WTAG – Episode 3 – Hein and Corne Audio

[00:00:00] Justinus: Welcome to Winning The Away Game, the podcast that talks about business life outside South Africa and Spring Book Rugby. I’m Ya Rio, co-founder of We Think Code. And my co-host is the legend himself, the giant flip

[00:00:32] Flip: just, and, uh, we’ve got two exceptional guests today. The man, the legend, uh, a euro I grew up, uh, watching and he shook my hand when I was 19 years old and I didn’t wanna wash my hands, he is such, he’s such a great guy. Uh, great to have you here.

[00:00:47] Corne: Thanks very much. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:49] Justinus: And with him, we have one of those people that I just instantly connected with when we were on a call a few weeks ago. And I just felt like we had so much shared ambition and, and objectives and what we wanna achieve.

[00:01:04] Another fellow South African living abroad and blazing at trial. Hein welcome, uh, to winning the Away game. Thanks Justin. It’s good to be with you guys. So the first question we always love to ask No pressure guys, is. Tell us about your personal favorite spring book memory. Hein. I dunno if you want to go first.

[00:01:23] Well, my most recent, there’s

[00:01:25] Hein: so many, um, you know, quite a significant thing actually is that when I moved to Sweden, I lost, uh, rugby. This is kind of, it hasn’t reached the north, you know. But, uh, at the last World Cup, we booked out a local pub in Gothenburg. And, uh, I got invited to join one of the games, in fact, the final, and it was 50 South Africans expats here in Sweden in the same bar, taking over the place singing from Shores, the Law, so all the way through to Saudi Maori.

[00:01:55] So it was, it was just absolutely incredible. And the thing is, because I can’t see I wrote in three star Africans around the table next to me to explain, you know, the, the TV commentary is not quite radio commentary. It’s not, you know, the, the guys don’t, it’s not hand on ball all the time. So these three star Africans had complete different interpretations of the rules of what the ref is doing.

[00:02:16] So I was trying to watch three games at the same time, you know, but at least we won even though he won, won Point. So it was pretty ama it was pretty amazing. That’s awesome. Thanks.

[00:02:26] Justinus: Appreciate it. Goodnight.

[00:02:28] Corne: Yeah. So my, obviously my favorite memory is my debut. Had the privilege of being captain in, in my debut game against Italy, and we won by a record score at that time, 101 North.

[00:02:41] So yeah, it was a, was a special memory. Things started really well for me, but that didn’t really end that well. That’s another story. Oh

[00:02:49] Flip: yeah. That’s, that’s incredible. Uh, a corner, uh, we spoke last night about it actually shows you how far Italy has come as a rugby nation, that they, they’re competitive.

[00:02:59] You know, obviously running out for the spring box is a great opportunity. Every young South African boy and you play rugby, you dream of, of playing, playing for the spring box one day. Uh, you managed to captain it, uh, in your first game. Tell us a little bit, where it all started, you know, Zambia and then Ball boys.

[00:03:14] What Gerald, what made, what made Corner Corner, um, um, to become captain?

[00:03:20] Corne: Flip. So I grew up in Zambia. My parents were both from the free states. My parents thought, no, there’s no real opportunity for us to go to a good school in Zambia. So the, the opportunity was either go to ine, try and get into great college or in Paul, where my, my grandmother and grandfather lived at the time.

[00:03:41] So they said, look, let’s try Paul. And went to Paul and we got into Paul Boys High. And at the age of four, I basically got on the plane and went, went to Cape Town. And, um, we saw our parents every six months. We were three brothers. I was the youngest of three. And we saw our parents every six months.

[00:04:00] And, um, it was what my parents had to do to give us an opportunity, so always grateful for that, you know, it really broke my mother. She wasn’t able, the same momentum taking three boys away, I think, let’s call it four, eight, and 12. It’s like all of them under the age of 13.

[00:04:21] And so it was really a tough decision for them, but they did what was right for us. And I often say that to people don’t do what’s good, what’s comfortable for you, do what’s good for your kid, you know? So yeah, grateful for that opportunity. And yeah, like I said, the rest is history. You, you go through school, you find something that you really love doing.

[00:04:40] I, I really loved rugby and at the age of 12 when I, I was one year too young for my grade, but age of 12, I, I played under 13 rugby and there was a coach who just decided that know, he, I, I was really naughty. I was a, not a naughty kid, but I was a busy kid. I was run, I was all over the place, you know, and this, this guy just decided.

[00:05:06] Gotta give this kid an opportunity to, to captain the team, may give him some responsibility, maybe if, if he’s the naughty guy or the busy guy, give him some responsibilities that keeps him busy. And he made me captain of the Western province under 13 rugby team. And since then I never, I was never not captain of the team.

[00:05:25] So always grateful for guys who, who are not scared to give naughty kids or naughty or busy kids. A great opportunity given some responsibility. Yeah. That’s excellent.

[00:05:37] Justinus: So a what’s interesting, when I read the, looked at the research for both of you last night, as you also left your home at five years old to go to boarding school away from home, tell us a little bit about that.

[00:05:49] Hein: Yeah, that was probably my, uh, I would say, uh, one of the most traumatic experiences because I mean, being born blind got used to my own environment. It was just the, I could choose what everything looked like. It was just, paradise. And then at the age of five, my parents made the big decision to send me off the blind school in Worcester.

[00:06:07] Now, the thing is, you know, at home, of course, I could find my way easily around to the kitchen, to the bedroom, and there I was at boarding house, completely lost. And I, I think the one thing, and I, I wa I, I was quite terrified, ’cause it’s the complete unknown. And, uh, what freaked me out more was.

[00:06:25] All of a sudden I realized these kids, these blind kids are walking around making funny noises. One would click his tongue and one would slap with his hand on his thigh. I actually phoned my mom and I said, you know, is this a school for blind children or my children? Why are they making these noises? And soon I realized, if I don’t click my tongue whilst walking down the passage, all these blind buggers get walking into me.

[00:06:42] You know? So I started making some noises to avoid them. But yeah, it was rather traumatic, but obviously, and I guess what for me and as a 5-year-old every night, lying on my pillow, crying myself to sleep, wanting to go back home to my parents, and I guess the thing that stopped the tears every night was the fact in my 5-year-old brain, I believe that the reason my parents sent me to the school is they’re gonna teach me how to see.

[00:07:08] And I didn’t quite manage to do that. However, they did show me it’s rather okay to look at the world from a

[00:07:14] Justinus: different perspective. How long did it take you to sort of fully embrace your new environment? It’s hard to say. You know, I

[00:07:21] Hein: think it, it’s it was a while. I mean, it took a little while, but then you get into a rhythm and, you know, in, in amongst 300 other blind kids, I mean, by the time we were teenagers or young teenagers, I mean, we were basically running the world from boarding house.

[00:07:34] The world just doesn’t know it. We, we got up to so much. So much trouble. And, uh, y you know, I think it was quite hard job for the teachers to keep 300 blind youngsters under control. I mean, we literally I recall, I was thinking I was about 13 or 14 and, uh, we had some day scholars, you know, at school as well, living in Worcester.

[00:07:51] And then and in the evening we would literally go out partying with them or, climb down from the second floor story of the boarding house, use the pipes on the outside of the building, climbing down. Just when we think it’s dark, we just eat the road, you know? So now we, we got up to all sorts of trouble.

[00:08:07] Um, you know, and it was, it was a, ultimately, it was an amazing experience. And, and I mean, they. You know what? Wonderful teacher I re, I remember this one teacher of ours, he started, um, and I think that’s what inspired me to get involved into adventure. He started the mountaineering club at Blind School.

[00:08:23] Now I can imagine that the school’s governing body was not too happy about that. And only later in life, I mean, we climbed every single mountain around Cape Town, uh, the whole of the Western Cape, even up as far as and, uh, I only later in life discovered that all he was trying to do was to show us that, you know, there’s gonna be many peaks you have to climb.

[00:08:42] And if you can reach these heights, I mean, you can literally reach

[00:08:45] Flip: anything. It’s, it’s actually quite interesting to, as I listen to you guys, that between, between Ster and Paul, you know, there’s this literary mountain between, but it’s like a very small geography where you two, where you two grew up. Um, and it, and it’s quite interesting.

[00:08:59] Go. So at 13 years old, you the naughty make the naughty kit captain. And it, and it definitely worked, it worked for the school, definitely worked for South Africa as well. High school. I’ve got massive respect for boys eye. ’cause you know, we, I went to what they would call a, a, a rugby orientated school.

