it was still a, a [00:34:40] big choice to actually [00:34:42] live a life of faith and e- [00:34:44] especially with the way my dad was walking that [00:34:46] out. Uh, i- you know, and [00:34:48] then moving to somewhere where you [00:34:50] get paid to be a Christian. [00:34:52] It, it made it quite, quite [00:34:54] difficult actually, to be honest, to be honest with [00:34:56] you.

[00:34:56] Pierre (2): Um, and [00:34:58] just, you know, I know that the guys [00:35:00] in the band that were with- i- in the band with [00:35:02] me, um, some of [00:35:04] them would … Some of them were new [00:35:06] Christians coming into [00:35:08] the band and only got saved like [00:35:10] later on in life, and then [00:35:12] kind of immediately thrown into [00:35:14] America to tour. And, [00:35:16] um, being around lots [00:35:18] of different church [00:35:20] situations and lif- different people that all [00:35:22] make their income from their f- from [00:35:24] being a Christian.

[00:35:25] Pierre (2): And, and [00:35:26] that, that … You know, you might think [00:35:28] that’s awesome, but it really isn’t because there’s a [00:35:30] lot of stuff that eventually it’s like [00:35:32] little bits of poison that you eat at every different [00:35:34] event that you go to. Where you see [00:35:36] stuff that you go, “Oh my gosh, is this real?” [00:35:38] You know, “Is this really what is going [00:35:40] on?”

[00:35:40] Pierre (2): Um, and so it, [00:35:42] it just became harder and harder f- [00:35:44] for some of the guys and, you [00:35:46] know, luckily I’d been around a lot of, [00:35:48] a lot of stuff in my life. My dad was a pastor, [00:35:50] so he, he had counseling people a [00:35:52] lot that had str- were struggling and, and [00:35:54] that were saying one thing but doing something else. [00:35:56] So I kind of had a lot of that [00:35:58] background, so it allowed me to kind [00:36:00] of wash off me a lot easier than some of the other [00:36:02] guys.

[00:36:02] Pierre (2): But, so just being [00:36:04] here, although there’s a lot of [00:36:06] Christianity, it’s, it’s … There’s a lot of [00:36:08] stuff that I’ve just seen that I go, “Man, I, I [00:36:10] don’t like that,” you know? Um, [00:36:12] and people that are just kind [00:36:14] of showing that they, [00:36:16] that, you know, they say one thing [00:36:18] but then they’re not really living it out. [00:36:20] Um, my daughter growing up, s- like all of her [00:36:22] friends said, “Yeah, my dad’s a Christian,” and [00:36:24] then eventually you get down to it and you start [00:36:26] realizing, “Hey, man, what’s [00:36:28] going on here?”

[00:36:29] Pierre (2): Um, and [00:36:30] so it, it, it kind of actually warm … [00:36:32] And then the other thing is, you know, all [00:36:34] the way through my life w- I [00:36:36] did … My income was also [00:36:38] tied to my faith and I also [00:36:40] had felt this responsibility, [00:36:42] uh, where I, [00:36:44] if I’m gonna go out and sing about God [00:36:46] then I have to walk the line. And so [00:36:48] it was very easy for me to live [00:36:50] a very solid life of faith ’cause I [00:36:52] knew that people are looking at me and, and I, [00:36:54] I always admired someone like yourself [00:36:56] that’s in rugby, that’s in a, in a world that is [00:36:58] not

[00:36:58] Pierre (2): You’re not being paid to be a Christian. [00:37:00] You know what I mean? So you, your [00:37:02] choice every day is like, “I’m gonna be a light in the [00:37:04] darkness,” instead of me being like, “Hey, I [00:37:06] get to do this and, and you [00:37:08] know, my … it’s directly tied to my income.” [00:37:10] So for the first time when I was, [00:37:12] I s- I guess it was [00:37:14] 2016 or 2017, I started working in a [00:37:16] band called Little Big Town and they’re a big [00:37:18] secular country band [00:37:20] and, and for the first time in my [00:37:22] life actually my paycheck was coming [00:37:24] from something that had nothing to do with [00:37:26] my faith.

[00:37:27] Pierre (2): And, and the [00:37:28] guys I was traveling with were amazing people but [00:37:30] none of them were Christian And so I [00:37:32] was put in a position then to actually go, [00:37:34] “Okay, so now let’s see what you believe.” And, [00:37:36] and weirdly enough, it was really a [00:37:38] challenge for me. Uh, I kind of, [00:37:40] uh, and then touring with Camila Cabello, she’s a [00:37:42] pop singer, and I do- I [00:37:44] went and I did the whole Reputation tour with [00:37:46] Taylor Swift, and we, we were running around all over the [00:37:48] world.

[00:37:48] Pierre (2): And then being, [00:37:50] going, “Well, Daniel, now, now tell me, do you [00:37:52] really believe this stuff, or is it just tied to the [00:37:54] fact that you always had to believe this [00:37:56] stuff for your life?” [00:37:58] Um, and it was a challenging time and, [00:38:00] and it was, it was something that I’m, [00:38:02] I’m s- I’m super stoked that I, I [00:38:04] came out of, you know, walking away going, “I, [00:38:06] I, I do believe this, and I do, [00:38:08] I do want this for myself.”

