Episode 4: The Art of getting back up

[00:00:00] Justinus: Good morning. Welcome to Winning the Away Game. I’m t Adriane, co-founder of We Think Code. I’m here in a prison in the south of France recording this episode today. A prison that likely now is a hotel room. So very excited about today’s episode, and I’m here with Bok Legend Flip Funer, my co-host Flip.

[00:00:33] How are you doing today?

[00:00:35] Flip: Justina has it. Uh, great to be here. Uh, we’ve got two great guests, uh, today, a fellow free state, Ian AJ Fent joining us today. Uh, legend of South African Rugby. Um, also, also an idol of mind looking up to him, uh, during his playing days, but also what he’s done for rugby players after he is playing the, he’s very open about his own struggles and what it takes to turn the tide after rugby.

[00:01:00] So looking forward to our chat.

[00:01:02] Justinus: And with him, we have Gus that finds himself in one of the prettiest states in the us Colorado, one of my favorite destinations for skiing. Gus, welcome and very excited to learn from you, um, and, and just have a great and honest conversation, uh, today.

[00:01:20] Gus Byleveld: Thank you everyone.

[00:01:21] Justinus: We like to always start with the same question, which is, what is your favorite spring book moment in your life?

[00:01:28] Gus, do you want to take us away and tell us a story, um, that connects you to the box?

[00:01:33] Gus Byleveld: Sure, sure. I mean, there’s many, right? I think kind of a pivotal moment for me that also interestingly played into my view of the world is the 95 World Cup, um, the, uh, the match against Australia. And, uh, of course I would’ve loved to be at the game, but I wasn’t.

[00:01:49] So I was watching it at home with, with lots of friends as one do with a, with a bride, et cetera. And, uh, the first try, or actually the tribe from, uh, that they were scored in a corner, um, which was, um, so. Peter Hendricks. Yeah. But I mean, looked at who handled the ball before it was, uh, you know, James Small and, and us from the Best Station.

[00:02:13] Uh, they’re not with us anymore, but, uh, legends of the game, Joel Strunsky, uh, and just, just scoring that try in the corner. And I think it was kind of, for me, the way I experienced it was South Africa announcing ourselves as here we are, you know, you guys have ignored us for a little bit. Uh, but, but here we are on, on the world stage.

[00:02:33] AJ Venter: Yeah. For me, this, in my personal space, there’s two, one obviously in 2000 when I got selected to play for the spring box when I had my first cap in, um, Wales. That of, of course I’m sure Flip will say the same. That’s, that’s obviously the biggest moment in one’s career. Uh, you know, secondly, second to that is in 2004 when we won the donations and the last game played here in Durban, and being from Durban, that was, that was very cool for me.

[00:03:03] But I must say, just for now, I mean I’m, I’m not sure what you think flip, but what we are noticing right now, what we are living right now is the most incredible moment in Springbok, in my opinion, history. What we have seen since 2019, or since Rahi started over the last seven, eight years is, uh, we will only look back years later.

[00:03:28] How amazing the time is for the spin box right now. I think. I think we are pretty lucky to actually be. Witnessing this and watching it with the BA every Saturday or Sunday.

[00:03:37] Flip: Yeah, definitely, definitely agree with you that, uh, aj I think we are, we are witnessing, and I, I had the pleasure of speaking with, uh, we did an event in London with, uh, Steven Cutoff on Friday before the match in Paris.

[00:03:51] Actually, I was just told people I think we’re busy witnessing an, an era of springbok rugby and rugby in general, um, of so many great teams. You know, the French, the Springbox, uh, the Irish supposed to be good. Hopefully not in two weeks. Uh, but the all blacks are exceptionally good and just so many, uh, as you said, 23 players these days.

[00:04:13] Not just 15 or five, six players in the team. That’s exceptionally good, but 23 exceptionally good players. Um, everywhere. I think we busy. Busy witnessing a, a great, a great, a great rugby era to be part of. Um, and much better to sit on the side and watch it these days. Uh, I’m, I’m, I’m hurting when I see those animals run at each other.

[00:04:35] Um, aj uh, take us a little bit through you. You know, growing up in the free states, um, we both went to school in Bloom, uh, arch enemies on the, on the rugby field. Uh, our, our two schools. I won’t tell what we called you guys behind your backs, but, you know, um, where, where did it start for aj? Where, where, where did, when did you know, um, you’re gonna become a, a great rugby player?

[00:05:02] AJ Venter: So, um, firstly just, and I think you know this, but I, let me, I went to a school called Louis Bertha. So, um, when, when, when Flip said arch enemies, it wasn’t, it wasn’t really, we were the guys that got. 70 points every time we play against great college every year from standard six to metric. So yeah, arch enemies is not, it’s just we are the ones getting beaten every time.

[00:05:30] So it was so lovely when, and, and this is a nice story, maybe it’s to start off. So for, for my whole high school career, I would get not aware of like, guys between 50 and 70 points every time we play great college. And so of course as a child, I’ve had a deep hatred for the great college guys because it’s not like a, it’s not nice to lose that, uh, much.

[00:05:55] And so after school, I went to the Army and of course in the Army you. You play with it with guys and three years older, it’s perceived to be a bi guy with a harder bike, you know? So all of a sudden I’m in the army and I’m playing with these fit animals in the army against the Gray Os, and I’m now studying for Atla.

[00:06:18] And the year after that I go play for great, for Old Grace. The club. Now I’ve got Pete Bester with me, Andre Bester. These guys are 30 years old. So now all of a sudden I am the peacock with these animals next to me, and we are drilling the, the, the, the university guy. So I had a bit of payback at least years later, playing, playing against, uh, all the guys flip.

[00:06:42] Um, but yeah, so I, I mean, I, I grew up in a beautiful area of the country called the Southern, Southern free state, close to Goldsburg in a, in a town called Peti. And I, my, my first memory of rugby was before school when I was five years old. My. My dad just, I’ll never forget it, I was still just playing around the field and the next thing my dad said, come, go off, off you go.

[00:07:04] And I was crying, no, no, no. Come, come, come. And, and he just chucked me into the field. Didn’t know what I was doing, but that was my first, you know, memory of playing a game. And then those days, you, you guys, you would know flip the fields were full of duries, uh, little thorns, and you’re playing barefoot and in a free state in the winter it’s iced.

[00:07:23] So it’s a, it’s a hard school, uh, to start doing. But that basically is. We, we, I remember my, my rugby starting.

[00:07:31] Flip: That’s a good memory, aj. The only reason Gray scored so many tries against RTS is because you didn’t wanna fall on that field. It was so hard, uh, that we just kept the ball in the air and just kept running.

[00:07:44] You know, that’s, that’s the, that’s the only thing,

[00:07:47] Justinus: guys. You also come from one of the great rugby schools, uh, in South Africa. I believe they ended up number one this year. Paul. Boy, I, so, tell us a little bit about your origin and your journey in Paul Boyce.

[00:07:59] Gus Byleveld: Yeah, I, I always have conversations with people and, um, you know, they, they joke with me.

[00:08:04] How do you know which school I’m from? Uh, because I tell them. And, uh, I, I think the, I think the great, great college guys have have sort of the same joke that they deal with, uh, all the time. Yes. I grew up in Powell. Uh, I was, I was born and I went to. To, um, to Paul Boys. My dad was there as well. So sort of second generation.

[00:08:23] My earliest memory of, of rugby in, uh, well, boy, primary at that point, uh, was the, the red and blue teams, um, at, at, uh, when you in grade one, you, you would divide it into red and blue teams and, and you also played, um, barefoot and running around. Uh, a memory for me that stands out is I so happened to start my school career with, uh, the children of John Gainsford and Tiny Niland and, um, so, um, I kind of had these springbok legends, um, you know, in and around us for our entire, um, rugby, um, primary school career.

[00:09:04] Justinus: Yeah, those school memories are so fun. I mean, grew up in Pretoria, played on a lot of ice fields as well. Nothing as bad as I’m sure as bloom fontine, but, um, so, so aj, you obviously then, um. Started playing and eventually, uh, had a great, I think W Cup was, was, or, or I don’t know what they were called, the Lions in the late nineties and then made your Spring book debut and then that was that insane game in Durban, I think in 2002 against the All Blacks.