[00:09:16] And we lost one game during my whole high school career. And that was against Boys Eye. So I, I would, always respect that, that school and, you know, we, we are products of the teachers that, that, those hands we go through, uh, the people that form us, uh, you know, up until 18 and then 19. You, you, you’re a big, you’re a big man all of a sudden.

[00:09:35] What do you say, where were the critical moments in those teenage years when you grew up that formed the captain that is corner.

[00:09:42] Corne: Yeah, I think the most important thing was that discipline was massive at Paul Boys Art. They were all about, respect and discipline, that those are the things that they really focus on.

[00:09:53] And I, at that time of my life, I really needed that. So I always said to people that, um, I was definitely a DI wasn’t I wasn’t diagnosed, but my tablet wasn’t round. My tablet was quite long. It was quite a long cane. And, um, I got cane so many times at what was up and what was great flip is that it was a correction.

[00:10:19] It wasn’t a punishment. It was, and there’s a difference, there’s a difference between that, that if you focus on on punishing people and every time they make a mistake, they get punished. There were so many teachers there that cared for me, that pulled me in and said, that’s not the road we want you to go on.

[00:10:36] That’s, you need to go on this route. We need to, you need, we need you to be disciplined in this. So that discipline and, uh. The caring of all the teachers was massive, and it, and it made a big difference in my life for sure, because I only saw my parents, you know, twice a year in June and December.

[00:10:53] So it made a massive difference to me.

[00:10:55] Justinus: So what’s interesting ane and and re is that, do you think for both of you did that? Leaving home and going to boarding school at such a early age must have driven, like growing up quicker and becoming fiercely independent. I How did it play out for you, uh, in booster when you learned to be independent at such a young age?

[00:11:16] Oh, yeah. It, it’s, it’s certainly, I

[00:11:17] Hein: think later in life it definitely helped me to be you, you know. I, I, I, I quickly realized that I’m gonna have to rely on my on myself, um, of course I had a, an, an infrastructure around me and support from the teachers and my parents, of course. But, you know, you, you were basically forced to fight for yourself, uh, from a very young age.

[00:11:38] And that, that definitely made me more independent. And come to think of it, as a blind person, what is the one thing well, that we all strive to be, is to be independent. And I, I guess the school in many ways, and growing up, you know, in boarding school showed me that you’re gonna have to rely on yourself, fight for yourself.

[00:11:56] Um, and as k also mentioned earlier, you know, discipline. I guess in, in many ways I got into endurance sport and all these adventures because of a, of this. And my mom for many years was also the coach of the South African National netball team. So, you know, she drilled us. The times that I was at home, I was drill quite hard for, into discipline, you know, like she, like she did on the, on the netball court.

[00:12:18] But, um, but that is certainly, I, I think part half of my success is, uh, I can contribute to the guidance I got from school, my teachers and even, you know, support from fellow blind students. Could I,

[00:12:33] Justinus: how did it drive your independent

[00:12:34] Corne: look? You, it’s, it’s a sink swim situation. You know, you, you either gotta swim or you’re gonna sink.

[00:12:40] And, and we realized very quickly that there’s nobody to phone. Those were the days with four cell phones, so there was still the ticking box in the, in the boarding house. And my, my, my, my mother used to call me every second week on a Wednesday. And if I wasn’t there, or I, she was, five minutes later, I walked away and then she phoned.

[00:13:00] My grandmother was involved saying, is, have you heard from him? Is he okay? So there was no cell phone, so there was no contact. So there was, I think maybe that made it a little bit easier in a way. I think if I had to FaceTime every, every evening like we do with our kids now, I’ll probably be crying most of the time.

[00:13:17] So you, you just gotta toughen up take a tablet and carry on moving, you know, it’s, it’s one of those there’s no time to feel sorry for yourself and you’ve gotta fight for yourself, you know? So it made me very independent at a young age and later, I think when you, when you get married and you have children, there’s some overcompensation at that, at that stage.

[00:13:38] But that’s a, that’s a small thing. But I would, I don’t wanna miss any of my kids’ sports. You know, my, my youngest son is 69 and I’ve got one. I matric writing the tick exam right now. I never wanna miss anything of them just because my parents couldn’t be there, so I really made a point of trying to be everywhere, which is, yeah, which is also great to see.

[00:14:01] Flip: That’s, that’s quite interesting. And it’s, you know, I’ve got two very young boys and it’s, it’s something that, thinking about now, it’s like, where do we send ’em to school? ’cause obviously being biased, I wanna send ’em to South African schools, but yeah. What is the price we pay? What is the price we pay for that?

[00:14:15] And it’s quite interesting, um, you said, yeah, overcompensation, you know, so, is that healthy? You know, that’s also another question, you know, are you, are you, are you giving your children the independence they need?

[00:14:27] Corne: Look, we always talk about it. We, you have to you raise kids to, to get them out of that.

[00:14:31] We don’t raise kids to stay in that, you know, so you’ve gotta make them independent. So my kids all went to boarding school, so they all very independent on and. You know, they, they love coming home, but they know that home is, is a place to visit. Home is not gonna be there forever. You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta build your own home.

[00:14:50] You gotta make, make your own life, you know, we make that really clear to them as well.

[00:14:53] Justinus: Okay. So both of you grow up, you get through school and Corona, you obviously go into the world of a rugby and ha you start doing all of these insane adventures. Tell us a bit more about that, what led to it and uh, and tell us a bit of all of the things you’ve done.

[00:15:09] Hein: So it’s interesting how, how this came about Justin is because, I mean, I, I don’t, I wouldn’t say, uh, I was a born adventurer, but I think I was about 16 years old when I got so absolutely hurtful of sighted people talking about Table Mountain, this picture perfect postcard view. So I was like, okay, well how am I gonna.

[00:15:28] How am I gonna get my head around this? So climb the climb table mountain six times, and, uh, from different angles and what happened in the process. I just completely fell in love with the smell of the fe boss, uh, the texture of the protea flower between my fingers. I thought to myself, you know, if I’m gonna have a real job one day, whatever that may be, I’m gonna find my way back into nature as often as I can to recharge and revitalize the soul.

[00:15:53] And that was for me, the start to, uh, to many, many an adventure. And in fact, I was, uh, I was on my way to interesting. My first job interview in Cape Town, traveled in on my own from when my folks lived in Denmark. ’cause I thought, you know, if I’m gonna land a job in the city, I’m gonna take the bus and a train, be independent.

[00:16:11] Of course I wanna do it on my own. So I was walking up Strand Street and, uh, I was about to hang a left hand into that building where I was about to have my first interview. When I bumped into a blind friend of mine it was actually not too difficult ’cause he didn’t see me coming, of course. And he is like, I’m okay.

[00:16:26] He said, well, I haven’t seen you in a while. I’m like, buddy, I’ve never seen you before, but I’m also, all right. So, so we started talking and then he told me, there’s this guy who wants to. Crossed the Atlantic with two blind guys on a yacht. And I’m like, what? You know, I didn’t even know how to get to the Royal Cape Yacht Club for, from where we had the conversation, number one.

[00:16:44] Number two, my only sailing experience was a cocktail party. Gone very wrong a few weeks before on a yacht. So, but I said, yeah, well, let’s do it. And so I, I went for the interview in the Royal Cape, and then it turned out that the guy was, we, we were gonna sail with to Rio. He, he actually had a terrible yachting accident three weeks before the Cape to Rio Yacht race.

[00:17:02] He lost his life, sadly, uh, up on the coast in St. Francis. And, um. The only guy that me and the other blind guy could eventually convince to you know, sell with us to Rio was a deaf guy. And I, I, I maintained the fact that he didn’t listen to our questions. That’s why he agreed. But anyway, so there I’m on the yacht half way to Rio, a thousand Nordic of miles on a nearest piece of land, four kilometers of water underneath me.

[00:17:30] And I kind, something in my head just switched and said, well. If I can bring myself to this point, I can take myself absolutely anywhere. So yeah, justice that went on to, ah, many adventures from Breaking the World Blind Land Speed record, driving a car at over 300 kilometers an hour. Uh, the Blind Cricket World Cup was an amazing event.

[00:17:50] Uh, I went on to cycle the Cape Epic on a tandem. It’s one other thing me and corn has in common. And, uh, you know, doing Iron Man and doing a lot of extreme adventure. But I guess at the end of the day. All of these things. My, my single greatest achievement today has got nothing to do with any of these.