[00:38:09] Pierre (2): But it was like [00:38:10] walking from your parents’ faith all the way [00:38:12] through to suddenly in your, [00:38:14] you know, late 30s [00:38:16] starting to go, “Do I actually [00:38:18] really believe this?” Um, and I think [00:38:20] everybody has that moment. No matter who you [00:38:22] are, you know, whether you grew up in, [00:38:24] in church or didn’t grow up in church, there’s gonna be [00:38:26] something that’s gonna be a time where you’re [00:38:28] suddenly gonna go, “Is this really true?

[00:38:29] Pierre (2): [00:38:30] Do you really believe this, or is this just something that…” [00:38:32] Um, and, and [00:38:34] walking into that, that environment, [00:38:36] um, it helped me to choose it for [00:38:38] myself for the first time. Um, [00:38:40] and, and to choose things that are more important. [00:38:42] Like, COVID was a crazy [00:38:44] thing because it hit me right at the [00:38:46] top of my music career. I mean, I was, I was [00:38:48] on the road with, I [00:38:50] mean, the biggest bands in the world [00:38:52] and at the time, and then [00:38:54] COVID just kinda shut everything down.[00:38:56] [00:38:56] Pierre (2): Um, and then, you [00:38:58] know, it was like a reset for me, like [00:39:00] amazing, crazy reset. [00:39:02] We, we had no income. My wife’s an [00:39:04] artist, and I’m just was in music. [00:39:06] So all the corporate gigs that I [00:39:08] was doing with my band, the Worship Republic, and [00:39:10] with Brenton Brown, those all got [00:39:12] pushed back ’cause they were, they were these big corporate [00:39:14] fundraising events, and then all the big [00:39:16] touring I was doing also shut down.[00:39:18] [00:39:18] Pierre (2): So I had nothing, no [00:39:20] income. And, um, and so I [00:39:22] went and I got my… My buddy was [00:39:24] one day he said to me, “Why don’t you go get your [00:39:26] insurance adjuster’s license?” And I’m like, ”

[00:39:27] Daniel: What? [00:39:28] [00:39:28] Pierre (2): That’s so… [00:39:30] It’s over there somewhere, dude.” [00:39:32] And he’s like, “No, I think you could do it.” And I was [00:39:34] like, “Okay.” So I [00:39:36] went to Texas and I got my license to, [00:39:38] to be an insurance adjuster, and then [00:39:40] immediately, like a week later, there, there was two [00:39:42] massive hurricanes and they, they, they just [00:39:44] chucked me in the deep end.

[00:39:45] Pierre (2): And, and [00:39:46] then being able to say, “Hey, you know [00:39:48] what? Can I pray with you?” Stuff like [00:39:50] that, that, that, you know, I ne- [00:39:52] it’s so different from, [00:39:54] from what I was doing. Uh, but just to [00:39:56] touch back, Pierre, on what you were saying about your [00:39:58] identity, um, I feel [00:40:00] like, um, a lot of people get [00:40:02] into something that they wanna [00:40:04] be professional at usually [00:40:06] out of…

[00:40:06] Pierre (2): It’s either motivated out of the [00:40:08] fact that they were just born to be that, [00:40:10] or else that they actually [00:40:12] have kind of a deep-seated [00:40:14] insecurity, so they wanna prove everybody wrong, that [00:40:16] they’ve got something. And so a lot of [00:40:18] pe- people become really, really good at [00:40:20] something out of a, out of a [00:40:22] negative kind of space, and [00:40:24] it’s, and that, that often is, [00:40:26] is, is why they are so [00:40:28] deeply wrapped up in, their [00:40:30] identity is so deeply connected to, [00:40:32] to what they do.

[00:40:33] Pierre (2): ‘Cause they, [00:40:34] they were like, “Screw you, I’m gonna [00:40:36] become good at this,” you know? And [00:40:38] so, and so that, that [00:40:40] luckily for me wasn’t my story. I never really [00:40:42] desired to be on stage. I just ended up there [00:40:44] somehow. And I played bass, I [00:40:46] went to university of, to go and study jazz, [00:40:48] and it didn’t really work out ’cause I didn’t wanna be a [00:40:50] jazz player.

[00:40:50] Pierre (2): But I just got the [00:40:52] opportunity based on who I was [00:40:54] and being around, you know. And even [00:40:56] the, like some of the top pl- bands that [00:40:58] I’ve played in here, Tenth Avenue North and, [00:41:00] and, um, all these other artists [00:41:02] that I’ve toured with in the States, it’s [00:41:04] never been because of how good I am as a [00:41:06] musician. It’s always been, “Hey, [00:41:08] this guy’s fun to hang out with.

[00:41:09] Pierre (2): Let’s bring him [00:41:10] along.” ‘Cause there’s way better players [00:41:12] than me, honestly. There’s so many better [00:41:14] bass players in Nashville than me, but I just [00:41:16] get the gig because they say, “Hey, if we’re gonna [00:41:18] take this guy on the bus, would you rather take Daniel [00:41:20] or that guy?” And they go, “Oh, let’s take Daniel. Ah.” [00:41:22] You know?

[00:41:22] Pierre (2): So I get [00:41:24] to go and do this. But [00:41:26] going back to the motivation and the, and the [00:41:28] identity, when ba- when the music stuff ended [00:41:30] for me, I didn’t, I didn’t panic ’cause I was [00:41:32] never Daniel the bass player of 363. [00:41:34] I was, I was just, I just happened [00:41:36] to be Daniel the guy that happened to play [00:41:38] bass in that band. And, [00:41:40] uh, not to say it’s al- it’s always easy, [00:41:42] ’cause sometimes you, you go, you know, you miss that.[00:41:44] [00:41:44] Pierre (2): I miss the b- the massive stages [00:41:46] and some of the… We did like the last Billy [00:41:48] Graham Crusade in New York, so it was [00:41:50] 110,000 people and then, you know, [00:41:52] Bill Clinton sitting next to me on the stage, and [00:41:54] that kind of stuff’s exciting, you know? [00:41:56] Um, but, but, [00:41:58] you know, and it doesn’t make any difference to [00:42:00] me where I play or who I [00:42:02] play for if I don’t get to play.