[00:09:37] I actually have a funny story about that. I was in Durban, um, with Pride Property and our offices was in Durban and was dying. I extended my flight instead of flying home on Friday. I extended it to the Sunday, but I had didn’t have a ticket for the game. So the Saturday morning still hunting for a ticket, we ended up going for a run on the promenade, uh, in Durban.

[00:09:59] And there’s this guy standing with a sign saying he’s got an extra ticket for the game. And I obviously immediately ran to him and started talking to him. And it turned out it was a French guy that secured two tickets for him and his girlfriend to come watch the All Blacks play in Durban. And just before the trip he broke up with his girlfriend that ended up coming alone and, and he had this extra ticket.

[00:10:20] So, so made friends with him and watched the game with him. And there was this obviously insane incident of, of Pete fan sale running onto the field and tackling the ref. And you were one of the guys who pulled them apart. So yeah, tell us a little bit about that story.

[00:10:36] AJ Venter: Well, when people ask me, I always say it’s so, it’s actually so sad that there’s guys like flip.

[00:10:41] When they talk about this, their career, they talk about a, a world cup and a this and a that. And then even if you Google me, the first thing that comes up, the guy that hit the supporter. It is, it is, it is funny to talk about, although it’s, it’s, it’s stuck with me, unfortunately. So, um, rather than having won the World Cup is the guy that punched the supporter.

[00:11:06] So I just remember I was, I was playing lock, the right hand side lock with tight head lock. And I just remember if we were in, in the scrum and I remember seeing a, a guy with jeans, jeans, blue jeans, and I, I just immediately knew that there’s something wrong. Um, and as the scrum broke up, I, I don’t know, it’s, I don’t know why I, I, I just felt like I need to just go there because I think instinctively I knew there’s something wrong.

[00:11:40] Um, yeah, so I just, I ran up in the, the Richie did the same, I obviously watched the video now afterwards, and Richie did the same. Uh, we managed to, to get him off. I will say, and no disrespect to the referee, I, I, I don’t see where he is actually hurt himself. Uh, apparently dislocated the shoulder, but I don’t, I don’t understand what happened there, but I, maybe he was, didn’t, did feel maybe he got a bit of a frightened and just wanted to go off for that day.

[00:12:06] But, um, yeah, I, I mean I, I I, I must say that I did give Pete a few, um, uh, I dunno if you can say PK on this thing. I did gimme a few of pks, uh, on the nose. So yeah, it was, I think he learned a good lesson on Pete, but he was, uh, I do remember Pete was on fire and he was, he was full of, full of the banana and go that day.

[00:12:27] Flip: That’s excellent. Um, like so I was, I was still a school it back then, uh, when that happened. And that was actually, can imagine. That’s all we, that’s all we wanted to see is a, a, a couple of big as being thrown around. So it was actually quite, it was actually quite good. Um, aj, I, I actually want to jump, jump, uh, jump a little bit backwards as, as, as you did the opposite of, of a normal rugby player as you went overseas quite early to get some experience and then came back to South Africa, uh, quite fast.

[00:12:56] Um, take us, take us through that, that experience a little bit ending up in Italy and then deciding to come back to South Africa with a little bit of a harder. Beard and a, and a bigger body, I imagine. And then actually, actually, um, making quite a big impact quite early. Uh, at the cheetahs,

[00:13:13] AJ Venter: the, the pasta didn’t do me any favors in Italy.

[00:13:16] I got back very fat. I weighed probably 120 kilograms. Yeah. So I was, I was, I think I was 21 or 22 and uh, I, maybe we might be 21. And I was playing, I dunno if you guys remember Nely Smith Gu, I think you guys, you’ll remember Nely Smith, who was the cheetahs coach and, um, nearly, uh, was coaching the rego team, the Italian team rego with when NA was playing.

[00:13:41] Kind of, they both made Ravigo famous in South Africa because Nas was playing there. I was struggling to get into the free state team, so I was playing free state B free 9 21 and one afternoon, um, nearly just said to me, uh, would you be interested to go to Italy? Now I have never been outta the country.

[00:13:56] I’ve been to Cape Town in Urg, uh, and I’m from Montane, I’m from the farm and I wear kaki clothes, so I. Immediately said yes. It sounded like an awesome trip. They were paying me 9,000 rand for the month. Uh, they gave me a house and a car. I mean, are you kidding me? That’s incredible. At the time, I mean, it’s brilliant.

[00:14:16] You can’t not say yes to that deal. So I immediately agreed. Flew to Italy and the guy, they could take two foreigners in at the time. And the other foreigner was a guy called Christian Stewart. Now, I don’t know how many of you know stories about Christian Stewart, the smoothest cat in South Africa on the rugby field, and, uh, Christian from Cape Town.

[00:14:35] Obviously, uh, you know, he knows what diesel genes are. He knows what Versace is. I had no idea. Christian till the day tells the story of he walks down the airport down the road, um, step where in the airport in Joburg. And he sees this guy from the other side, full carkey clothes with a comb in the sock.

[00:14:56] Now, that’s obviously made up. The comb in the sock is made up, but that’s the story tell tells people. And, and this guy came across and said, oh yeah. So this is what he tells people. Basically when the first day he saw me and Christian and I, we had, uh, an incredible time in Italy. I ended up staying for three seasons.

[00:15:14] I ended up, uh, marrying an Italian lady. I have to say that I absolutely fell in love with Italy. I love that country. I love the people. I still have friends. I still speak Italian. And it was at that stage where I had to decide, am I. Am I, am I gonna stay and live in Italy or, or am I going back? I was playing with the idea and, uh, the Springbok seven size, believe it or not, uh, called me and said, look, they, they touring South America and, and they want me to, to play for the seven side.

[00:15:46] And basically that’s where everything changed. So I went on the seventh tour. That’s another story, but, uh, I only played one game on that trip because of a tummy bug. But anyway, got my seven I, I played, I played three minutes, I think there was a three minutes, and I got my seventh gap. Uh, and I came back and I decided to go back, come back to Africa and, and, and give it a full go.

[00:16:04] And that’s basically when everything started. And, and as you said, I came back and I played for the free state and the lions and so forth. Yeah. That’s the story with, I love Italy. I wonder, I wonder when I live there.

[00:16:15] Justinus: Oh, it’s amazing place. Uh, lots of great ski resorts, which I love. Um, guys, so, so you left Paul and decided to study architecture.

[00:16:24] Tell us a little bit about that journey from architecture to software.

[00:16:29] Gus Byleveld: Yeah. Um, yes, um, I did and um, I worked in a practice, um, in some west as my, as my first, or should we call it internship. Um, I had a. A wonderful senior partner, uh, that I worked with. Uh, I started drawing the lines that I was taught to do, but I didn’t really have an appreciation for, uh, the impact of architecture.

[00:16:55] And, um, as luck would have it, I’ll give my age away. Uh, but in those days, uh, windows 3.1 came out. We got into the world of 3D modeling and, um, animations and designs and, um. I kind of took on the mantle of being the technologist, uh, in the practice. So the architects designed all these wonderful things and I built the 3D models on a 2 86, uh, PC with, I think it was eight megabytes of Ram or something like that.

[00:17:25] And again, that company, um, you know, put me into the world of, of technology. Um, and I was very fortunate because I was working for people that that really mentored me and, and scaled me into this, this world of technology. And it laid the foundations for what I am today, which is a technologist, but the business side of, of technology.

[00:17:45] AJ Venter: That’s it. I wonder, again, if I can jump in. This is so interesting, GU so, uh, tell me if I’m wrong. It sounds to me like you’ve, you’ve made a very successful career out of something that you’d not initially studied, right? So this thing. Uh, you like you said. Yeah. And that is such a beautiful be because I, I mean, I didn’t study at all, so everything also in my business is just through purely being under pressure, having to do something and scraping and managing to path this path open.

[00:18:12] And I think, I think so many kids these days are dead set on. I study to be a lawyer and I’ve gotta be a lawyer, but that is not always how it works. Yours is a beautiful story of. Having to just, just because you enjoy this thing and, uh, exploring and all of a sudden this thing opens you Yeah, I,

[00:18:31] Gus Byleveld: I, you, you’re spot on that that is exactly what happened.

[00:18:35] Um, I would wish to take credit for actively making those decisions in, in, at, at those times. Um, I, I don’t think I was that clever, but I think, uh, I think the, the opportunities that presented itself right, was to go and I think the world has just changed, uh, dramatically from, from, from those days. Not always for the better, but you know, the things that, you know, my son is 16 and the things that he sort of experiences with the concept of the gig economy, which is.