[00:18:08] My single greatest achievement is accepting my blindness unconditionally because when I did that, it opened a world to me that I didn’t even know existed. Um, but, you know, having said that, these adventures also was when I was very young, I vowed that I was gonna see one day. I had no idea how and how it would pan up, but I was, I vowed to myself that I’m gonna see and what was I gonna see?

[00:18:31] I was going to see absolutely everything there is to see in this world. And through adventure and sport and endurance, I think I’ve come, uh, haven’t seen it all, but I sure had the privilege to see many, many things.

[00:18:45] Justinus: I think that the whole idea of, of you accepting your blindness completely and unconditionally is such an amazingly and powerful lesson.

[00:18:54] Hein: You know, I think, I think all of us have something that we, you know, that we gripe with, that we, that we, and I think once one, just take it. It is what it is, you know. It’s a very simple saying, but it is really what it is.

[00:19:06] Justinus: What was the thing that finally got you to that point?

[00:19:09] Because I mean, I assume you thought about it for a long time and it’s something you rallied against. And what was the final straw that broke the camel’s back that made you say, I’m just going to completely embrace this? Uh, you know, I think it was, it was

[00:19:23] Hein: a process. I, I guess it took me half my life, uh, to, to accept my blindness.

[00:19:28] So I, I often also also get asked the question if I could see tomorrow, and the technology evolves to the point where. Guaranteed go for an operation, write a big check, and tomorrow you can see I would not take it, you know, because it took me such a long time to get used to my to who I am, to what I stand for, to be at peace with, with, uh, with me, my world, my values.

[00:19:49] And I wouldn’t want to change that for anything. Not even for the ability to see, but it wasn’t one single thing. Justice. I think it was a, it was many, many things that led to that. Call it a moment. Call it a face. ’cause I think it was in my early fifties when I started transitioning from being mad at the world or basically just being blind to being now blinded by possibilities.

[00:20:10] Oh, so bad.

[00:20:13] Flip: That’s fantastic. Yeah. That’s incredible. So many, so many lessons in here, you know, and, and now we only, we only limit ourselves corner. You, you are the ultimate warrior as well. You’ve, you’ve done any and every, uh, endurance race out there. Um, you love to challenge yourself after school.

[00:20:30] You you check the boxes and you know, western province quite early. And then, and then we said B captain. And, and what we found out in the research, well, you retired when you were 28, you know, never realized that. It’s very early for a springboard captain.

[00:20:45] Corne: I turned 30 in that year, now that I retired.

[00:20:48] It’s 25 years ago now.

[00:20:49] Flip: It’s like what Warren Buffet said, you know? Um, now in his last letter he said, well, he is, he’s not particularly proud of his first half of the life, but you know, that’s what formed him. And, and you know, the second half is much better. So it is what it is high. And I’m gonna take that, uh, quarter.

[00:21:04] Take us a little bit through that, that 2002, 2003 captaincy period, uh, and what you took from that and what you learned from

[00:21:13] Corne: that. Yeah, so I actually, uh, I forgot to mention that Carrie Tyson got injured and he didn’t know who to make captain, so he went to Rusi and he said to Rusi, Ruy, do you want to be captain?

[00:21:23] And Russy said, no, I don’t want be captain. And he came, I was the next guy. So he came to me and said, Puno, do you wanna be captain? I said, geez, that’s, it’s a definite yes. Uh, Rasi did take the captaincy a little bit later. But so I’ve gotta thank Rasi for saying no for, so, um, that was the easy part, getting into the team in a, into a very good team, a well settled team with a great coach. That those are the, the good old days. And obviously my career later on, I got injured before the 99 World Cup, so I knew I’d only had one World Cup left in me, which was in 2003. And to be honest, you know, it was a tumultuous time in, in, in Springbok rugby.

[00:22:06] The guys were really unsettled. It was, I remember playing, uh, under 21, under 21 World Cup where it was in 1994, and Nelson Mandela had just been released from, from prison. And we, we went, went cross, played in France, New Zealand didn’t take part in that Junior World Cup. But we, we, we didn’t have a national anthem.

[00:22:29] The stem was banned and of course SEL wasn’t there. So we had a minute silence when everybody else sang the, the anthems, which was crazy to think, and then the other thing is, is when SEL did come, you know, nobody could sing the first part of the, the Anthem. And only when almost started to come in then in English, everybody knew and they started singing that.

[00:22:51] So we had people come to our hotels to phonetically describe how we were sing the, the national anthem and courses Africa. So it was, now the kids sing it at school. Now when you go to stadiums now, it’s not half a minute of silence. And then Eddie Blo, now it’s, people sing from the first to the last word.

[00:23:12] So it was a, it was a transitional time in, in, in Springbok history and in Springbok rugby especially. And it was a privilege to be part of it, but it was tough, you know, it was, it was tough. There were tough times, there was a lot of political interference. Hard as a captain and a coach because you, you’re absorbing all these things.

[00:23:30] You’re trying to keep it away from the players, but still, there’s still great memories and still a great honor to, to represent your country and to play in the World Cup in Australia, which was amazing. And, we came up against, uh, a very good all black team in that quarter final and we lost.

[00:23:48] And they deserved to win. And, and we, we fly home. I was staying to the people. When, when, um, when we got home after that World Cup last out, last in the quarter of fun. There were two people and a dog there, I think, at the airport. It’s weird. It’s weird. It’s weird how so many people are there when, when, when, when you win the World Cup.

[00:24:06] There’s the whole airport’s full of people. So, uh, yeah. Winning, winning winning World Cups is, is. Something that I, I never had the opportunity to be part of, but massive respect to John Smith, entrepreneur and Kui 2, 2, 2 in a row. And let’s hope for that third one. But I mean, winning a World Cup is a, is a massive thing.

[00:24:29] And I would love to be part of a team like that, but no, it was my era. My era is my era. You can’t you can’t choose when you get into the team and when you’re not.

[00:24:39] Justinus: So towards the end of your career, K you ended up going to the UK and playing a little bit in Northampton. Yeah.

[00:24:46] Northampton, tell us about that. What was the, that shift going from, and I mean, in those days, you basically knew that you would wouldn’t play for the spring box again, because once you left South Africa, they wouldn’t pick you. So you left and, and what was the culture shock like, what was it like embracing this new club culture and, and tell us a little bit about that transition.

[00:25:07] Corne: I actually had the opportunity to go and play in Beit, um, with Sge Betson at, at the time, at, and, as a conservative Afrikaan person, I thought, yeah, it’d be awesome to go to France, but I’m, I’m worried about the language and, you know, I’m, my wife’s gonna come with me. What’s gonna be the easiest, you know, where, where can we go?

[00:25:29] And at that time, Alan Solomon’s went to Northampton. And that’s why we went to Northampton. Seldom Bo wa was what went with us. Robbie Kessen, you, I’m from vi we were four or five South Africans that came to Northampton. So I thought that would be a easier option, easier route, more easy for the wife.

[00:25:48] ’cause, because to be honest, if you, if you’re in the rugby team, you’re gonna be happy anyway. You’ve got 15 of your friends around and you’re playing rugby together. You’re having lots of fun together. So you always make friends quickly, where it’s more difficult for the wives when you go across.

[00:26:02] That was a mistake because what I didn’t realize was that in 2002, just before the, before the 2003 World Cup, we played against England and we, we had a, I had the record win 101. No. And I had the record loss 53 3 against England. So I, I held two records I’ve lost in both, luckily. John Smith.

[00:26:23] John Smith took the biggest win and even took the biggest loss, 57 old to the All Blacks. So we played against England. It was a, it was a brutal game. And obviously I, I got involved in, in a lot of stuff where I shouldn’t have got involved. And there’s, there’s, there’s enough footage of, of that.

[00:26:42] But then I went to, I went to England literally two years later. And I can tell you it was hostile in the beginning because they, they weren’t that friendly to, to a supreme board captain who, who had to, who had beaten up the, a couple of players two years before. So I, when I got to Northampton, there’s a great story.

[00:27:04] I got to Northampton. My, my wife, she came a little bit later. Justine came a little bit later. And I, in the first week, the newspaper wrote that if Northampton Saints can contract corner. They might as well contract Osama Bin Laden and Freddie Krueger within in the Austria. So I’ve been, I’ve been liking to, I’ve been lucky to Osama Bin Laden, which I thought was quite cool actually.

[00:27:27] ‘Cause that’s, that’s radical anyway, that the, the, the English fans weren’t that happy. They were saying they’re not gonna come to the games anyway. Alan Solomons decides to then make me captain. Now you gotta remember that. Now you gotta remember in that team, there’s a couple of World Cup winner Ben Cohen the Hooker, I’ll think of his name now.