[00:42:03] Pierre (2): I love [00:42:04] seeing other bands do well. You know, [00:42:06] I, I mentored a lot of young [00:42:08] artists. Like Civil Twilight was a band from [00:42:10] South Africa that was an incredible band, [00:42:12] and, um, I, I, I started [00:42:14] working with Steve, the singer, when he was [00:42:16] 13. I used to hang out with him and [00:42:18] taught him how to play bass and then he became this [00:42:20] massive star.

[00:42:20] Pierre (2): You might not have heard of them, but [00:42:22] they were really big in the s- in the States at [00:42:24] one point. Um, [00:42:26] and just being able to help Heinz make all his [00:42:28] records that were Christian. I [00:42:30] produced, you know, his records, and [00:42:32] he’s such a king. And so [00:42:34] just to see other people’s music or see other [00:42:36] people’s stuff, that’s more exciting to me than, [00:42:38] than actually being up there myself, honestly.

[00:42:39] Pierre (2): Just to [00:42:40] see them gr- flourish. And it [00:42:42] seems like, Pierre, I might be wrong, [00:42:44] but it seems like- Just [00:42:46] having met you a little, a little while ago, that [00:42:48] that’s also something for you that is, [00:42:50] is probably more [00:42:52] exciting, is to see other people [00:42:54] flourish in their gifting. I mean, am I [00:42:56] wrong?

[00:42:56] Pierre: No, it is. You know, we are, [00:42:58] we are servants.

[00:42:59] Pierre: We are called to be [00:43:00] servants and, um, to walk in [00:43:02] humility, and we are all working out [00:43:04] our own salvation. We have been [00:43:06] saved by grace, [00:43:08] but we are working out our own journey. We’re [00:43:10] figuring it out, walking, uh, by [00:43:12] faith.

[00:43:12] Justinus: I think it’s interesting, Pierre, [00:43:14] and I think part of the challenge [00:43:16] I faced in [00:43:18] my own journey, which I probably [00:43:20] haven’t fully walked yet, [00:43:22] is I remember growing [00:43:24] up in church where we grew [00:43:26] up, um, Skelgrounds Church [00:43:28] and, and here, [00:43:30] there. And I still [00:43:32] remember some of the overhang [00:43:34] of apartheid and how, [00:43:36] um, [00:43:38] from the pulpit [00:43:40] people tried to [00:43:42] justify some of those things [00:43:44] and I still struggle [00:43:46] sometimes to reconcile, [00:43:48] um, that a little.

[00:43:49] Justinus: And, and I [00:43:50] mean, I understand it, [00:43:52] it was the cultural context at [00:43:54] the time and, and there was [00:43:56] lots of challenges, but I think [00:43:58] that’s hangovers like that [00:44:00] is what hurts [00:44:02] Christianity in the long [00:44:04] run in a meaningful way.

[00:44:05] Pierre: [00:44:06] Well, I, I think, and that’s where [00:44:08] you have to discover it for yourself [00:44:10] because, um, even in [00:44:12] that era in South Africa, [00:44:14] it was [00:44:16] unscriptural.

[00:44:17] Pierre: Meaning, it’s [00:44:18] ungodly to [00:44:20] sectionalize people [00:44:22] because, um, God [00:44:24] created all flesh. God loves all people, et [00:44:26] cetera, et cetera. So we as human be- [00:44:28] beings in the spirit of Africa, and [00:44:30] even the state and the church was very [00:44:32] connected, which was wrong. [00:44:34] So even with the [00:44:36] new era in South Africa, uh, [00:44:38] opened up a new door, uh, for South [00:44:40] Africa where everybody was now, [00:44:42] uh, equal even in their voting rights.

[00:44:43] Pierre: [00:44:44] But before God, all people have [00:44:46] always been the same. So that’s … [00:44:48] You know, the greatest enemy [00:44:50] to faith is not, uh, [00:44:52] atheism or agnosticism. The [00:44:54] greatest enemy of faith is a thing called [00:44:56] religion. It’s a form of [00:44:58] godliness, but it denies the power of [00:45:00] God.

[00:45:00] Pierre:

[00:45:00] Flip: Yeah. A wh- [00:45:02] a whole another subject. [00:45:04] Yeah. Um- A [00:45:06] beefy one. Daniel, I wanna, uh … [00:45:08] That, your, your story earlier from, you know, [00:45:10] from COVID, uh, it’s such, [00:45:12] um, it’s such a testament of [00:45:14] South African grit again, you know?