[00:19:05] Uh, I will do a project for you, and then I’ll do a project for somebody else. So I’m fascinated when you went to, I don’t know, um, uh, whether I’m allowed to ask these questions right now, but I’m, I am fascinated, uh, with, with, when you went to Italy, here you are from, as admittedly from Bloom, Fontine, and you know, you’re going to Italy and you know, I mean, you are a bruiser and you could destroy people on rugby field, but how did you deal with that emotional stuff of having to cope with all of this, because it’s a big move, right?

[00:19:34] So yeah, it’s just a, I’m curious, uh, from that perspective. So yeah,

[00:19:39] AJ Venter: going to eat with me wasn’t a problem. I, and, and, and the reason is because I, I was so confident of my playing abilities. So I went in the easy, and, and I don’t know if flip, flip, you can talk about yours, but for me, that what you’re talking about now happened with me post rugby.

[00:19:54] So now, so remember, I, uh, you, you start playing rugby when you 20 or 19 and your peers, your, your schoolmates. They now start studying for two or three years, then they’re going into business at 21. They are in a role at the bottom level that we just said. So they’re starting now. They’re building, building confidence.

[00:20:12] They, they, they’re starting to earn more and they, they built this confidence over 10, 12, 13 years. I retired at 35, which is quite late. And at 35 I had to step out from this, this, this thing that I’m doing that I know so well and that I’m so confident in. And I’m, and I’m, and I know what I can achieve here.

[00:20:38] And I step out there and I go into business and I start where you, where you, where you just said where my peers started when they were 19. And literally that’s, that’s, you know, few rugby players step out of rugby into a seniority level at the same level, for example. So, or that’s either you’ve got a family business.

[00:20:59] Somehow through rugby, you’ve managed to build a business, which is very, very little that people can do that. But the most, most of the players step from there, step down, and now you start building. And that, for me guys, was, was very, very difficult. I had to dig deep to firstly find what I want to do.

[00:21:21] Remember I didn’t study, so I had to now start maneuvering and scratching. Um, so that, for me was, was difficult. That was difficult in, in the sense of after having to find myself after rugby, what is that thing that makes me, what is it that, that, that, that makes me aj? Um, and, and just the challenges of business, being an old man and, you know, you’re like, you’re an old man really in, in business and, and you, and you sit with, you start with, with, with kids again.

[00:21:52] So that wasn’t easy.

[00:21:53] Flip: That was difficult. That is so true. And, and Gua, thank you for opening up that, that conversation because that’s, uh, that’s, that, that’s the reality we have. And I often when we explain, and we had just did as we spent some time this week, and I told him as well, you know, it’s, if you unfortunately serves as nothing to put that you are a springbok on your cv.

[00:22:11] That’s not, that’s the hard, the hard part of it, um, is, you know, I, I would wouldn’t give anything else for it, but it, it, it doesn’t give you, get you a job anywhere, but it does teach you a lot, lot of resilience. And, and aj I want to quickly go into this because it’s something that we have in common as, as we played a lot of rugby around World Cups, but never in a World Cup.

[00:22:32] And you were famously snubbed in 2003. A lot of people would say 99 as well. You were, you were at your prime, uh, prime. And uh, if I’m not mistaken, were you 2003 marathon match or 2002 in a character pile?

[00:22:47] AJ Venter: Uh, I, no, that’s 1990.

[00:22:51] Flip: 1999. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I, I remember because I remember that one of the ones we like you the best players in Africa, uh, and then you don’t make the World Cup squad.

[00:23:01] Um, and it, it’s quite a, it’s quite a tough thing as a rugby player, you know, to, to build on that ultimate stage. But you know what, it doesn’t, it build character. How did you use that setbacks or how do you form those setbacks, you know, to build a guide that’s today, the Confident Guide that’s today?

[00:23:18] AJ Venter: Hmm.

[00:23:19] Someone asked me this question in a podcast, uh, a few weeks ago, and I would say that, that the question for the, from this person was what did, what did you fall back on in your career when it went tough in business? And for me it’s a following in, in the 12, 13 years that I played professional rugby. Um, I, I’m not sure what that percentage is, but I’m gonna guess it’s around about 50%.

[00:23:41] 50% of the games are one and 50% of the games we’ve lost. The famous old story of Michael Jordan, not that I’m Michael Jordan, I’m just explaining at that level. He’s one of the world’s greatest sports legends, but apparently he’s winning and losing stats are very close to 50 50 or 50 or 60 40, something like that as well.

[00:24:04] So does that make him a loser? No, he’s an absolute legend. So those, those wins and those losses, those are the things that, that as a player makes you grow and makes you, because you know, all of us, we’ve lost in business and won in business. And the same in sport. The sport, the in sport, it’s just, I, I, I don’t know if it’s the same, but in sport it feels like it’s more often because it’s every Saturday.

[00:24:31] Every Saturday you wanna lose. So when after rugby, when things were, were going tough, that is I think where I even unknowingly I was, I was. Taking from those moments that you, you lose a final. And in 2000 and was it 2004 that we lost against the bull flip? I think you played that game, uh, when Brian scored the last try.

[00:24:57] Did you play that game flip? Yeah. So, so for, for, for us, that was, that was a massive, massive, of course, we, we, we, we felt that was our game. It was over ski Novas, you know, and then we, we lost it and that’s when the bulls started their incredible 10, 12 year drive. So those are big losses and it, and it takes it from you and we’ve all had them, but, but I think late in life, when it, when the chips were down in business, I could look back and take from there and go, right, so what did we do then?

[00:25:28] Well, Monday we went back, we did the analyzing. We started from pace again. We started building, we changed what wasn’t working. And so these things sound like normal things when you’re rugby player, but those are the things that you have to take on. Right. What have, what have we done in those situations?

[00:25:46] Can we, can we duplicate it here? And so for me, that’s, that’s basically what I took from rugby. All the things from rugby. When you’re lost, how can you implicate it or duplicate it in business to, to

[00:25:57] Justinus: improve. That’s awesome, aj, because it, it feels like in business, we definitely don’t, like I, looking back on my career, I don’t think I’ve always done that.

[00:26:08] I haven’t after every loss just gone back into that same routine and built back. Um, and, and, and that actually just creates the pathway for the next success, right? That gives you a starting point of, of how are you gonna build back and then next Saturday you’re gonna have another opportunity to win the game.

[00:26:24] Um, gua you, you ended up in software and, and you started building a international career, and then at some point you decide, why don’t I move to Colorado?

[00:26:34] Gus Byleveld: Yes. Again, um. I would, I would want to take credit for, for making decisions, uh, along this way. Uh, but, but things happened. We just couldn’t get traction.

[00:26:45] Uh, right. But then the startup that I then joined, uh, that eventually took me to, to the us um, and, and you know, bootstrapping it from here, selling to Europe, selling to Australia, that’s one thing. But then around 2015, we had the opportunity to raise some capital from. You know, as people would say, Silicon Valley, uh, so, uh, Sandhill Road in, in San Francisco, you know, where all the famous investment houses are, et cetera, raise some money.

[00:27:16] But the, the terms were that certain key individuals in our company need to come to, to the us and, and I was one of them, um, the founders of course, uh, because that’s the brains behind the business. But as the revenue generator in the startup, uh, I had to go. So at 44, I had to make the decision, do I uproot everybody?

[00:27:41] Uh, my, my wife, my son, um, do we back up and do we get on a plane and do we go to the us uh, to, to start over? And we did make the decision to do that. Now, there’s a lot behind that. I won’t carry on with that, but I just wanted to say that how I got to the US and one of, maybe one of the. The reasons why I made the yes decision was my insatiable appetite to be inquisitive to, to learn to, to, to do new things.

[00:28:13] It’s a hard way to walk, walk. I mean, most of the gray hairs on my head is because I’m, I wanna know how things work and then I have to start again. And, you know, it’s being be, be, be, be, be at the bottom, uh, the bottom of the, the food chain. So I wanted to get through the glass ceiling, the glass ceiling of comfortable in South Africa, having my network.

[00:28:32] Flip: I think it’s not coincidental that, you know, in the, in the agile world, you, you get scrubs involved in huddles and, you know, and, and, and experimentation is, you know, about testing and breaking and, and, and rebuilding. Um, I often use the rack b uh, energy in, in, in business because, you know, we get. Instant feedback.