[00:27:50] Uh, Steve Thompson. Paul Grayson. There are a couple of World Cup winners in that, in that Northampton team. And he made me captain. I said to him, solid, I don’t wanna be captain. I don’t have to be captain. I’ve been captain of all the teams. I’m more than happy to just sit back. And he said, no, I want you to be my captain.

[00:28:06] So, anyhow. So got fired. ’cause we lost, I think, seven games in a row. And so got fired. So I, I resigned as captain. I said, Kaza, I’m up. I’m not gonna be, I’m not gonna be captain. So I actually enjoyed the last six months more than I did the first, first year and a half now.

[00:28:24] Justinus: So a, you also built this amazing life in South Africa, did all of these adventures and then something happened to pull you towards Sweden.

[00:28:35] Tell us about that story. Yeah,

[00:28:37] Hein: yeah. I, I just wanna go back to corner’s comment about the, uh, the two guys on the dog at the Quarterfinal exit. There was actually this one guy, because the second guy was a blind guy with his guide dog who thought he was at Belleville station. So, so sorry.

[00:28:54] But well done on that. Well done on that recovery. Well, a great story. Yeah, so I, I actually just as I, I happened to, to, you know, I was working in it. In fact, my, one of my last real IT jobs was working for Mark Shuttleworth company back in the day in the, in the SSL digital security space. And, um, I, this was mid 2004, 2005, I got invited to speak, uh, at a local school.

[00:29:24] Just tell, you know, the kids, one of the principals asked me, yeah, can you come and tell the kids about your life as a blind person? The adventures you do? And the kids quite liked it. There was a few parents in the audience. And, um, before I knew it, I got in some corporate invites. I was a, I was a rookie. I mean, I, uh, in the speaking business, I didn’t even, you know, think about this.

[00:29:41] I didn’t even know what people look like on stage when they speak. So I thought the best way for me to, if I wanna make this a business, is. Listen, I need to find out what it looks like. So I actually enrolled for a part-time drama course, um, just to get an, an in depth understanding of how stage work, how blah, blah, blah.

[00:30:00] So fast forward 20 years. Here I am, uh, successful speaker worldwide. We’re working with leadership conference conferences, leadership, sales kickoff, et cetera. But long story short, in 2014, I was invited to, uh, Lexmark. In fact, now I’m about 10 years into the speaking business, so getting some international traction.

[00:30:20] And I was invited to speak at a event here in Gothenburg. And, um, that evening at the gala dinner, I, um, I met Monica, who is, uh, who’s now my wife. But the interesting story. She was, uh, working for a company at the time and she well she just started this company and then the night before she, or day before she was up in Stockholm for some meetings and she drove down to the conference the next day and she saw on the program, she was quite tired, obviously, and she saw on the program between two and three in the afternoon.

[00:30:51] There’s a blind guy speaking so great. I can sleep at least for an hour. You know, you wouldn’t notice. So that didn’t work out so well for her. So she had apparently did pay attention. So yeah, so we met, we met at the, at the gala dinner that evening. She come talk to me at the table and, uh, basically when my friend that was traveling with me, he photographer, he said to me, ai, somebody wants to talk to you.

[00:31:13] And, uh, well I knew that before she even said a word. I could sense. I could just sense he was behind me, you know, standing behind me. And when she sat down next to me in basically a room with 300 people in, it just disappeared. The only thing I could see was her. Yeah. And, uh, so I ended up, um, we, we, we commuted to a, you know, between Cape Town and, and, and Sweden for about two years.

[00:31:34] Eventually we got married and, uh, I settled here in Sweden. Still struggling with the long winter. So I don’t think as I, a African I’ll ever get used to the cold. And interestingly, I never thought that the darkness would affect me as a blind person. Um, ’cause I was, ah, you know what, my goodness, I’ve been rolling like this for 45 years, you know, why would the darkness affect me?

[00:31:53] But it’s interesting that it, it is pretty much a lack of vitamin D, so you do feel it. So we, we tried to escape the long winter, so, go coming down to Cape Town, also Africa for a couple of weeks every year if we ca, but yeah, this is how I ended up in, uh, in beautiful Sweden. And, uh, you know, it’s, it’s actually for me in many ways I’m very fortunate that I come back to South Africa at least once a quarter sometimes even more.

[00:32:15] So I don’t, to me it doesn’t really feel like I’ve left and I don’t think I can ever leave in my heart. You know, my wife, she was very kind on my 45th birthday. I, she came home a, uh, a week before me. We were in Africa for some work. And, uh, we had a little beach house in there, minus and, uh, for my 45th birthday, she, she literally built I had built a fire pit, exactly the same measurements.

[00:32:37] The bride that I had down in, uh, on the coast in Miron, Bosch, she even flew in the stainless steel, took rooster, bride, buck, everything to make it per perfectly safe because I’m teaching these sweets how Tory, even in the dark.

[00:32:53] Corne: It’s funny. It’s only 36 today. Yeah. Thanks. K, thanks.

[00:32:58] Hein: Like plus three over year.

[00:33:00] Flip: It’s funny, you, you mentioned, uh, corner, you mentioned Barretts earlier. ’cause me and Justina, we sitting, uh, uh, about two kilometers from the Barrett Stadium at the moment. While we’re recording, while we’re recording this, uh, Justina is visiting here, so off the Northampton, uh, corner and, and now, hanging up the boots, uh, as they say.

[00:33:20] What was next? What, what went through your head

[00:33:22] Corne: before I stopped playing? A guy said to me, look, one day if you want, if you stop playing rugby, you know, let’s start this business. He is, he had a lot of property and he just, he said, look come and join me. Then we put up billboards on all these properties and when I hurt my neck in Northampton, I decided that’s it, I’m done.

[00:33:42] And I phoned him. I said, look, is the opportunity still there? He said, yep, good to go. And I literally stopped playing. Took a month off, decided my daughter was born in Northampton. So, we’ll always have an attachment to Northampton. She didn’t get a British passport. Passport, by the way, at that time.

[00:34:01] We had to live there five years and I wasn’t prepared to stand Northampton for five years. So we came back and took a month off and started working and building the business, putting up billboards on the side of the road, mostly in Johannesburg, which was at the time, it just. It’s lucrative business, but there, it’s, it’s much easier to get billboards up and first on his properties and then other properties.

[00:34:26] But after two years that, that, um, partnership didn’t work out well, and then I started my own business after that, you pay, you pay your school fees if you, if you’re not a businessman, you don’t sign shareholder agreements. And I think all of us, a lot of us have gone through that in the beginning years.

[00:34:45] But yeah, so now I’m still in the business. At least the guy got me into, I’m still in the, I’m still in the same business for 20 years. Yeah, I said 25 years earlier. It’s actually 20 years this year that I stopped playing. So my business is 18 years old this year.

[00:35:02] Justinus: And what was the biggest challenge for you, k in that transition?

[00:35:05] What was the hardest thing for you to learn or to acquire or to deal with

[00:35:11] Corne: the students? I think the, the, the biggest. I think for, for most athletes is, is that your life’s organized for you and you get paid a, a big salary and you guarantee that income at the end of every month. Then you start your own business.

[00:35:26] You, there’s no guarantee of income. There’s no reward on a, on a Saturday, where you work hard in the week on Saturday you play rugby. That’s your, that’s your reward. That’s the, you run out in front of 30 or 50 or 60,000 people, sing the national anthem, whatever. You know, it’s, that’s rewarding.

[00:35:45] Now. There’s no reward and you gotta get your head around that. And I think the one thing that saved me in a way was that I, I really focused on, on not being, when I was springboard captain, I wasn’t I tried to keep in touch with my school friends and I say this to the young kids as well, so it was never touching me all as a person to the title that you have for a very short period of time.

[00:36:10] And that’s, that saved me in a way, so I’m still, all my school friends from Paul Boys Home, are still my, my friends, all of us are turning 50 this year. So we’ve, we’ve, I’ve already been to a lot of big 50th parties. They’ve all all been to mine. But, but the big thing is, is that you can’t attach who you are as a person.

[00:36:28] ’cause you were, you were a person, you were somebody you know, and Kui is gonna, is gonna experience that as well. But he, he was kui. Now, SIA Carisi became the springboard captain. You can’t attach who he is as a person to that title for course. Mine was a very short period of time. I was I was captain for 18, 18 matches where he’s, 60 plus, I think, you know, and a couple of years.