[00:45:15] Flip: Oh, [00:45:16] yeah. You know, nor- normal people would [00:45:18] just, you know, go and pick up [00:45:20] COVID and just, you know, [00:45:22] “The world is against me,” you know. [00:45:24] Um, and then, you know, [00:45:26] leave everything. Going from Taylor [00:45:28] Sw- with Taylor Swift to go climbing on [00:45:30] roofs and hugging people, you know, that’s, that’s a, [00:45:32] that’s a big old story. [00:45:34] Um, a- and [00:45:36] also, you know, I’m, I’m[00:45:38] [00:45:38] Flip: The world is, is grateful you [00:45:40] didn’t become a jazz artist, [00:45:42] you know? [00:45:44] Um- I can- It’s true. I, I, I [00:45:46] remember, you know, personally, um, [00:45:48] um, just, just in this [00:45:50] Goldcroft story is, you know, I’m, I’m [00:45:52] Afrikaans and grew up [00:45:54] in the NG and, um, [00:45:56] went to school in Bloemfontein, so, you know, [00:45:58] 363 was [00:46:00] like AC/DC basically- … to

[00:46:01] Flip: [00:46:02] [00:46:04] the

[00:46:05] Flip: NG guys.

[00:46:05] Flip: [00:46:06] Um, you know, so, so, so, [00:46:08] so you s- you, you said [00:46:10] that, you know, you, you, you know, [00:46:12] you, you moved to a place where you made [00:46:14] money out of religion, but, um, [00:46:16] surely the, the pushback [00:46:18] wasn’t, wasn’t as [00:46:20] easy when you started out in South Africa [00:46:22] with, like, a, a, a rock religion [00:46:24] band. Um, or was that a, [00:46:26] it’s just an Afrikaans perception or [00:46:28] was it, it, was it a whole another world when you [00:46:30] guys went to America and, and discovered [00:46:32] the new frontiers?[00:46:34] [00:46:34] Pierre (2): I mean, we were ve- very blessed, [00:46:36] honestly. The, the, the band got signed to, [00:46:38] to Kingsway, which is a British label, the [00:46:40] same kind of crew as Delirious and all those [00:46:42] guys. Um, and [00:46:44] then kind of, uh, got [00:46:46] discovered by Inpop, which is a, [00:46:48] a label here that was set up [00:46:50] specifically to try and sign bands from other [00:46:52] countries, Australia and, you know.

[00:46:53] Pierre (2): [00:46:54] And, um, and in the first year we [00:46:56] were here, we got a Dove Award nomination, [00:46:58] which was like the kind of Christian Grammy [00:47:00] kind of setup. So and [00:47:02] then, you know, Tre- uh, Treasure [00:47:04] and, um, and [00:47:06] Look What You’ve Done, those songs got on Christian [00:47:08] radio here. And then [00:47:10] honestly, the real big thing that happened for [00:47:12] us was we were actually recording [00:47:14] our third album.

[00:47:15] Pierre (2): The [00:47:16] second album we did did really well in South Africa [00:47:18] ’cause it’s called The Life and Times of [00:47:20] Absolute Truth, and it was a kind of rock, [00:47:22] rock-based album and that opened a lot of [00:47:24] doors for us to tour in South Africa at a pretty high [00:47:26] level. Um, but [00:47:28] then that album didn’t really do well in the States [00:47:30] ’cause Christian radio here has

[00:47:31] Pierre (2): [00:47:32] They’re very, very focused on, [00:47:34] you know, it having a lot of, they [00:47:36] call it Jesus per minute. [00:47:38] And those [00:47:40] songs on that second album were, were more [00:47:42] kind of … John, [00:47:44] John’s an amazing songwriter, and he, [00:47:46] his, his kind of [00:47:48] struggle from being a new [00:47:50] Christian to actually realizing that hey, life’s [00:47:52] still difficult even if you are a [00:47:54] Christian, that, those songs were [00:47:56] not like hyper, hyper kind [00:47:58] of like rah, rah Christian [00:48:00] songs.

[00:48:00] Pierre (2): So they, they didn’t really [00:48:02] connect on Christian radio here. So [00:48:04] then … And that was a big budget album, [00:48:06] so the label was like, “You have to do [00:48:08] it. The next album has to be big, otherwise we’re [00:48:10] gonna drop you from the record deal.” [00:48:12] Uh, and so they s- so we were like, we [00:48:14] recorded this whole new album, and then they said, “Okay, [00:48:16] but you have to record one worship song on that [00:48:18] album.”

[00:48:18] Pierre (2): And so we’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:48:20] whatever.” And then they said, “We … What song do you wanna [00:48:22] record?” And we were like, “Well, we, we’re friends with [00:48:24] Matt Redman, so he’s written a song called [00:48:26] Blessed Be Your Name.” So we recorded that [00:48:28] song, and that song became [00:48:30] song of the decade in America on Christian [00:48:32] radio. It was the most played s- [00:48:34] mo- most played song in [00:48:36] Christian radio for over 10 years, [00:48:38] which is crazy.

[00:48:38] Pierre (2): Wow. [00:48:40] And that’s at a time … You know that song I Can Only [00:48:42] Imagine? Have you heard that song? [00:48:44] Anyway, it’s a massive song [00:48:46] from Casting Crowns, uh, I mean, uh, [00:48:48] from MercyMe. Um, and [00:48:50] tha- that, yeah, MercyMe, and that, [00:48:52] even that song was so huge and it [00:48:54] crossed over into the mainstream, but even Blessed [00:48:56] Be Your Name even on Christian radio was bigger than [00:48:58] that.

[00:48:58] Pierre (2): So it’s wild. And so that [00:49:00] opened massive, massive doors for us. [00:49:02] Gave, it gave us a lot of [00:49:04] opportunity. It wasn’t a struggle. It was a struggle [00:49:06] initially because we were on a, [00:49:08] on Festival Con Dios, which is a tour [00:49:10] around the States. We were in a mini, we were in a [00:49:12] van with nine of us driving around, [00:49:14] and John had just had his baby.