[00:28:55] Uh, as I just said to me, you play every Saturday. Uh, you start on a Monday, you play Saturday, you instantly know if you had success or not. Whereas in the startup, um, you built these things and you get projections, or 15 years, 20 years from now, we will be at X. And, you know, you raise capital and traction or no traction.

[00:29:16] And, you know, some people even exit the business and still don’t know if they were successful or not, you know, um, if they failed or not. Um, um, you know, because it’s, it’s difficult to judge success. And then in rugby you do it in front of 80,000 or 3 million or how many. People and they judge you. They say, well, your team won, but you flip, you were a bit lazy yesterday.

[00:29:38] AJ Venter: Your, your Sunday, your Sunday report rating.

[00:29:40] Flip: Yeah. Yeah. You get a book report. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your grandmom calls calls you and say the book report set, you have to pull up your socks. You know? So yeah. There’s, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of business lessons to learn there. Uh, uh, and, and there’s some great, there’s some great stuff we can keep on all day.

[00:29:56] AJ Venter: Look, I don’t know if we, I, I just wanna, I don’t know if I’m gonna ever get the chance, I don’t know if this is out of this, but I, I, I am, I have been so impressed with what you’ve done with the running, and I hate running. And about two years ago, I tr I, in my mind I thought I wanna run a hundred kilometer trail run.

[00:30:12] I actually started training my knees packed up, had double operation, and tried again for three months, and realized to stop. Actually, can I ask firstly? Well done, bill. I mean, that was unbelievable. And I see you’ve got a new goal now, but what made you, what was the, what was the kick,

[00:30:30] Flip: first of all, if Uni backed up, I, I’ll, I will blame it on your coach.

[00:30:33] I don’t know who your, who as your coach, but, um, and, and just is, just join me. He is. He is the newest guy. He is. He is gonna join us next year. Next year, August in, in this year as well. I, yeah, I had to, I had to start doing it. Um, and I, I, I’ll quickly wrap it, start doing it to get out of my own head, and that’s what I wanted to do.

[00:30:52] We, um, you know, first think first of all, as men, second of all asset Africans, we love doing hard things and getting it done, you know, uh, proving ourselves we can do something incredibly hard. Um, even as a professional rugby player, I never ran more than five kilometers. Um. In my life, uh, at my leanest, I’m around 118 kilograms.

[00:31:16] I’m, I’m, I’m a big bone Afri G boy. Um, so I, I, I, I needed to, I, I, like the challenge was put to me by Wingman Coach Stefan. He put it to me and I just, you know, um, I’d got taught so much in terms of life, again, into take big extravagant goals and break it down into daily, hourly, little sessions, um, into doing it.

[00:31:42] Uh, and it was actually quite easy. Um, Justina’s year, ran for the first time in his life. Ran an hour, uh, when was that? Uh, yesterday, yeah. Wednesday ran an hour and, and it was quite easy. It might have died about four times, you know, during an hour. But afterwards the, the reward was good. So, uh, yeah. Thanks aj.

[00:32:05] But, um. Um, so much lessons that we learned and taking on big things and breaking it into smaller little durable tasks. Um, um, like in anything, I think Augustine, Justine, as you guys could say, if you take on a big business, that’s the, that’s the most difficult part, but the most essential part of any business is those little daily hourly task.

[00:32:27] What do I do to become just a. Incremental, little bit better.

[00:32:31] Justinus: And I think, um, aj, the way Stefon does it is amazing. And what’s interesting for me is like you, I’ve tried to take on these challenges before and I failed miserably. And what’s amazing, both with training for the, um, iron manual triathlon, and the way Stefon does it is I only have to run two times a week.

[00:32:49] I only have to swim two times a week. I’m on the bike two times a week. So it doesn’t feel like that monotonous running every day. And then he really starts small and just builds up consistently. And he, and he takes a complete scientific approach. So, so for me, that’s got me already two months in way further than I’ve ever been able to do on my own.

[00:33:09] So having Stefan as a coach has been a game changer completely.

[00:33:13] AJ Venter: So this is something you, this is something that you do across all sectors, right? So this is, uh, you, that’s what you’re saying. Flip this is in business, is this in sport? This is in weight loss. This is in your health. I love it, man. That’s so cool.

[00:33:26] And rather, rather do the big things than the small easy ones, isn’t it? Like Well, I’m, I’m very impressed. All I’m trying to say I’m very impressed. Well done. Yeah.

[00:33:35] Flip: Very cool. No, that’s great. Thank you very much. Uh, um, but yeah, a hundred k trail run, um, maybe, maybe next time. Um, I, I, I still need to, I, I, I have to go for the full Iron Man again.

[00:33:50] Uh, you know, because we have to be a little bit crazier and, you know, I’ve got two very small kids, you know, so that’s the best time to do it. Of course. Um, yeah. So aj, I, I quickly want to jump, sorry, uh, you know, to, to get away from that, but, so you had an extraordinary career, uh, um, winning the carry cup.

[00:34:09] You know, I, I was lucky to play with the Bulls and we won three super ies and um, uh, and I’ve done one carry cup with the bulls, one carry cup with the cheetahs. Um. Extraordinary that that trophy to lift it. I think that’s the best, that’s the best feeling. And you’ve done it with three teams, different ones, sir?

[00:34:27] Um, you did it with the, with the Pro. Where’s the province as well?

[00:34:32] AJ Venter: No, no, we actually, I actually won only the 99 1 with Alliance. The, uh, the other, I’ve, I’ve had a few finals, but only the one carry cup, uh, victory when I was playing for the Lions in 1999.

[00:34:46] Flip: Another thing we have in common, I, I played six finals with Glen Ferran only won two.

[00:34:51] You know, that’s bad as well to, to, to lose those things. Um, and then retired you said at 35, which is, is is a good distant career. Um, how did you, how did that happen? How did you decide what’s next? Um, what, what, what went through your mind?

[00:35:11] AJ Venter: Yeah. So retired at 36, 35, 36, which is quite late. Um, and. Uh, I, I didn’t really know what, what I was going to do.

[00:35:21] So I luckily, you know, made a bit of money, saved a bit of money, um, and I, I had some time to think I, you know, it took 3, 4, 5 months and started talking to people. And, um, uh, my, my, my, uh, my stepbrother’s, a guy called, uh, Martin Center, very successful businessman from, from Paul, who’s got, and Martin, uh, got me an interview with one of the guys at SSO Wealth, which is the high net worth part of the bank.

[00:35:53] And I, I got to tell you, I do not know how I got that, uh, job course. I know nothing about banking at the time. I don’t know anything about investments. I don’t have a degree in it, but I do remember going into the meeting and saying to the guy, look, I, I, honest, I was honest. I said, look, I do not know anything about banking.

[00:36:14] If you give me a year or so, I’ll learn as much as I can. But what, in the meantime, what I can do is I can open doors to, in, uh, uh, high net worth individuals just due to my, uh, rugby past. And they said yes, unbelievably. I, uh, from playing rugby, I started working for, uh, Absa and that just started this path of business development, but with a bit of a twist, a bit of a niche angle where I, I started working with High Net with individuals, uh, you know, businesses, uh, big businesses to get them onto the, the bank.

[00:36:52] I, after, after that, also worked for, uh, old Mutual in the same space. So over that next five or so years, I, I took the, the, the rugby black book that I have and expanded into business and in high net with people. And so I. After five, six years, I realized, okay, there’s, there’s something here. Uh, I didn’t even know this thing exists, but I can open doors for companies and there’s a value attached to that, uh, thing that I can do.

[00:37:23] And I had one or two of my own businesses, and I’m basically, at this stage, I’m doing it for companies overseas. So I I, there’s still a few things in South Africa, but most of my work now is doing exactly that, opening doors to, uh, the correct people within businesses as well as, uh, private people. And there’s a value to that.

[00:37:45] So, gu, what you’ve said now, now about going out to America, taking that risk, I’ve done this two years ago to the uk and currently I’m angling towards the USA and I am in this space now where, and then, like I said, can’t talk too much about it, but I’m an in this space where I’ve, I, I feel like a 21-year-old again, I’m, I’m, I’m.