[00:36:53] So that transition from hero to zero, relatively large amount of cash in the bank. So that then you have to, you have to have strong principles. You gotta have strong religion, you gotta have strong family, you’ve gotta have family values, and then you’re still gonna struggle, you know? So it was probably the most difficult thing I’ve ever done, and I’m grateful for, let’s call it a solid wife who came from a solid family.

[00:37:22] My, my father-in-law, uh, who has passed away now. He was instrumental in getting me through that time, that uncertainty that, you know, it’s gonna be okay, you’ll be fine. My parents were still in Zambia. So, yeah, very tough period of time but also rewarding now, looking back, getting through things, building a business, having 12 people in the office with 12 staff members got more problems.

[00:37:47] So, uh, but yeah, it’s been a, it’s been an incredible journey, but, but lots of grace in between, for sure.

[00:37:54] Flip: That is, um, it is pretty much what I’m going through in that corner. So, you know, I can, I can echo your, echo your sentiments and it’s, uh, what I do enjoy is you just in the same breath said your company is 18 years old and, and we’re still building and still learning.

[00:38:09] And I think, I think that is what it is to go back to Heinz, um, Heinz words, you know, it’s, it’s, I think often, uh, we should not, you know, get ahead of ourselves because we play springbox, we springbox captain you, you think people will treat you in a, in a certain way, but then, um, you, you face up to a 24-year-old that, that knows how to, to code in Python and you know you’re worth nothing.

[00:38:34] Yeah. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a constant learning curve. Hi. What did you, what did you learn the most when, when you, when you moved to Sweden? What was the immediate attraction to, to the community around you and, and, asset Africans, we, we are unique in certain ways and when we expect certain things.

[00:38:53] How did you adapt to that community?

[00:38:55] Hein: You know, it is, uh, it is, uh, it is so different to, uh, to, to what we grew up as South Africans, you know, from a cultural perspective. And, you know, you can’t, uh, I think anybody that leaves South Africa. Um, that is used to sunshine, bright flies, rugby, cricket and all the lack of stuff is you, uh, all of a sudden you, you go like, not that you think the rest of the world is this, but that.

[00:39:17] When you realize that it’s, uh, it’s so far from the reality of the sweets, that particular style lifestyle, it’s, you kind of can feel a little bit like a cultural orphan. Um, but, you know, I think what, what helped me is my, you know, obviously my wife being Swedish she had a, a great loc, great friends, great infrastructure here.

[00:39:37] And I mean, the country, it’s an amazing country. Sweden is really, uh, you know, I, I’ve, I’ve, I’m so privileged that I have, I’m able to live and experience the best of both worlds. ’cause Africa, the best weather, the best, it’s social, it’s lovely, is lacking. Um, and in Sweden, it’s, everything works.

[00:39:55] Like, uh, you know, for a, for me, as a blind person. It is probably one of the most accessible countries. I mean, I can be completely independent, whether it’s, uh, jumping on the bus of my daughter heading into the city. I mean, it’s just completely, I can be completely independent, but it was quite hard, you know, interesting when I, I mean, when I got here, obviously, uh, I was doing more and more work at the time also in Europe but all of a sudden I didn’t have that ’cause Africa, I was getting landing, up to 10 gigs a month in the speaking business.

[00:40:24] And that obviously when I changed address that, that soon started to dry out. So it was really hard to, uh, you know, sometimes you go like, I mean, of course I made a decision with my heart to come here and that, that’s why I’m here. But you, you, some days you, I, I certainly had some doubt, you know, where I thought like, was this the right thing to do?

[00:40:40] You know, shouldn’t we just all back up and move back to South Africa? And, um, and I don’t regret that at all. You know, just to give you a little example when, uh, think back on the COVID days. So the rest of the world South Africa in particular, had some serious lockdown, as you all know, and we had all these rules and they, you know, Sweden, there was none.

[00:41:01] It was life as usual. I think one 18 months into the pandemic, they started to say, you know, maybe you should consider wearing a mask on a bus. You know, it was so, people just went about their daily lives. And the interesting thing is then they started to put down these, uh, these markers on the floor.

[00:41:18] You know, when you queue in a, in a shopping center at your, at the pay point, so two meters, you have to stand two meters behind the other person. So the suites went, oh, you know, we’re so tired of this. Can we please go back to the five meter rule? You know, it was the one before, before competition came.

[00:41:33] So people know how to keep their distance in this one. But actually once you get to know the swes, they’re really, uh. Really wonderful and, and very engaging people. And, um, and, but I guess for me, you know, picking up your roos is never easy. Um, but you know, once you make it, if you make a decision I’ve learned in life, if you make a decision, stick to that decision.

[00:41:54] You know, you can’t you can’t sit and ponder it. You know, if you made that decision with all the information available at you know, knowing, understanding the risk, and you, you decide to dive into it, then do it and do it properly.

[00:42:06] Justinus: It’s amazing when you change cultures and, and they’re adapting. And I, I would say like when we just got to Canada, my daughter was sick, so we had to navigate the healthcare system and it really gave me a completely different perspective on South Africa.

[00:42:22] And it seems like your time in Sweden also gave you a little bit of a, a perspective on South Africa. What would you say you why does living in Sweden reframed about South Africa for you?

[00:42:35] Hein: Yeah, you know, I, I, I think, I think the one thing that it showed me also is that, uh, you know, with the right, um, what’s the right word?

[00:42:46] That anything, you know, things can be great all around for everybody. You know, if I look at the Swedish culture, the Swedish way. If one can take some of those elements and, and duplicate it in South Africa, you know, year for example, if you look at, and I mean we, all of South Africa knows how our country has been plundered and corruption, et cetera.

[00:43:08] I don’t wanna focus on the negative, but you know, a few years ago, year one of the ministers in parliament in Sweden accidentally bought a Tabone chocolate on her gov government credit card, and she was fired on the spot. I mean, this is for $10 or something like that. So, and, and you know, I can detest to the fact that how things can be, you know, my, my daughter who was, who’s nine you just spoke about.

[00:43:34] Justin mentioned that your daughter was sick when you moved to Canada. So my little girl is now nine years old. And I, just to go back a little bit or put this into context, I always want the children, but because of the fact that my blindness is here, hereditary, this was her hard conversation with my previous partners because I mean.

[00:43:51] Having two blind children in the house might be a bit of a challenge for anyone, you know? So, but anyway, so, so my biggest fear was that my kids are gonna be blind. ’cause I didn’t want them to go through the same pain, the same hassles, the same trauma that I went through as a 16-year-old fighting the world, God, the universe, and everyone.

[00:44:09] Why am I the blind one? And in fact, she was then, uh, she was born in 2016, my little girl. And, you know, lo and behold, ’cause Momon just said, when we had the conversation, I said, well, if our kids are blind, you know, we would be a better role model. I was like that’s generous thinking. Thank you. That’s cool.

[00:44:24] But lo and behold, she was born, her eyes were perfectly fine. But on this, on her second birthday, she was diagnosed with, uh, leukemia. And I, I tell you, it was the most. Traumatic time. I mean, it was, it was, I, I can’t even in words, you know, for six months after her diagnosis, I couldn’t even say the word leukemia without completely falling apart, and, and then obviously she immediately went into the Swedish healthcare system.

[00:44:52] Two and a half years of chemo. I think the last count they in treatment was around 20 million rand, worth of treatment. And the Swedish government didn’t ask us for 1 cent. You know, if, if that is, do you know what I mean? What I’m trying to say? If, if that’s this reality, imagine one could have a similar reality for all South Africans in South Africa.

[00:45:13] South Africa naturally is actually a very rich country on so many levels from minerals all the way through including culture. So, yeah, I mean, but that to me to, you know, pardon the pun, was certainly an eye-opener.

[00:45:28] Justinus: That’s a great story. ’cause what I keep repeating and, and flip it back to me yesterday even, is this idea of we really have to build a country that works for everybody.

[00:45:37] And I would say my perception of what that means has completely changed in the last 10 years since I’ve been in Canada. Very similar to the experience that you’ve had. No, it, it, it just

[00:45:48] Hein: shows you what is possible, you know, and I, I think as Africans living abroad and, and, and I know that’s, that’s your mission as well is, you know, how do we take and continue to take the experience that we gain, take it back and continue to help, grow our, our, our country and make our countries mean South Africa better.

[00:46:07] And, and even in every little small way that we can do so.