[00:49:15] Pierre (2): [00:49:16] So it, it was … And financially we were really [00:49:18] struggling in the very beginning. [00:49:20] Um, but we always knew we were working [00:49:22] towards something, so it wasn’t like- [00:49:24] Um, and I’m trying to, trying to answer your question. [00:49:26] Your, your question was, was it difficult moving [00:49:28] into the States? Yes, from [00:49:30] a financial perspective and just trying [00:49:32] to make it work.

[00:49:33] Pierre (2): When you live in a, in a [00:49:34] little van with nine people, [00:49:36] you basically are family, and [00:49:38] then it’s, it’s like you s- you have [00:49:40] to kind of work through who you are. [00:49:42] And you get to [00:49:44] see each other’s sides. I’m sure it’s the same in [00:49:46] rugby, you know. You guys are traveling around and you’re [00:49:48] basically brothers, and you, and you [00:49:50] realize, “I don’t really like this dude.”

[00:49:51] Pierre (2): [00:49:52] And so all your [00:49:54] ugliness is, is, is on display. [00:49:56] Um, and you have to have grace for each other and [00:49:58] then, you know, you all grew up in [00:50:00] different environments and so it [00:50:02] was difficult on that level. But as far as the music [00:50:04] stuff, it just kind of made a way for it for [00:50:06] us. Um, and it [00:50:08] was, it was… it wasn’t difficult on, on [00:50:10] that level ’cause it just kind of opened up for [00:50:12] us, yeah.

[00:50:12] Pierre (2): And then coming back, the hardest [00:50:14] part was coming to back to South Africa in those [00:50:16] early years, 2002 and [00:50:18] ‘3, when we had, like, number [00:50:20] one songs on, on Five FM, [00:50:22] and we’d go and play at, like, on the beach [00:50:24] in Durban with the, the Springbok Nude [00:50:26] Girls one night and 363 the next [00:50:28] night for, like, this, the Mr. Price [00:50:30] Pro, you know.

[00:50:30] Pierre (2): And it’s like [00:50:32] 10, 15,000 people all [00:50:34] singing your songs at the top of their voice. [00:50:36] And then coming back to the States, [00:50:38] at that point we hadn’t had [00:50:40] Blessed Be Your Name yet, and then going [00:50:42] into, like, a, a youth group somewhere in [00:50:44] Arkansas with, like, 10 people [00:50:46] going, you know. [00:50:48] And so having to [00:50:50] navigate, like, these [00:50:52] giant- Humbling, humbling

[00:50:53] Pierre (2): yeah, it’s [00:50:54] humbling. It’s, it, it’s totally humbling. [00:50:56] Um, and then the other way around, going [00:50:58] back to the States and playing [00:51:00] these giant shows with, with Blessed Be Your [00:51:02] Name and then going back to South Africa where it’s kind of [00:51:04] changed a bit or, or going to play in [00:51:06] other countries. It’s, it’s, it’s a weird thing to [00:51:08] be one day you’re, you’re like in front [00:51:10] of huge pe- amounts of people and the next [00:51:12] day nobody knows who you are.

[00:51:12] Pierre (2): So it’s just, it is [00:51:14] a humbling career. It’s an interesting way to [00:51:16] live.

[00:51:16] Flip: Yeah. That’s, um, [00:51:18] that’s incredible stories. [00:51:20] We have guys playing rugby now [00:51:22] looking into the future [00:51:24] thinking, “What the hell am I gonna [00:51:26] do next year? Contract’s up. [00:51:28] Um, I have no [00:51:30] idea, no direction.” [00:51:32] What advice would you give them?

[00:51:33] Pierre: That’s [00:51:34] a broad question, hey.

[00:51:35] Pierre: [00:51:36] Um, that’s such a broad question [00:51:38] to answer. But the first thing is [00:51:40] always that I would tell them [00:51:42] is you have to, you [00:51:44] have to connect with God, uh, [00:51:46] ’cause he’ll be the source of your life [00:51:48] and he’ll be your guiding light. [00:51:50] But like I shared [00:51:52] also, I believe, especially when you [00:51:54] finish, you need, you need to be surrounded by [00:51:56] good people.

[00:51:57] Pierre: Um, you need to find [00:51:58] those people very quickly. And one thing [00:52:00] that rugby actually does is it does give [00:52:02] you opportunity. Uh, you get to [00:52:04] meet a lot of people. [00:52:06] And, you know, if you [00:52:08] can surround yourself with good people [00:52:10] that can place you within an environment [00:52:12] that is structured [00:52:14] Um, and that can assist you, and I [00:52:16] think now also the players [00:52:18] associations have grown quite a lot, so they help, they help [00:52:20] the players a lot with even with off [00:52:22] finishing up, um, [00:52:24] you know, a psycho- [00:52:26] psychological, um, assistance and [00:52:28] mental health.

[00:52:29] Pierre: ‘Cause that’s, those are [00:52:30] big things because you, you, you’re out of this [00:52:32] environment that was so structured [00:52:34] and high performance where you [00:52:36] used to be a professional [00:52:38] and you used to be a master of your [00:52:40] craft, and immediately it stops. [00:52:42] And now, you know, the same thing [00:52:44] happens actually to CEOs of companies [00:52:46] that when they f- when they finish up, uh, [00:52:48] retiring.