[00:38:08] I’m, I’m attacking and targeting this brand new thing that is so foreign to me, and it feels like it’s so far. But if I look back at what I’ve done in the UK over the last two years, I realize, okay, it’s not, it’s the same thing. Whether it’s the UK or the US or the tu, it doesn’t matter. You just replicate what you’re doing.

[00:38:28] So it’s so interesting that we speak about, speak about that. So, yeah. Uh, I hope that answered the question. Sorry, I don’t even know where I’m going with the, with this.

[00:38:37] Flip: It’s good. Get it out. Get it out.

[00:38:39] Justinus: Yeah. That, that, starting over in that, trying in a new context, whether it’s like after your rugby career or, or a new, uh, career, uh, professionally or moving to a new country is such a challenge.

[00:38:51] You, you, ’cause you. You, you don’t know what you don’t know, and you’re walking into something where some of your familiar assumptions you’ve held all your life might not be valid anymore. Um, tell us about your experience doing that in Colorado, guys. Now you’re in a new place running this business, you’ve just raised money, you’ve moved country.

[00:39:10] What are some of the challenges you’ve there? Wow, where

[00:39:13] Gus Byleveld: do I start? When you uproot yourself when you are in your mid forties and, and move to a, a different country was the task of starting from scratch, from the ground. Um, it, it is an exceptionally humbling experience. Um. It, it’s definitely the hardest thing that I’ve tackled, uh, in my career and personal life, uh, thus far for very many reasons.

[00:39:42] Uh, when we hit the ground in the us, uh, we quickly realized that what we’ve been selling in South Africa, in Europe and Australia won’t sell in the US for the reasons of, uh, different economy, a very mature internet infrastructure. Um, for example, we, a lot of the stuff we built was what’s called intermediaries, and intermediary is a big thing in South African financial services where you talk to a broker.

[00:40:08] Right now, the US don’t really have that structure because everything is online. It’s, it’s internet. You, you do everything online. Now you can go to these big investment houses and you get a private investor and stuff like that, but generally speaking, you don’t talk to an intermediary. You talk to the principal.

[00:40:24] Like old Mitchell, uh, like ajs as, as mentioned. And so what we built up couldn’t be sold because nobody wanted it. So a, we had to find a new industry that, uh, needed what, what we want, uh, what we give. And secondly, I didn’t have a network, you know, in South Africa when I wanted to sell something and I wanted to get into that company, I can pick up a phone and say, can you please introduce me there?

[00:40:49] I wish I had a AJ in those days. It sounds like you can get you in anywhere, but, uh, you know, maybe I’ll still give you a call after this, but, uh, you know, the, the, the, the thing is now you don’t have that, right? So how do you approach this now Because you’re nothing. From where? South Africa, a lot of people didn’t even heard of it or certainly don’t care.

[00:41:10] Uh, so you have to now start learning how to go from scratch, from ground level, how to position yourself, how to find value, how to sell. And the one thing I learned very early on is that people there bought from me as opposed from, as opposed to, from the company. So, and, and I use that to my advantage.

[00:41:31] They, they work with you, they trust you, so they’re gonna give you the business. And later on we had to find a recipe where, you know, the company, the technology comes out and you give it to other salespeople and they go out to sell it. But the initial stuff. It is all about the individual. It’s all about the rapport that you can build with person on the other side, that you can understand their challenges and that you can offer them what they need on a personal level, and then you can scale it from there.

[00:42:02] And I think for startups, for, for, for anybody wanting to go to a different country, et cetera, if you’re successful in your own right where you come from, sometimes you, you tend to be very self-confident. Um, maybe you have a bit of an ego, et cetera, et cetera. But if you let those things stand in your way of conquering the new world, you’re missing an opportunity.

[00:42:26] You know, my advice is, you know, um, be quiet, try and be. Um, try and have humility. Be humble. Ask a ton of questions, um, and you’ll be amazed how quickly you learn what this new world wants from you and is willing to give you in, in return and, and bo and built from there. It’s hard. It’s so hard. I had many days when I woke up in the morning and I go, what have I done?

[00:42:55] You know, it’s, it’s just, it, it, you know, and then you speak to your, your founding partner, or you know, you speak to your wife and you get, you get a little bit of energy again, and, and you try again, and you try again, and then you get a bit of success and then he moves forward. Will I do it again? Um, I, I’ll have a few more questions before I do it, but I, I, I, I will do it differently sometimes, but I’ll, I’ll do it again for sure.

[00:43:20] Flip: That’s, um, that’s incredible and so much value that you share with us, Gus, so thanks. Uh, um, it’s actually good to you. Say again, south Africans, we are capable of doing it. I think it’s in our ancestry. Um, um, I’m a big fan of Des Latham’s, the history of South Africa’s podcast. Um, where it goes from, you know.

[00:43:42] Before South Africa even started and where it came from. And, and we are nomads and no matter, no matter which of the 11 orientations you’re from, in, in, in South Africa, we are nomads. So wherever, you know, if there’s, we move to a path of least resistance or the most resistance, and we go against the grain and we plant and we, and, and, and, and we built, um, um, aj you know, going through this, this transition and, and, and you often, and you’re often building and you, you, uh, you are quite vocal about how you’re building and, and there’s, there’s a lot of appreciation for what you’re doing.

[00:44:17] Um, where, where would you say, where was the lowest point in, in your transition?

[00:44:23] AJ Venter: So I think they, yeah. So in, I don’t know. Uh, you guys will all, we all, well flip you younger than me, but 2008, the credit crunch came and had cleaned out a lot of people. I retired in 2009. In 2000 and 2007, uh, myself and, uh, three other partners, uh, invested in a piece of land, uh, on the North Coast.

[00:44:52] It was a hotel site. So I think all of us will remember pre 2008, you buy a piece of land tomorrow, you buy, you sell it for a profit for easy. Um, anyway, I was involved with, uh, a few guys that are, they, they, they were, they were experts. Um, I was along for the ride and a bit of money and 2008 came and the bottom fell, fall, fell out.

[00:45:16] Now we all know that from, since 2000 and from 2008 to 20 15, 20 14, you know, it was hard to. Anything with land. We in South Africa, so right about 20 12, 20 13, the banks came for the money and um, a lot of the money that I saved over 12, 13 years got, got drained in one afternoon. And that was kind of when things started being a little bit difficult.

[00:45:51] Um, at, at the time. Uh, you know, I forget, forget about the years, but there was a, there was a time where I was, between opportunities, between roles and things were just a little bit difficult. Uh, I obviously struggling with, uh, my finances struggling to find that opportunity that satisfies me and that makes me feel value.

[00:46:19] And that was a tough time. That was, that was probably, you know, I’d say my most difficult time and. Um, I, I don’t wanna go in too much of the detail, but I, I, I basically had, there was one particular moment that came over, like, I would say a year of incredible pressure where I, I had what you can call a nervous breakdown and, um, it, it was really, really difficult.

[00:46:42] I didn’t even know what it was at the time. I didn’t know what it was. I just had these bloody symptoms and it was a horrible time anyway, uh, long story short, um, with, with the help of good friends and, and people that could look at my situation just from the outside, you know, often, often when we are in a situation, it is hard and the tough you, it’s difficult to often see the reality or see an outcome or see something that can help you come out of it.

[00:47:14] But someone on the outside looking from a total different angle might just go, listen, it’s not that easy to do that. And so. At one stage, I realized that I’ve gotta talk to, to my friends about this because, you know, it’s always, you said this before, uh, flip. Its, we men, we tough, we hard, we, we don’t often talk about stuff that, that you might perceive to be embarrassed.

[00:47:37] And so I didn’t speak to anyone. I just, when anyone would see me, I would just put on a smiley face. Now everything is fantastic, but in the meantime, I’m poor as it. And, uh, so just, just by talking to some of my friends, uh, you know, things just slowly, slowly started getting better, like you’ve said, doing the small things.

[00:47:59] Uh, of course. It, it didn’t change immediately. It took a year or two for me to turn this ship around and steer it again and, and, and, and moving forward. So that, that I would say was, was my most difficult time.

[00:48:12] Justinus: I’ve been, um, board of EO now for 15 years and I would say. That what you’ve just said, actually talking about things that I never spoke about before.

[00:48:23] The freedom I feel ’cause and you know, we have this idea of a forum, so the small building block of, of six or seven other people that you share with and, and because it’s people I don’t interact with actually on a normal day-to-day basis, you almost feel more freedom to, to be vulnerable and to talk openly.