[00:46:10] Flip: Thanks for sharing iron. Uh, that’s, that’s, that’s pretty incredible. And K, your, your body must be, must be having a few scars left, uh, from, from your playing days. Uh, you, you mentioned Justin going by you, you, you broke your neck. I don’t think it’s a lot of people.

[00:46:26] It just said, uh, I broke my neck and then just went on, took a month off. You also, an endurance athlete a survivor as well. Almost forgot about that one. What attracted you to these en endurance sports? Um, what is the, you know, outside of fitness why do you keep doing that to yourself?

[00:46:43] Corne: I think the key is once you’ve been a professional sportsman you always want challenge. You want, you wanna try and do something that’s quite difficult. You know, you wanna be challenged by stuff.

[00:46:54] Flip: Know everything he has done. Survivor is probably not the biggest.

[00:47:00] He still lives in South Africa every day. Is survivor.

[00:47:04] Corne: True? I’m surviving every day. I like a bit of a challenge, you know, and I think after playing rugby, it’s important for you to set some, some fitness goals for yourself so that you out of your comfort zone quite often. My, my wife doesn’t understand it at all.

[00:47:19] I ran my first marathon in, in, in Ironman. I wanted to break the four hour mark and I did a four hours, 10 minutes in the, in, in the marathon. And I was quite angry with myself. So we entered, we entered the Cape Time Marathon, and I said, I’m gonna run, I’m gonna run the Cape Time Marathon.

[00:47:38] I’ll run under four hours. And she, I was jogging with her and then I left her and I and I finished the marathon in three hours, 59 minutes. But then I fainted after the, and she said, oh, you stupid. I dunno why, why you wanna put yourself through that plan. But I think for me, I always liked a hard challenge.

[00:47:56] I, I like challenging myself physically and just continuously, having these goals. Maybe I’m trying the next one is swimming Rob Island, which my shoulder backed up. I would’ve done it earlier this year for my 50th birthday. So the Rob Island swim is eight kilometers, swim from Robin Island to, to big boat.

[00:48:17] But my shoulder backed up. But I like it. I like a bit of poking.

[00:48:20] Flip: Have you, have you seen the sharks over there?

[00:48:24] Corne: I’ve seen them. I sniff there. I sniff there quite often. So, but I think the adrenaline that you got on the field, you gotta try and replicate that in some way, and I train hard. I, when I get really angry, I’ll go to the garage and I take a punching bag and I punch, get rid of all my frustrations.

[00:48:43] But that’s my way of, of getting rid of stress. You know, some other people will do other stuff. But getting rid of stress for me is, is just train on, get on the bike, go for a run, swim in the sea, surf, being active. So our act, our holidays are actually really nice and nice and active. But I also, I want to tell you a story about Han.

[00:49:05] What year did you do the Epic? Uh,

[00:49:07] Hein: 2011 go

[00:49:08] Corne: 2011. And it, it was so funny. I heard the story afterwards. He did an interview, they fell off, a bridges’s partner fell off a bridge and they did an interview with he, they said, I’m, um, I heard you guys fell off a bridge. He said, yeah, I didn’t see that coming.

[00:49:25] And people, people were mad. They were laughing. So there was lots of respect. I did the Epic and I did the epic and it was stuff for me it was tough. I could see everything, but jeez, it must have been hectically tough on the back of her. And, and bike is not

[00:49:44] Hein: what year did you do Epic?

[00:49:45] Uh, interestingly enough, 2016. 2016. And, and your, your Cape Town Marathon. What year was that? This

[00:49:52] Corne: year after Ironman. That was actually

[00:49:57] Hein: okay. No, I’m just, I’m just curious because, because I, you, I’m just listening to your story. You did 3 59. I was trying to go for a sub four and, uh, I managed to do 4 0 13 4 hours and 13 seconds, and I also ended and up fainting and going into the medical tent.

[00:50:13] I was just wondering if we were lying next to one another. A few seconds

[00:50:20] Corne: had a lot in common,

[00:50:22] Hein: so we have a lot, a lot more uncommon than you think.

[00:50:24] Justinus: Yeah. So that, so the next sort of arc we want to talk a little about, about is this playbook for change. I mean, both of you have had these amazing careers in South Africa, and, and both of you’ve obviously spent time abroad and, um, unfortunately we are all getting closer or over 50 now as well.

[00:50:42] So when you look back now a and, and you see this entire arc of your life. What is it that you would say is like, would you define as your playbook for change? What are the things that, that you maybe wish you knew at 16 that you know now?

[00:51:00] Hein: Sure. Yeah, there’s a lot, but I think for me is, you know, the one thing for me that’s a golden thread through, uh, I think that that o of all the things and all the lessons I’ve learned gratitude and appreciation is besides kindness and generosity.

[00:51:20] I, I think the one thing that has generated more light into my life than sight can ever do is appreciation. I always say, you know, appreciate what you’ve got, because there are hundreds, thousands, in fact, millions of people out there who are less fortunate than we are, and the things that me and you, just the state for granted.

[00:51:42] Right now, somebody else or on the knees praying for it. And if I, if in my early twenties and in my, in my younger life if I knew that I think the impact of what I do would even have been greater. But, flip also mentioned before that is just part of the curve. It’s part of your own journey to learn how to live.

[00:52:06] And Afri, Kaji would say and that, that takes a while. You know, and if you can’t see your surroundings and you are, you are trying to navigate the unknown, it could be a little harder. But, looking back now, I’m so, still so grateful that I’ve had the opportunity to also through the work that I do.

[00:52:28] Hopefully enrich other people’s lives. And I think, you know, when I formalized that, and I think I told you when we had our first conversation about the academy that I started for the blind back in South Africa, and we now have 50 blind students full-time on campus. We started in 2019 with I think only about 12 or 21 students.

[00:52:49] We have 50 full-time blind students on campus every year. Now they live on campus three meals a day, and they all come from very, very poor African communities. I mean, imagine you live, imagine you will live in a township, number one, and you can see. Now let’s take it to another level. Imagine you live in a township and you cannot see, some people will probably say you’re better off, but just trying to navigate.

[00:53:13] You know that informality just trying to navigate. Everything’s happening in a township with a white gain. If you can afford one, come to our campus. Once the guys finished metric, they come with us. And last year we had our first cohort of blind students who qualified as cyber security analyst. And today in Absa Bank in South Africa, in their security soc, they have the highest percentage.

[00:53:42] Of blind cybersecurity analysts in the world in their security stock because of our academy. And nothing, nothing there is, there’s not a greater reward than seeing that youngster come into our academy. You know, hardly being able to navigate his own personal surroundings to go and work for a multinational bank in cybersecurity, and by the way, is completely blind.

[00:54:09] It doesn’t get better than that. Wow.

[00:54:11] Corne: That’s awesome.

[00:54:12] Hein: Yeah, that’s,

[00:54:13] Flip: it’s pretty incredible. Go you, you did some motivational speaking as well. Another thing you guys have in common, you, you guys basically brothers, you need to go check it out. Um,

[00:54:23] Hein: yeah, exactly. We, we’ll meet up in soon, go surfing together. I’ll do the shark spotting.

[00:54:30] How’s that?

[00:54:33] Flip: What, what are some of these frameworks, um, of the leadership, the stuff you learned on the field and off the field, uh, that you can, that you, that you carry over to the, to the community you’ve been at the coalface of, of Springbok rugby? Uh, learned from the best and the worst. Yeah, for sure.

[00:54:50] Go, gone, gone full circle, uh, you know, into the, into the boardroom. Um, you do the, the motor vessel. Speaking in, in big corporates. Uh, what are some of these frameworks that you, that you use, uh, that you carry over to the community today?

[00:55:04] Corne: I use a lot. I use a lot about sport, about the discipline. I use that a lot because there’s, in, in general there’s a, there’s a lack of discipline in South Africa, which, which needs to be addressed.

[00:55:18] So that’s the one thing. But also as you get older, I think. I turned 50, as I said earlier in March, I turned 50 this year. And when you’re 30 40, you look forward and you’re always planning and you thinking about new things. But as soon as you get to 50, suddenly you turn around and you look back and you go, okay, geez, whatever.

[00:55:42] Have I achieved? What different, what difference have I made? And that’s what what it comes back to. What h said earlier is we are not here just to consume. We are not here just to, to take some people and, and make money and become richer and richer. We are here to give back. We are here to make a difference with your friends.

[00:56:01] Start at home with your family, but also with your friends. You know, what kind of a friend are you? You know, are you just a guy who drinks man? You cope with your friends, or are you actually a guy who actually cares? Hey, what’s going on in your marriage? It’s, that’s. I think that’s in the phase where I am now in, in my life and, and where I want to be is to, to be able to make a difference.