[00:52:48] Pierre: They basically, if they don’t find [00:52:50] something to do, they, they [00:52:52] implode because they, they’re so used [00:52:54] to working under such amount of [00:52:56] pressure to perform. So [00:52:58] I would tell guys, um, [00:53:00] they must look at their opportunities, and they [00:53:02] must just start somewhere, [00:53:04] um, to get involved into structure [00:53:06] again. And if they’re not sure what they [00:53:08] wanna do, but they must just start.

[00:53:09] Pierre: They must just [00:53:10] start going so they can figure out what it [00:53:12] is that they actually want. [00:53:14] Um, some guys, uh, take [00:53:16] off, um, to figure out what they wanna [00:53:18] do. So it’s a very difficult question to [00:53:20] answer, but I, I say you must [00:53:22] use the opportunities that you are given, and [00:53:24] you must surround yourself with good people.

[00:53:25] Pierre: If I say [00:53:26] good people, people that are, that you are [00:53:28] willing to listen to, and people that [00:53:30] will tell you the truth, and people that will [00:53:32] help you, um, make the [00:53:34] right decisions, uh, [00:53:36] phasing yourself into the next [00:53:38] five years of your life.

[00:53:39] Justinus: And for [00:53:40] you, Daniel, if you had to give advice [00:53:42] to young creatives and [00:53:44] artists who, who [00:53:46] potentially have opportunity to, [00:53:48] to come to the States or go to a different [00:53:50] market, what would be you [00:53:52] think key for them to be able to [00:53:54] do that transition successfully?

[00:53:55] Pierre (2): [00:53:56] Yeah, that’s interesting. I, I mean, you, you don’t know [00:53:58] how many people have called me from South Africa [00:54:00] and said, “You’re the guy living in Nashville. [00:54:02] How do we get, you know, to, to do what [00:54:04] you did?” Or, “How do we move there?” [00:54:06] Or, um, if I could [00:54:08] take you down to Broadway [00:54:10] tonight and we could go watch the [00:54:12] bands playing down there, there’s thousands [00:54:14] of bands playing in clubs down in [00:54:16] Nashville every night.

[00:54:17] Pierre (2): It’s part of the [00:54:18] tourist scene, but a lot of those [00:54:20] players and a lot of those people are playing [00:54:22] cover songs of country songs, you know, you [00:54:24] know, Tequila, whatever, and, and [00:54:26] they actually really wish they [00:54:28] were in– They, they moved to Nashville to try and [00:54:30] make a career for themselves, and [00:54:32] then they, and they’re good players, but they end up [00:54:34] playing, you know, tourist [00:54:36] music because it’s just [00:54:38] so crazy here to try and get [00:54:40] noticed.

[00:54:40] Pierre (2): And the way music is, in the old [00:54:42] days when we sold CDs, [00:54:44] there was something physical you were selling [00:54:46] that would give you income. And so there were a lot [00:54:48] of middle range bands, like people that could [00:54:50] just go on the road and make a living ’cause you’re selling [00:54:52] something, right? And you play the gig, and then [00:54:54] everyone goes and buys your CDs, and it’s enough money [00:54:56] to keep going.

[00:54:57] Pierre (2): Then when that all went [00:54:58] away, it kind of [00:55:00] deleted the middle class of [00:55:02] music, if you know what I mean. You’re either like a kid [00:55:04] from, in high school that’s borrowed your dad’s van [00:55:06] and you’re traveling around playing music t- and [00:55:08] making no money, or you’re like an [00:55:10] established artist, like either a legacy [00:55:12] artist that made your, your kind of [00:55:14] legacy known when there was still money around, [00:55:16] or else you just are one of the very [00:55:18] few pop people that are really kicking off now [00:55:20] and the label’s 100% behind you.[00:55:22] [00:55:22] Pierre (2): So it’s, it’s not as easy. The barrier to [00:55:24] entry is a lot harder. [00:55:26] Um, and so a lot of people move to Nashville [00:55:28] thinking, “That’s the place I’ve gotta be.” [00:55:30] If you’re a songwriter and that’s your main [00:55:32] mission, I still think it’s a great place to [00:55:34] come. But if you’re like an artist wanting [00:55:36] to k- kind of put your [00:55:38] stuff out, I, I’m a firm believer in [00:55:40] blooming where you’re planted.

[00:55:41] Pierre (2): So if [00:55:42] you’re in living, even if you’re living in George, [00:55:44] not … And, and like if Pierre [00:55:46] wants to start a music career, [00:55:48] which I’d encourage. Listen, I

[00:55:49] Pierre: used to [00:55:50] sing choir at school, bro. If Pierre’s [00:55:52] got s- He’s a,

[00:55:52] Pierre (2): he’s a great

[00:55:53] Flip: singer. [00:55:54] [00:55:54] Pierre (2): I’m sure. I, I can, I can [00:55:56] tell. I know. I’m, I, I can [00:55:58] recognize a good artist when I see one.

[00:55:59] Pierre (2): [00:56:00] Yeah, so, so if he … Like let’s [00:56:02] say he wanted to sing, and I would [00:56:04] say like the world is so small now with [00:56:06] technology and, and stuff that if you’ve got, [00:56:08] if you’ve got an opportunity to play where you [00:56:10] live and you’ve got your support base around you, [00:56:12] why would you leave and uproot your [00:56:14] plant and go try plant somewhere else?