[00:48:43] But it’s, and it’s not even the advice I get from them, it’s just the ability to say out loud the things that’s been mulling inside my head for weeks or months or years that just provides such freedom and, and actually gives me the ability to be more objective about my own thoughts when I actually say it out loud.

[00:49:02] So guys, what was the lowest point for you in making the transition to the us? I

[00:49:07] Gus Byleveld: think. You, you, you go to a new world, um, which is what we did. Um, and you have that first phase, which is almost the honeymoon period, right? You’re, you still feel like you’re on vacation, uh, because everything is new. Uh, you learning new things, um, um, you’re experiencing new things and, and then the reality sets in you, you don’t have your family with you.

[00:49:39] Um, um, my wife comes from a. Uh, uh, a big Afrikaans family from the farm in Kania, right? So they, they have a whole, uh, sort of network of how they work and, and all of a sudden she can’t just walk over or drive over or fly over to, to go and see them, right? They, they’re not there. Um, in South Africa, we had our support systems, but you then realize, oh my goodness.

[00:50:06] Um, I’m now kind of alone and I don’t have the support systems. Um, now for me, being immersed in business, I, I struck that very quickly because I’m alone. I don’t have a network. I have to build that. But for my family, it was, it was quite hard. My son doesn’t have his favorite friends. Uh, my wife doesn’t have a support system.

[00:50:29] And, and now you’ve got to decide. What do you do now? Because life is really hard. Now just go back to basic principles and go, okay, what are we doing now? We have a few options we can pack up and go home. Um, that’s always an option, right? Um, we can feel like this, uh, and be miserable and carry on feeling like this for a year, 2, 3, 4.

[00:50:56] Or we can get help and get people into our circle that’s maybe gone through this before. Um, reach out to friends, um, us friends and, and start, start with just going back to why we did this and what’s important for us. And, and we decided to do the last one. Took us about six years, uh, to get there after the initial honeymoon period.

[00:51:22] And. You know, a, again, the US context where it takes you a very, very long time to become a citizen. You have to work really hard for it. This is not a negative thing, that is a natural progression, but I, I just want people to, to know that they’re gonna need support to go through this. Don’t try and do it yourself.

[00:51:41] You know, get, get your systems going. Speak to people and, and, and move forward. ’cause it’s possible. As Flip said, we can do anything. Uh, but, but you, you, you do want to do it in a way that, that you come out on the other side, healthy. Uh, that you, that you, uh, uh, have success and, and that you’re enjoying it as well.

[00:51:59] Enjoyment is a, is a big part of that, of that journey. So, yeah.

[00:52:03] Flip: That’s incredible. Gus, thanks for sharing. Um, I think, um, there’s so many people that were, will relate to that, uh, especially South Africans thinking about, you know, they end their prime, um, as a businessman, you know, 45, 50, you’re in your prime.

[00:52:19] You’re the best at what you can possibly do in your career. Um, and that’s when, you know, a big company will see value in and try and place you somewhere where you can create value as rugby players. You know, at 28 or 30 you’re in your prime and they’ll send you to France or Japan or England. Um. And you have such an easy mandate, uh, you just have to go and do and play your game where, where you know, business, there’s a lot more nuances.

[00:52:47] The, the, the skillset’s a little bit different. Um, it’s valuable insight. Thank you.

[00:52:53] Gus Byleveld: Uh, Philipp, if I may add, um, if, if, if I have a, a second to do that, and then I think this context matters, uh, to people that’s thinking about living in other places in the world, et cetera, et cetera. The, the big wall I ran into is that people blame me because all of a sudden they thought, I thought South Africa was not good enough for me.

[00:53:12] And they thought, I thought I was better than South Africa. And it’s really not about that. I didn’t run away from South Africa. I’m just on a personal journey, just, it’s got nothing to do with South Africa. I’m on a personal journey and my personal journey took me to the US and again, in this world of where people see what you do and they make assumptions about why you do it, and they just blame you, right?

[00:53:37] It’s, it’s hard. When family members and people close to you turn around and go, you’re crazy. You know, you, you think you’re better than us. Why do you want to go there? You know, it’s, it’s great here. And, and never in my mind was their statement of America’s better than South Africa or South Africa’s better than America or Colorado or this or whatever.

[00:53:57] It’s different. That’s a fact. It’s different, but it’s not about running away or not facing challenges or anything like that. It’s about, I have a personal journey and I do believe I have a right to follow that personal journey. And so I don’t need your support, but I also don’t need to you to break me down because you don’t understand what my personal journey is.

[00:54:17] And I think, you know, sometimes for rugby players, uh, you talk about the back page of the report or you know, all that kinda stuff. And, and, and maybe you guys and Flip can, can talk to me about that, but it’s, it’s, and your public figures, you know, I’m not, if I make a mistake, nobody knows about it. It doesn’t appear on the, on the Sunday new newspaper, but it’s just that.

[00:54:37] People make assumptions. May maybe you had an off game. Nobody asks, why did you have a off game? They just go, you had a off game, you’re bad. You need to pull it. You get a three out of 10 or whatever the, the, the thing is you, you said earlier, right? But it’s just that what I’m calling for is that understanding why did you have a off game?

[00:54:56] What’s happening in your, you’re a human being. You maybe have personal issues or maybe your dog has mad at you or something. And that doesn’t mean you, you’re not good at what you do. You just can’t perform at that 120% where you have to be on that specific day. And I think there needs to be understanding and recognition for that, I feel, uh, from, from a, from a bigger audience.

[00:55:19] So, yeah.

[00:55:20] Justinus: But I think guys that, uh. Very interesting point to make. And, and I, I still feel like personally I’ve had that struggle as well is that there’s two things. That’s one, the perception of South Africans abroad about South Africa that’s very murky and challenging. And then the perception of South Africans abroad by people in South Africa.

[00:55:41] And, and I think part of the journey flip and I would like to do is, is to make these personals tell these personal stories so that we can reframe that discussion and that we can see people, south Africans that’s gone out and been successful in the world as some of South Africa’s greatest export. And as people who can come back and help South Africa because of the success we’ve had abroad.

[00:56:03] Uh, instead of the old sort of traitor mentality that I think, um. Sh said some of the context, so, so I thank you for sharing and thank you for being willing to, to, to talk about that. So, aj, if we move on to sort of lessons and, and making the full circle back where, where you now, what’s that that you are looking to achieve in the next few years and, and what maybe some of the lessons that you’ve learned from the journey so far?

[00:56:30] Hmm.

[00:56:31] AJ Venter: Good question. So the, the most, well, probably the most important thing that happened to me is, uh, I’ve found the most incredible women in my life. What most incredible women for me, always, always, when I say this, for me it’s, people always think that, but my wife is better. No, it’s cool. Your wife is best for you.

[00:56:53] For me, I found the best woman in the world. And uh, we’ve got a beautiful little family. Danny’s got two daughters. I’m stepfather two, step two, then. And, uh, I’ve got a, I’ve got a total different focus on life now. And, and again, I’m the step, I’m a stepfather, but for me, they are like, like my own children.

[00:57:13] So, so my, my focus and goal has definitely changed to, I was single for a very long time, just AJ just worry about me, just focus on me and, and now I’ve got a family to look after. And so that has kind of put me in overdrive with what I want to achieve and where I want to achieve. So, uh, for, for a long, for the very longest time, I’ve, I’ve always had a certain number.

[00:57:43] Financial number that I want to have when I’m 60, for example, I always thought if I get that number, then I’ll be happy. Now that number is totally blown out of the water currently because of my family that I’m gonna look after. So, so in the last few years, I’ve gotten through an interesting, uh, let’s call it reprogramming of my mind.

[00:58:03] And, and it, and it actually started with something that I’ve seen from Elon Musk and I’m, and I’m gonna blow this up. Uh, it’s not gonna be right, but it’s something down the lines of why don’t you try and do your 10 year goal in one year and if you fail, you’re still ahead. It’s something like that, that that is said.

[00:58:20] And, and that’s kind of what, uh, I, I took on board and I’ve, and I’ve taken that little number and I’ve, I’ve made it 10 times that number. I said, right, that is what I wanna achieve. And. And just because of that, I, I believe just because of that, certain other opportunities came across my path, which I acted on.