[00:56:21] You know? So when I, in public speaking, I wanna find, I wanna feel that I, if I walk away, one or two people can take something from what I’ve said that they can apply in their life, and I’ve only been on the call for about half an hour with, with Henan and I, and he’s, he’s already taught me a couple of things, you know?

[00:56:40] So that’s the, the thing is that you, you want to give back. You want to give back to people. You want give back of your, of your experiences that you had enough. And it’s much better to, to have an experience and share that experience with someone than to, to read something out of a book and then convey that message to somebody else.

[00:57:00] You know? So our ex, our life experiences give us the opportunity to, to give back and to, to, even to my sons. You, I said to my son the other day, I said. A wise, a a a clever guy learns from his mistakes. A wise guy learns from other people’s mistakes. So I don’t want you to make the mistakes. I do. I make, ’cause there’s, there’s pain involved.

[00:57:21] I don’t want you, you can learn from me. I’ll tell you everything. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll navigate the whole road for you. But in the end, you can’t protect them. They’re gonna have to bump their own heads and they’re gonna have to take some pain along the way. And that’s part of, of, like I said earlier, it’s part of living, it’s part of growing.

[00:57:38] Justinus: Well, we are protecting from the, the world is such a, such a brittle thing for me as a parent as well, right? Is you want to give them the opportunity to be independent and be successful, but you also wanna avoid the pain that that you can. I, you’ve come also full circle in your academy. That is a shining light, uh, for what it does for the beneficiaries.

[00:58:02] You alluded to it earlier, but maybe just tell us a little bit more about that. How did you get to the point where you wanted to do it? Tell us that full circle story. Of course.

[00:58:11] Hein: So at some point, I, I. You, you know, you ask corn. I also say you start to look inward, you know, and you go like, you know what, what is gonna be my legacy?

[00:58:20] What do I wanna, what do I want to leave behind? And I think for me, you know, the big thing was I achieved, relatively speaking, big success within it being blind, you know, being able to use technology. And the way technology has enriched my life, I mean, I still, I just got back from, uh, IBM, the TBM forum, speaking in Miami.

[00:58:40] I, I’ve worked for, uh, you know, for a while I was ambassador for SAP, the German based IT companies, helping them with, with, uh, rolling out ER ps for multinationals across the globe, helping to inspire the change management, the transitions, et cetera. So that golden thread of technology and how it served me, uh, certainly.

[00:59:00] I was like, but how can I help other blind people who, who didn’t have a privilege or the privilege that I have growing up, going to a, a blind school with great teachers access to, uh, to technology. Although it was very limited back then. I mean, but the, and the way it evolved, I just knew that if this, if tech lands in the hands of every single blind person, a youngster out there, it’ll open a whole new world to them.

[00:59:25] So that was what, what started it off? You know, I mean, just to give you an example of how the tech, and they’re not gonna answer the rest of your question, but that, that, that kind of, it kind of fold into that and, with with tech, so a couple of years ago. I use a normal phone, iPhone or Android.

[00:59:42] It’s got voice software, screen reading software. So whatever I touch on the screen, it would read it back to me. You can manipulate it in many ways where there’s LinkedIn, Facebook, it’s, so on my laptop I use a standard laptop. It’s got voice software that reads everything back. But a few years ago, this guy developed a app called Be My Eyes.

[00:59:57] Um, so all it is, is you sign up as a blind person, and if I need help, I click the help button. It connects me to the first available sighted volunteer who signed it, signed up as a sighted person. So if I need help, it, it links it to my camera to you, and we can have a conversation. I can point the camera and you can tell me, okay, I, to the left, you drop.

[01:00:15] That’s you looking for your card, it’s on the floor. Or this sister pointed to the washing machine, that’s 40 degrees, blah, blah, blah. But then they took it a step further and they started building AI into this. So be my ai so I can take a photo and just send it off to the server. Within seconds it comes back.

[01:00:29] So think about this, you and a, you travel, you and a TA in Switzerland or France, and at seven o’clock in the. And you open the mini bar and you need a cola or, and, but the cola can, and the Heineken can, looks exactly the same if you feel them. So at least the cam, the, the a I will tell you the one on the left is the cola.

[01:00:47] Sometimes seven o’clock in the morning you need the Heineken, but most of the time you need the cola. So it’s just, it, it has opened. I don’t walk, you know, I’ve always been fascinated about visual art, the whole concept of paintings, how people express their feelings, scenery, memories, you name it.

[01:01:08] Onto canvas. And I never had access to that really, except for if somebody else stands next to me and explain the painting, be my ai, I take a photo, submit it to the server, and gives them a more in depth. Explanation than any human being can probably do. So I do not walk past paintings anymore because I, I’m like 52 years of catching I’ve and losing art on visual art.

[01:01:33] That is the extent of where the tech is at, and to the extent where. Blind people can become cybersecurity analysts, competitive salaries, competitive to equal work that then that they cited counterparts. So when the opportunity came, my business started to grow where I could plow some of that money back into this academy.

[01:01:53] Well, first of all, it was just sponsoring individual students and then we formalized it in 2019 to become the academy. And what was my the, the whole vision or the mission of it was just to enable blind people to explore the world through technology and, uh, and, you know, qualify themselves so they can go further on and, and have meaningful careers.

[01:02:13] And I never thought that this thing would, you know, grow further than 10, 15 people, you know, by next year, I think we’re gonna have 70, 80, hopefully 80 blind students on campus. So it’s, it’s really growing and we’ve proven that, uh. Really anything is possible with the right education and the right tech.

[01:02:29] So yeah, so that’s the long, that’s the long story about. Um, and, and, you know, I, I cannot imagine my world all looking through the world without

[01:02:39] Justinus: the lens of technology anymore. So can I, for you, what do you look for and how do you find opportunities to to go full circle?

[01:02:48] Corne: Yeah. So I’ve, I’ve real privileged to be a, a Sports for Good ambassador under my photo with Nelson Mano be a sport for good.

[01:02:59] Uh. Ambassador of certificates. So I get many opportunities on weekends in the week to go out and use sport to, to change people’s lives, you know. One of the favorite, my favorite what charities that they support is a, a company called Waves for Change. And they take kids out of the townships and they take them to the sea.

[01:03:25] They give them a, a wetsuit, and, um, they put them in the, they put them in the sea and teach ’em how to self. And the absolute joy of those the smiles on the faces is just incredible. Remember, they come from trauma, they come from very harsh conditions. And, and here they’re in the sea. And that’s the one thing I always say about surfing.

[01:03:46] I say if I run, I can think about business. I can think about, you know, my family, I can think about a whole other stuff. When I ride my bike, I can think about everything, about business, about stress. I could, but when you’re in the sea, you can never think about anything else. You’ve gotta think about the wave.

[01:04:07] You’ve gotta, you’ve gotta be in the right place. You it’s dangerous if you’re not in the right place. The water is flip and cold anyway. Even with the weit on so you that awareness of, of where you be, where you are. Being on the board in yoga, they talk about being on the mat. So these kids, for two hours of their day, they escape.

[01:04:27] And geez, it’s incredible. It’s so rewarding. So, yeah. You know, at my age, yeah, I, I want to give back. And luckily Lori gives me that opportunity to do that on a daily and a weekly basis.

[01:04:38] Flip: So we have a little tradition on winning the away game, where we allow guests to ask each other a question.

[01:04:46] You know, you guys can go as far as you want to and also choose, you know, HB four Beauty. So you could choose who goes first. I don’t mind, I can ask for

[01:04:54] Hein: Kne Kne. If there’s a, if there’s anything in your, your career, both professional rugby business, if there’s anything that you could do differently given the opportunity, what would that be?

[01:05:08] Corne: I think there’s one in there’s one in rugby. I, I, I would’ve, in the England game, I wouldn’t have lost my mind. And not but bat that batted a a couple of Englishmen. So that’s one I would’ve changed. And then in business picking the right business partner and signing a, a shelter’s agreement is, is what I definitely would’ve done differently.

[01:05:30] And yeah, I think that those two things are, are lessons that you never, you, you make the mistake, but you don’t do it again. And I think that’s the, that’s the key is learning out of your mistakes. Mistake doesn’t make you stupid. A mistake doesn’t put you down, you know, it’s how you get up.