[00:56:15] Pierre (2): [00:56:16] You’ve got the opportunity to perform. [00:56:18] Just do what you do where you are [00:56:20] and be … You know, e- [00:56:22] eventually your music should take you somewhere like a horse [00:56:24] dra- dragging a cart. A lot of people [00:56:26] try put the, you know, put thems- the cart [00:56:28] in front of the horse, uh, because they [00:56:30] think they get impatient or whatever it is.[00:56:32] [00:56:32] Pierre (2): Uh, if you just are authentically [00:56:34] yourself as a, as an artist and you [00:56:36] just do what you do really, really well where you [00:56:38] live, and then use the [00:56:40] tools that you’ve been given now the … to [00:56:42] like put stuff up on TikTok or whatever it [00:56:44] is. I don’t, um … [00:56:46] These newfangled devices the children are [00:56:48] using. You know? [00:56:50] No, I’m just saying just like do, do [00:56:52] stuff that

[00:56:52] Pierre (2): Use, use the technology [00:56:54] because there’s people all over the world that are [00:56:56] just finding their place [00:56:58] very easily because of the fact that they’re [00:57:00] able to expose themselves to everybody in a [00:57:02] great, in, in, in a, in a way. And if your [00:57:04] music, if your music’s good, it’s gonna [00:57:06] find a home. Um, if your so- [00:57:08] if your songs writing, if your songwriting [00:57:10] is good, it’s gonna fi- that song will find a [00:57:12] home.

[00:57:12] Pierre (2): Um, it’s an interesting time [00:57:14] with AI and all that stuff that’s going on, but I [00:57:16] still think there’s, that, that people are [00:57:18] fearful of that, but I still think there’s, there’s … [00:57:20] The, the, the world’s still [00:57:22] massive for people to be able to do art and to be [00:57:24] able to do music. And so I would [00:57:26] just encourage you, be, be the [00:57:28] best you can be where you are.

[00:57:29] Pierre (2): [00:57:30] And if, if that opens doors for you, then walk [00:57:32] through those doors. Don’t be fearful. Just [00:57:34] go for it. Yeah. That’s what I would say. [00:57:36] [00:57:36] Justinus: Talking about where you are, [00:57:38] um, as we wrap [00:57:40] up, we wanna give you guys an opportunity [00:57:42] to, to ask each other questions. [00:57:44] So, uh, Daniel, do you [00:57:46] wanna shoot and, and ask Pierre a [00:57:48] question?

[00:57:49] Pierre (2): How do you get such [00:57:50] big biceps? I

[00:57:51] Pierre: train. I used to [00:57:52] train with Flip.

[00:57:53] Flip: [00:57:54] Yeah, I had to stand on one [00:57:56] arm and keep the weights up while another guy [00:57:58] on the other arm. That’s, that’s hard. [00:58:00] Uh,

[00:58:00] Pierre: now

[00:58:01] Pierre (2): let [00:58:02] me think of a serious question. Give me, give [00:58:04] me, like, one second to think about it.

[00:58:05] Pierre:

[00:58:05] Pierre (2): [00:58:06] Yeah, Pierre, maybe I can ask you that question. [00:58:08] Uh, I’ve, I’ve got a thought. So if … [00:58:10] Who’s, who’s a, a young rugby [00:58:12] player that I should keep my eyes open for [00:58:14] now in, in the next little while? Who’d, who [00:58:16] do you think I should be watching [00:58:18] for?

[00:58:18] Pierre: Yes, South Africa is producing [00:58:20] some incredible talent. That’s just … I [00:58:22] mean, and even now it’s like, it seems like [00:58:24] South African rugby is just getting stronger and [00:58:26] stronger. Rossie is, [00:58:28] like, putting in structures all [00:58:30] through from the seniors up [00:58:32] until school level. So [00:58:34] look, I think, um, [00:58:36] I think obviously the young, [00:58:38] uh, prodigy from, [00:58:40] from Paul, Marcus Miller, I think [00:58:42] really is somebody to look out for, the [00:58:44] outside center.

[00:58:44] Pierre: He looks like an [00:58:46] incredible talent. Um, [00:58:48] very level-headed, [00:58:50] and he’s got a high work rate, [00:58:52] a great attitude in the [00:58:54] game. So, you know, I, [00:58:56] I think he’s gonna definitely make [00:58:58] his debut within the next two years. [00:59:00] Um, so [00:59:02] he’s definitely somebody to look out for. [00:59:04] But I co- [00:59:06] He’s the only name that I can really get off my head now, [00:59:08] so it’s not that I’m too much in tune with everything [00:59:10] that’s going on in the, in the rugby [00:59:12] world.

[00:59:13] Pierre: But yeah, have your eyes [00:59:14] on him. He’s 19, right? Yeah, he’s [00:59:16] actually still 18. He’s turning 19 this [00:59:18] year, so. Wow. [00:59:20] So he’s incredible talented. [00:59:22] And there’s

[00:59:22] Flip: a, there’s a, there’s a young [00:59:24] Spies, there’s a young Spies coming as well [00:59:26] somewhere.

[00:59:26] Pierre: Yeah, we’ll see what happens to the … [00:59:28] I’ve got two boys, so we’ll see what happens with [00:59:30] them.

[00:59:30] Pierre: So, uh, Daniel, if I had [00:59:32] to ask you a question, I have to think because I [00:59:34] actually wanted to ask you about, [00:59:36] um

[00:59:36] Pierre: Okay, let me ask you, so [00:59:38] what, what would make you move back to South [00:59:40] Africa? [00:59:42] Gosh. Just na- just name the [00:59:44] number.

[00:59:44] Daniel: We can make a plan. You talk about [00:59:46] money.