[00:58:46] Um, and so, you know, my wife always said, you’ve got to put the energy out there. You’ve gotta put the energy out in the universe. If you don’t talk and say that’s the goal or that’s what I wanna make, if you don’t say it, if you don’t tell it to someone else, if you don’t plan it, it’s nothing. If it’s just in your head, it’s nothing.

[00:59:04] And so I’m actually going through that little process now of, and I’m 52 years old, I’m not a youngster anymore, might be able to work then I’m 65 or 70. So I give myself 15 odd years to, to get that 10 year goal into one year and to get that number that I’m aiming for. And, and I’m doing that through, through various things.

[00:59:26] And, and like I’ve said before, there, there, there could be an opportunity in the US just doing business in the us. That might assist my, my very, what is the word, uh, glamorous goals to achieve. Um, yeah, so I, I, I do a lot of work in the uk. Um, again, same thing as I said before, opening doors, getting the right people, uh, around the table for deals.

[00:59:56] And I, I have to say it, it is lovely living in South Africa and earning, um, pounds. That definitely does help the course a little bit. So yes, I’m, I’m very excited about my future and the future of my family. And, um, it’s, it’s like, I, honestly, I’ve said it before, I feel like I’m 21 again. Uh, with, with the lovely opportunities at hand.

[01:00:20] Don’t look to anyone.

[01:00:23] Justinus: Yeah. Carry the scars of a 50-year-old, but split it of a 21-year-old. Gus, for you, big

[01:00:29] Gus Byleveld: questions you’re asking here at, at the end of the, almost the end of discussion. Uh, yes. This, um, I, I’m at, I’m at the bottom floor again. Uh, so I’ve, I’ve transitioned out of, uh, the business we successfully transplanted to, uh, to the USA, um, really great company, doing marvelous things.

[01:00:54] Um, but it’s time for me to take on the hard thing again. Um, so I’m at, I’m at the bottom floor of this building, and it doesn’t have an elevator at this point in time. Is, is my metaphor for, for it. I’ve just launched a new, a new company, uh, just me. There’s nothing special around it. Um, and the mission of it is just to help founders, technology founders, and early stage companies to figure out how to build a company around their idea.

[01:01:25] Um, my expertise is in revenue generation. Uh, that means so much nowadays with technology, with artificial intelligence. Um, we don’t have boundaries anymore. You can do business anywhere in the world if you want to. Um, there’s a lot of complexities. I’ve got so many scars on the back of doing things and trying things, and I, I believe I can help these early stage companies and founders create a strategy and, and, and just, you know, be excited about the things that they’re doing.

[01:01:57] Um, I’m carving out a very specific area in the business for South Africans, south African founders. I personally know how difficult it is, uh, to spread your wings out of South Africa as an entrepreneur. Um, we had to go through that, you know, simple things like intellectual property and, and how you have to work with the Reserve bank and, you know, all those kind of things, um, cost us personally.

[01:02:25] Company, but you know, hundreds of thousands of brands to learn those lessons and understand how you do that, how you spread your wings outta South Africa with a regulated environment to the rest of the world, which is definitely more welcoming to the concept of a founder and, and a startup. I think South Africa still has regulatory things we have to work through with regards to making it easier to build businesses here.

[01:02:49] So that’s what my new venture is all about. I have no idea how to scale it yet. Um, but it’s, it’s just about the next year for me with regards to trying to add value and pay the bills, um, and then figure out what this thing could become, uh, and understanding if it’s valuable, is that what founders want?

[01:03:10] Um, you know, I, I think that it’s valuable, uh, but typical to a startup, you, you still want to figure out, you know, so I’ve. I’ve joined some networks. Yesin is, that’s how you and I, uh, met, uh, which, uh, I’m still grateful for to today. Um, in this week I’m in South Africa. I met with, uh, two founders and, and one company that’s, um, doing very well, but they, they wanna break through grass.

[01:03:35] Ceiling. Um, I’ve offered my time to, to work with them and I’m very excited about that. Uh, so that’s what’s next for me. Um, yeah, I, I don’t have a condensed my 10 year plan into one. Um, at, at this point in time, uh, for me it’s about going back to that ground four level. Have to be humble, you know, with humility, learn whether people would actually want what I have, uh, and then try and build a business around that.

[01:04:04] But here’s what I’m certain of is that people like us on this forum and others, if we can go in in the world and show others how you. Work with people. Um, just, just show a little bit of respect. Don’t be condescending. Uh, don’t, don’t break people down because you have a Facebook page and your fingers are itchy on a Sunday morning, but rather try and understand.

[01:04:32] Where somebody is coming from. You know, I’m, I read, I don’t know if you guys have, but I read this series of books called The Go-Giver. I mean, it’s very thin books four, there’s four of them. Fantastic. I would always recommend people to read this series. There’s a Go-Giver, then there’s a Go-Giver leader and salesperson and all that kind of stuff.

[01:04:51] And when you first read it, it’s such a hard concept to even think that you can implement. Um, but I think I wish more people would, would sort of operate, you know, uh, on, on that level. And I, and I’m not saying we’re all gonna sit under a team B philanthropists and not earn a cent because we still have to look after ourselves and grow our own businesses.

[01:05:12] We are, uh, entrepreneurs at heart. We are, um, you know, we are in, in economies to, to, to build, uh, a comfortable lifestyle for ourselves, whatever that means for each of us. But. If we can go out as business leaders and just show by example how business could be done in this insane world right now, uh, that is just, it feels to me is just propelling towards more rudeness and more aggression and all that kind of stuff.

[01:05:41] Then I think by example, we can, we can, we can, we can help other people. Um, we can still make our own money, uh, but I think that we can work ourselves towards a future that’s a little bit different to, to the one that we, that we have right now for our children and, and for other people. And, and maybe I sound a little bit lofty and airy fairy and iffy, but I know that our difference is on grassroots, you know, the people we talk to.

[01:06:06] Um, but, but I still believe we can all carry that out. And you could disagree with somebody. You don’t wanna buy this stuff. You don’t think they’re great. You, you think they played a bad game on, on, on Sunday or Saturday, and you can do all those kind of things, but just treat them with respect. Just say, no, I don’t agree with you.

[01:06:26] Or, uh, I think you didn’t have your greatest game. Right? What do you think? Or whatever. And, and that’s really where I wanna go with this little business of mine. Uh, don’t get me wrong, I do wanna make money, but I think the ethos is the, is the important thing, uh, around that. So that’s what makes for me, uh, yeah, you in this, based on your question.

[01:06:45] So, yeah.

[01:06:46] Flip: So that’s amazing. Uh, I, I think you’re on the right road. Gus, um, put humans first in a technology era that we are in. Uh, you’ve lived through the.com bubble. Um, personally I think we are heading there very fast again. Um, so people needs to be put first. We have a little tradition on the Winning The Away Game podcast where we let our guests, our guests, um, ask each other a question.

[01:07:11] HB four Beauty. Gus, you can go,

[01:07:14] Gus Byleveld: I can go first. Yes, aj, uh, I, I, I do. I do have I many questions for you, but you are only allowed to, to ask one. Right? And that is, how did you experience the pressure? Uh, so my son, you know, he’s, he’s got springbok idols, right? And, and all our friends have, you know, I’m a Sea COIs fan or even it Abit or whatever.

[01:07:39] How did you experience that pressure of younger people and other people sort of idolizing the kind of things you do? Right. Because we see that persona, you are, you are on the field, you are destroying people. There’s just blood everywhere. Um, and it’s like, wow, what a person, you know, all that kind of stuff.

[01:07:58] And did that create a pressure from you experiencing that people sort of expect this from you and make you an idol? And, and if it did, how did you work with it? Uh, how did you. How did you control it? Uh, because I guess it, it, it, it could pile a lot of pressure on if you’re that way inclined. But yeah, I’m just very curious, you know, how did you operate in that world,

[01:08:22] AJ Venter: if I’m understanding you right.

[01:08:23] I, I, I understand you correctly, but, uh, the, I’ve never really felt pressure from, from, from supporters and spectators. I strived for that attention. I, I wanted to play in front of the thousands of people. I, you know, you, you want to play for the spring box, but it’s lovely to play in front of the fans and it’s, and it’s exciting afterwards if people recognize, ’cause you’re just a child.