[01:05:47] It’s how you make sure you don’t make that mistake again. And, and obviously just focus on, on going forward and not looking back and, and beating yourself up about mistakes. You know, it’s the same on the rugby field, you know, if. In any sport, if you beat yourself up about the mistake you made, now this another 60 minutes that you still have to play, if you’re gonna beat yourself up about it, the coach might as well take you off the field.

[01:06:11] So now those, yeah,

[01:06:16] Hein: I think the fact that you’re also sharing those, you know, as you, you mentioned earlier, be wise to your kids, you know, learn from other people’s mistakes and, and you know, one can’t if, uh, people who make them will perceive mistakes, as you said, you know, is, uh, it’s impossible if you don’t share it.

[01:06:32] So heads up for that man. Uh, thank you.

[01:06:34] Corne: I’d like to ask Flipper a question

[01:06:36] Flip: as you could ask me, but you have normally two iron, but I’ll answer one as well.

[01:06:41] Corne: I heard you bought a rugby club. Is that true?

[01:06:45] Flip: I did, I did for, uh, I didn’t buy it. I helped people structure it the lovely beer rugby club.

[01:06:51] And there’s another thing you could have surfed when you, if you came to play for them. It’s a rugby club steeped in, in rugby history and, and they’ve won me European cups and local two 14 rugby. But, um, rugby four these days, rugby beer, and there’s a lot of politics and and people trying to drag it down to the, the lowest common denominator.

[01:07:10] So yeah, for the moment I’ll, uh, I let him be, let him be and I’ll stay a supporter of rugby. And

[01:07:16] Corne: Are you, are you actively, are you actively involved?

[01:07:20] Flip: Only, only as a, as a, I still have my few seats there that I can go watch, uh, every Thursday or Friday. And that, and that’s good.

[01:07:28] Corne: It was a loaded question ’cause I have a son on his way, so I’ll send them to you.

[01:07:34] Flip: Yeah, send over, send over. We’ve, we’ve got contact. If there’s anything like his dad, uh, we will I’ll buy a rugby club again and build around him.

[01:07:42] Corne: Awesome.

[01:07:43] Justinus: Any question for a K? Yeah.

[01:07:46] Corne: She’s so much respect from you. I have to say that and to think. I always close my eyes and I think if I didn’t have sight, how would I, how would I navigate around and I did that blind rail.

[01:08:03] Have you did, you did yeah, yeah. The pioneer one? Yeah, yeah,

[01:08:06] Hein: yeah, yeah.

[01:08:07] Corne: I did that blind rail. And they literally you have to drive, but you’ve got a blind navigator. So he was, explain to you where to go. But he was, he is reading in braille and that’s when I realized how incredibly down.

[01:08:23] Strong, your mind must be to, to get up every day and to do, do the right things. If there was one thing that you could do differently as a 16-year-old, ’cause I think that’s, it sounded like you as a 16-year-old, you, um, you were quite, do quite a bit of a rebel. If there was one thing you that you could do differently, what would that be?

[01:08:42] Hein: Sure. I don’t think I could have lived any harder as, as a si as a 16-year-old, but I think, I think, you know what I would, and I’m so glad that I eventually learned that lesson, but I think what I would’ve done differently is I would’ve, if I knew what was coming, I, I would’ve probably put down my fights earlier because I spend so much time as a teenager fighting God, the universe and everything.

[01:09:14] Questioning the fact that why am I the blind one? Why not somebody else? And then, you know, the minute I put that down. It was all revealed, you know, then I, I could see clearly, but, I guess in a way I probably had to go through that frustration to reach the other side, but it didn’t necessarily made me the best person to be hanging out with.

[01:09:35] And that I, I don’t regret because that was just, I didn’t know any better. I was just trying to navigate the unknown, as you rightfully refer, referred to earlier as a blind person. And that consumed me in so many ways. And I think what consumed me even more was the fact that I felt that I was completely at the back of the queue because of the fact that I can’t see, and I had all these sighted friends who could make eye contact with the girls and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:10:04] You know? So I always felt like I’m, and that is such a powerful thing. And I think sighted people underestimate the power of being able to make eye contact because within a split second, apparently this is hearsay that you can even know the other person. You can tell by just looking in their eyes if they’re happy, sad if they’re stressed content, whatever the case may be.

[01:10:25] And I never had that privilege. And I, I guess today, given the opportunity to see just one thing for a split second and I have to choose, what would that be? It would most certainly be making eye contact with my little daughter who’s nine years old because apparently it’s also the windows into the soul.

[01:10:45] But yeah, if I can do anything differently as 16-year-old Hein, I’ll be less than mood with the world that I’m blind.

[01:10:53] Corne: Well done.

[01:10:54] Justinus: Thank you. You know, a, one of my favorite movies ever is Invictus, and I thought about it, seeing this picture of Nelson Monte Dela there behind K and the scene where he is with Fran Pinar in his office.

[01:11:08] And he basically he’s using this like having this conversation with Fino and not directly telling him what he’s actually wanting. But one of the things he says in this conversation is that. In order to build the nation, we have to all find a way to exceed our own expectation. And it almost feels like that was the journey you went through.

[01:11:31] You, you were rebelled against these constraint then you in embracing them completely. And by embracing the constraint, you almost released all of this magical power that you had and you were able to exceed every expectation that, that you’ve probably ever placed on yourself. So thank you for sharing.

[01:11:50] It’s been amazing to, to hear your journey and, and know you did that. It was, uh, amazing. Thanks for having me. It was really a, a great hang out

[01:11:59] Hein: of you guys.

[01:11:59] Corne: Hi. No, just, I just wanna say, yeah, I just wanna say as well, in South Africa there’s millions of people who wake up every day with no hope.

[01:12:07] And a lot of them are sighted that a lot of them can actually see, but they don’t see you. And there’s a blind person. You give a lot of people up. And, uh, I just wanna thank you for that. I wanna honor you for that.

[01:12:20] Hein: Thank you, kne. Appreciate that. Thank you very much. And keep up the good work you’re doing, man.

[01:12:24] Flip: Thank you. I just saw Kne when you, when you brushed your eye there, I saw your fingers. And this is a particular story of the, of the impact you had on my personal life is when we were we all the way to Durban for our under 19 World Cup and, um, I I, you guys played a test match on the Saturday and we flew out on the Sunday or something, and you came to shake your hands, but your hand was broken.

[01:12:48] So you, you shook all our hands to on, on the, on the left hand side. I was, I just thought, if as a young man you think if your hand’s broken you, you know, I won’t even get out of bed. And he was there after mates shaking all our hands and wishing us luck. You had a massive impact on, on my life.

[01:13:04] And

[01:13:04] Corne: they look they’re, they’re not pretty. They’re all over the place. Yeah, I think Rusty’s, Rusty’s looks like Rusty is even worse. Rusty’s probably the

[01:13:13] Flip: worst. But yeah, so, and it made me do a lot of stupid things and, and, and play with paint through my ears. But yeah, thanks for that.

[01:13:20] Justinus: Okay, so last question for both of you.

[01:13:23] Where do you think you’ll be with, uh, at the next World Cup? Where do you, where are you hopefully watching the final? When we try and win the third World Cup in a row, I, uh, I think that somewhere next to

[01:13:35] Hein: you on a bench. They will be lovely to, uh, hang out to one of you guys and watch the game somewhere.

[01:13:40] And also if somebody who actually understand the rules, so

[01:13:45] Justinus: well, hopefully we can be at the game. Mine. I’m gonna make it my mission to take you to a World Cup final. Uh, it’ll be amazing. I’d love that.

[01:13:52] Corne: I’m planning to go to Australia. Um. The opportunity to witness three in a row really does excite me.

[01:14:00] So yeah, I’m, I’m making plans to get there, that’s for sure. And it is in a, it is in Australia where I lost in the quarter of finals. So I have to go back and have some record memories there

[01:14:11] Flip: and we can organize, uh, we can organize with Wingman to do a little trial Ironman there while we, while we at it.

[01:14:19] No pressure.

[01:14:19] Justinus: Okay. So thanks guys. Thanks for joining us. It was a, a real pleasure winning the Way game in cooperation with the lack of network. We really love having these conversations and talk about how we are, we, our South Africans show grit and determination to take over the world. So thanks for joining us.

[01:14:37] We really appreciate it.

[01:14:38] Flip: Um, flip yeah, thank you guys, uh, for joining us. Two legends keep on doing the good work and, and sharing the story of hope.

[01:14:46] Corne: Thanks. Good, thanks guys.

[01:14:48] Flip: Thank you Gens.