[00:59:47] Pierre (2): [00:59:48] Yeah. I think, I [00:59:50] think if, if, if my, one of [00:59:52] my kids had a, had a great [00:59:54] opportunity there and, like, my daughter’s [00:59:56] studying business and, um, and [00:59:58] she’s in the fashion scene a little bit at the moment.[01:00:00] [01:00:00] Pierre (2): If she got, like, a, a great [01:00:02] job and, and it took her, her to South [01:00:04] Africa and she had an opportunity, [01:00:06] I think that would make, a- allow us to [01:00:08] follow, uh, follow her [01:00:10] there. Um, I’m kind of [01:00:12] tied in this, with, with this amazing girl [01:00:14] called Samantha, and I’m trying to [01:00:16] impress her still. So [01:00:18] she’s more important to me than, than where I [01:00:20] live.

[01:00:20] Pierre (2): And so if she’s keen to go, I [01:00:22] would leave. You know, we, we were just, like [01:00:24] I said, with, with Brenton this weekend, and he lives [01:00:26] in J-Bay now. Um, [01:00:28] and he’s fr- he’s from Malibu originally, [01:00:30] so he’s a s- great songwriter, but he’s living [01:00:32] there, and he’s, he’s a surfer as well. And [01:00:34] I mean, living in landlocked like I am, [01:00:36] it’s just, it’s crazy.

[01:00:37] Pierre (2): So we, we [01:00:38] just … I’ve been training for that. So I, I’m [01:00:40] just trying to stay fit so that I can still surf when I [01:00:42] get home. But, um, yeah, I would, [01:00:44] I would love to, I’d love to be in South [01:00:46] Africa.

[01:00:46] Pierre (2): I’d love to live there. If I can, [01:00:48] if I can do well enough to be able to [01:00:50] work part of the year there and [01:00:52] then still be able to come back, I [01:00:54] think that would … Obviously, that’s everybody’s dream. But, [01:00:56] um, man, like [01:00:58] I said, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s really hard [01:01:00] not living there, honestly. [01:01:02] [01:01:02] Justinus: Okay. So to wrap it up, [01:01:04] on 13th of [01:01:06] November of [01:01:08] 2027, we are all [01:01:10] hoping that the Boks, Rassie, [01:01:12] Siya, and co.

[01:01:13] Justinus: will be going [01:01:14] for the three-peat. If we are [01:01:16] lucky enough to experience [01:01:18] that, where do you think you’ll be [01:01:20] watching the game from?

[01:01:21] Pierre (2): Yeah, I’ll [01:01:22] probably be in that Irish bar, [01:01:24] yeah. Unless I get to be at [01:01:26] home, which would be, which would be a, a [01:01:28] absolute blessing to be, I mean, to be in [01:01:30] South Africa at that time would be [01:01:32] so, so special.

[01:01:33] Pierre (2): [01:01:34] Um- Yeah, it almost ma- it almost [01:01:36] makes me cry thinking about just being [01:01:38] amongst the, our people just watching [01:01:40] that would be just so [01:01:42] awesome. I mean, we’re [01:01:44] like a little remnant here in Nashville. You, you [01:01:46] kind of meet people you’ve never met before, but [01:01:48] you all kind of band together and get [01:01:50] excited and it’s, it’s pretty cool, but it’s [01:01:52] nothing like being at home.

[01:01:53] Pierre (2): What about, [01:01:54] what about you, Pierre?

[01:01:55] Pierre: Yeah, I, [01:01:56] I, I have to be honest, I, [01:01:58] I think I would be at [01:02:00] home with my [01:02:02] family or there might be [01:02:04] a very slight small chance that I [01:02:06] might be in Australia for [01:02:08] that game. So either way it’s [01:02:10] gonna be amazing ’cause we’re gonna do [01:02:12] it. That’s the dream.

[01:02:13] Flip: That’s the dream. [01:02:14] That’s the dream to be there.

[01:02:15] Flip: Oh,

[01:02:15] Justinus: man. [01:02:16] It will be insane. I [01:02:18] mean, I, I reckon I’m gonna be in [01:02:20] Australia whether I get a ticket for the [01:02:22] game or not. That’s what we did in [01:02:24] 2023. I just went to Paris [01:02:26] without a ticket and we ended up in the [01:02:28] stadium and it’s just the most amazing [01:02:30] experience.

[01:02:30] Pierre:

[01:02:30] Flip: Oh, [01:02:32] that’s funny. Yeah. Thank you very [01:02:34] much guys. Uh, this was lovely.

[01:02:35] Daniel: Ja, thanks [01:02:36] for having us. So good to meet you [01:02:38] guys. Yeah. Pierre, I’m coming to [01:02:40] visit you. Yes, please.

[01:02:41] Pierre:

[01:02:41] Justinus: Well, [01:02:42] thanks guys. That was a [01:02:44] wonderful conversation. Really [01:02:46] appreciate it. Like I said, it, [01:02:48] the two of you completely [01:02:50] intertwined with some of the best years of my life [01:02:52] in my 20s, um, [01:02:54] watching at Lofters and, and listening to the [01:02:56] beats on the radio.

[01:02:56] Justinus: So it was [01:02:58] surreal for me to, to have this [01:03:00] conversation with you and I really appreciate your [01:03:02] insights and your contributions [01:03:04] No, it’s awesome.

[01:03:04] Pierre (2):

[01:03:04] Pierre: No, thanks, Justinus. Thanks [01:03:06] for having us. It was great to chat with you [01:03:08] guys, and all the very best for the rest [01:03:10] of the [01:03:12] conversations you’re gonna have in the future.