[01:08:51] I mean, it’s, it’s, uh, I feel it’s a, it’s a natural thing to not, not to be famous, but to, to, to get attention. Someone to tell you Yes, but you’re a good player. So, so I don’t, I really didn’t feel any pressure from, from supporters. It. It is it with where the pressure comes in is, is when you don’t do well.

[01:09:14] It’s when, uh, you are 11th in the super 12. That is when, when the, when the pressure comes in and, and, and it, it, it takes it back again to, those are the times where, you know, you’ve gotta dig deep, you’ve gotta go back, you’ve gotta make sure you get out of this position of 11. Next year you wanna be in the first, or second or third position where the fans, you know, you can look them in the face again.

[01:09:42] So, yeah. So I would say that the real pressure was when it, when the chips were down, but when the chips were up. That’s everything that’s going on, Korian and life is good. Right? So I I I hope that that answers, uh, the question. So, so my question, I, what I actually, I was actually asked, thinking about this question before, but, uh, uh, Justina’s answer or flip what you saying asked already, and of course it’s, it’s got to do with, with my aspirations, uh, in, in doing business overseas and, and in the us And my question, and I’m gonna ask it again, but it’s very similar.

[01:10:17] My question was that, that, that, that moment or the moment before, you’ve got to make the decision on going overseas. What would be the, what would be the checks to go, okay, check, check, check. If all these checks are done, it means I, I, I’ll go overseas and I know it’s a difficult question, but, or not, not just go overseas, but work overseas.

[01:10:44] What are those checks? What are those things that’ll go right. It’s a, it’s a green light. It’s, um,

[01:10:51] Gus Byleveld: it’s a very interesting, a very interesting question. Um, I, I can only share what my experience, um, I, I think going to do business in a different country is a little bit different than going to live in a different country and do business.

[01:11:10] So my perspective is the latter going to do, going to live in a, in a different country and, and do business. I did not do checks and balances and a wishlist and say that if these ticks are there, it, it, it’s going green and, and I can do it. Um, and the reason why it didn’t. And it turned out to be right. I didn’t know I was right then.

[01:11:36] It was just an experiment. But the reason why I didn’t do the checks and balances is because of what you’re experiencing on the other side is never what you thought you gonna experience. And therefore, it’s very easy for those check marks to all be erased. And then you go, oh goodness, I was wrong. So what now kind of thing.

[01:11:55] Um, I, I think going to a different country, go and live in a different country and, and try and do business. There has to be, at least for me, driven of the principles or the things I want to achieve or, you know, how I want to be perceived as a person or how I want to do business, right? So it’s things like, do am I clear on why I’m doing this?

[01:12:18] Why am I going there? Um, because that’s a longer term commitment than a checkbox. And you will go like this when you go on this journey and erasing a checkbox may dishearten you or you think, oh, I was right. Right. So it, it’s kind of could make you lost, lose your way unless you know where you’re going there.

[01:12:41] And, and the, the, the other thing, uh, that I would consider, I don’t think I’m gonna go and live in another country again. I think I’ve done my, I’ve done my bit, although I’m with you. I would also live, uh, I love to live in Italy or south of France or all those kind of things. And, and, and, and maybe I’m good enough to one day go have an extended vacation and things like that.

[01:13:03] But it’s, for me, it’s about what difference can I make if I go there and what’s the purpose that I want to fulfill. It could be a monetary purpose, but it could be a combination of things that gives you your purpose. And because this whole thing of moving or doing business in a different country or going to live there, it is a journey.

[01:13:33] It’s not a, it’s not a singular event. And you’re gonna find that you’re gonna find different people on your journey. You’re gonna be knocked down, you’re gonna walk this way for a while. Maybe you’re gonna go backwards for a little bit. But ultimately, for me, it’s about that rather than enough ticks to say, I’m gonna do that because this is ultimately a leap of faith.

[01:13:55] It’s not, there’s no you, AI hasn’t got a bot for us that we can go, if, if all these things are true, then you’re gonna be successful. It’s a leap of faith. But you are, you have to have your components in it that you can always go back to and say, I’m good at this. Paraphrasing, I can open doors. I did it in the uk.

[01:14:16] I can do it in, in, in the u In the us you, you have to go back to those things that you believe you’re good at, because when times are tough, you’re going to need those. And, and they are much more granular than, than, than, I know that’s not what you said, but they are more granular than a tick box. They are, you know, sort of things that move around and, and that you have to reevaluate on a constant basis.

[01:14:37] Justinus: Thank you. Awesome. Thanks guys. Okay, so last question for both of you guys. AJ mentioned the Golden, or I think Gu, I can’t remember, go the golden era of spring rugby that we are in now, about this time of year in two years time in Australia will be the World Cup. Where would you, uh, what’s your plans and where are you gonna be watching the World Cup?

[01:14:58] We obviously hope for a, for a final that we can play and, um, where would you be watching it from?

[01:15:04] AJ Venter: Well, I am going, I’m definitely gonna be on my couch with a beer that’s very important. And if possible, a Carling Black label. Uh, I’m, I’m, I’m the only guy in my circle of friends that drink Black label or I love it.

[01:15:21] I am not sure exactly where I’m going to be, but I have to tell you that I am very excited about the World Cup. I feel when the, when in the last World Cup, I was a little bit worried at when I thought, oof, are we gonna be okay in the next World Cup? I think we are going to be incredible with these one or two, three youngsters that are, that are putting up their hands right now.

[01:15:44] So I’m very excited.

[01:15:45] Gus Byleveld: Yeah, I, I, I certainly share your excitement. Um, with, with the new school of, of youngsters coming through and the, the ethos, the, the, the machine, uh, of the spring box, I, I think it’s, it’s gonna stand us in good state. I do hope that we don’t win by one point again, but a bit further because it’s really not good for my heart to, to have these three games in a row with one point and all that kind of stuff.

[01:16:11] But I’ll be, I’ll be at home all with friends in the US and we’ll be watching it at some ungodly hour, I think. Um, and, um, uh, we won’t have beers because, I don’t know, it’s too late or too early or something. Um, but, uh. It’s never too late or too early for a bit. You’re right. Yeah. I’m also very much looking forward to the World Cup in the USA in, in 31.

[01:16:36] Um, I, I do hope it materializes. I know there’s some, you know, some, some talk and rumors and, and maybe, and maybe not kind of thing, but I can promise you then I will be in the stadiums and I will be supporting, uh, the spring box, uh, as, as best I can. Uh, but yeah, it’ll, it’ll probably be at the home with, with rugby man friends and, and, and watching it on a streaming service.

[01:16:57] So, yeah.

[01:16:58] Justinus: Awesome. Thank you very much guys. I really appreciate it. It was fantastic. I think, guys, as you said, one of the, one of our big supporters in the podcast is The Lack Network, and I will both introduce to Flip and, and guys through the Lack network and it’s just amazing what community we can build as South Africans abroad and, and have conversations like that.

[01:17:19] So I want to thank both of you for being here today and, um, being vulnerable and, and willing to talk to us about the ups and the downs of life in rugby and, and abroad. And it’s really a, a pleasure and a, and an honor to be here.

[01:17:32] Flip: Yeah. Thank you very much. Uh, I think there’s valuable lessons, uh, between the four of us, uh, a and to the people that’s gonna listen.

[01:17:40] There’s a lot of, a lot of things to take out. Uh, we could have gone another two hours, I think with, with all the things this, I’ve got so much, much more questions. Um, but, uh, it would be great to to to stay connected, um, wherever we go in the world. Uh, we stay South. Africans, our roots are deep. Uh, and thank you for the value you guys added today.

[01:17:59] Gus Byleveld: Well, thank you for the opportunity. It

[01:18:01] Justinus: was, it was really great to be here. Thank you for listening to today’s episode of Winning the Away Game podcast, where we talk about business, rugby and life abroad as a South African. Listen to all 12 of the episodes in season one on your favorite podcast platform and YouTube.

[01:18:16] You can follow us on social media flip, and I’m particularly active on LinkedIn and we love to have a conversation with you and understand some of the lessons and learnings you may have found living abroad. We flip and I both part of the Laer network, which has been instrumental for us to put this together and we’ve super excited about connecting with South African spread all over the world.

[01:18:37] So if you’re South African and you find yourself in the most strict pla remote place on earth, we would love to know who you want us to indu. Which Spring book or which business leader would you really like to learn, uh, and hear from? Um, we are here to create community and bold connection with South Africans no matter where you are.