Episode 5: Running Toward Purpose, Not Away From Pain

[00:00:00] Justinus: Welcome to Winning the Away Game podcast. Today I am coming to you from Sunny Boss Alona and very excited about today’s episode. Flip.

[00:00:19] Are you ready for another spectacular episode?

[00:00:22] Flip: Just, yeah. We’ve got two great guests, uh, uh, sharks Stall, walked through and through Sharks man. Um, he is, he’s represented ster monster, Leon, and even as we suddenly realized Beri as well, um, I’ve got a big thanks to him. Uh, he helped me across the line for my first and only Springbok try.

[00:00:43] We have PJ Weta.

[00:00:44] BJ: Thanks guys. Appreciate, thanks for having me

[00:00:46] Justinus: and with him. Another, uh, export from KZN, somebody who works for my favorite brand, other than the Springbox, which is Nandos. Uh, anybody who follows me online knows that I’m completely and utterly obsessed about Nandos. So Linda, super excited to have you and, and to chat a little bit about your journey as well.

[00:01:08] Linda: Yeah, it’s wonderful to be here.

[00:01:10] Justinus: Okay, so our first question we always love to ask guests is tell us a little story about your favorite spring book moment, whether that’s a big one or a small personal one, whatever. When you think about your favorite Spring book story, what, why do you think about, tell us, bring us into your world and tell us about it from your perspective.

[00:01:32] Linda, do you want to go first?

[00:01:34] Linda: Yeah, I’ll go. I’ll go first. So, um, you know, brought up in South Africa, uh, in Peter Marburg. I’ll admit to everyone. Yeah. Up until 1994, I had no clue what rugby was all about. All I know it’s a sport played by white people and it’s a tough sport, and it’s guys that are big and strong that play those sport.

[00:02:00] That’s all I know. And, and I really go back to 1994, right? So 1994 was, you know, the year that we had the World Cup in South Africa. Um, you know, Mandela did an amazing job. He said, you know, how can I bring this nation together? And by bringing the nation together, let’s do it through sport Now, what it did to someone like me, uh, coming from the, the background that I come from, that I have no idea about this, this rugby, and also it was intimidating because it was the so-called white man’s sport.

[00:02:35] Because we know we are hosting the country. Nelson Mandela supported this, the sport. We then got in and I mean I was, um, I was like a, you know, I was 18 or so at the, at the time, we all got in there as a community to start learn the sport. The little that we knew, we, we got involved. We said we got the World Cup coming into this, into the country.

[00:02:59] And that, for me is a golden moment. And that was a moment where, um, I remember my community, my friends, my family coming together and watching a sport that we’ve never watched before. So, so that for me is a golden moment, my first entry into, into the sport. And then from there, you know, I got involved in watching the spring bugs and then fast forward where I am like a proper fan living in the uk.

[00:03:27] BJ: I would say mine is in a similar line. I think that highlight of 95, you know, is across everyone’s really memories, and I think it’s a great time. You know, one of the biggest moments really, but I suppose I’ll take it one back, and it was a semi-final against France, being from Durban and knowing that it’s been raining nonstop.

[00:03:47] And it looks like we have to start building boats because we are all on no way out. And, uh, we worrying about the game going forward, not about survival. And uh, suddenly you get the guys on the pitch and they’re sweeping the field never seen before, and everyone’s coming on board and there are things putting put down and plans in place.

[00:04:08] And we know that this game has to some way get to assist the community and the people and everything. That reminds me of being South Africa, even back then, you know? Mm-hmm. Coming through and making the game happen, which was a hell of a affair as we know. And we got through. And I think that was the game for me.

[00:04:23] That was the critical part. Of course, we, we were facing, you know, old foes in the final, but yeah, that French game, it was a really dangerous side and people don’t really look as much back in what we faced there in that semifinal. It was a, it was a massive game and I think it was just on the, on the balance because of the fact of the French and the flair and the weather and everything about that.

[00:04:43] So that was a memory that. For definitely because it was at my old ground, Kings Park and, uh, being there in person and then obviously going on then to win it. And, uh, yeah, setting the tone as a, as a, as a 14, 15-year-old, you know, um, impression by his heroes, you know? Mm-hmm.

[00:05:01] Justinus: Yeah. Lovely. Living in France. I wanted to ask you this actually last week and I forgot, but living in France, do the French still talk about that 1995 semifinal and what’s there?

[00:05:11] What did they say?

[00:05:13] Flip: Uh, so outside of 2023, um, 1995 is a very, very s topic for them. There’s, uh, you know, rumors about Rolex watches that was given to, given to the ref before, and, and, uh, and Lou liked, you know, the, it was cheating to actually clean the field and, you know, the game should have been pulled off and whatnot.

[00:05:34] But yeah, um, actually made very good, good friends with some of the people, Lauren Kaban and, um, Olivia, me, that played, played in that, in that game. Um. Yeah. So if I, if I want to, to trigger them a little bit, um, like I’m doing this week walking around my springboard jersey where, you know, I just bring up 1995.

[00:05:55] BJ: Well, I think, uh, just off the point, I think, uh, both two players from that team returned to play for the shocks, Laqua, and, uh, and they returned to come back there. It was. And those guys are you, I’ve met, uh, you know, a few of the guys from back in the day or top, top, top people, you know.

[00:06:11] Flip: Yeah, yeah. I even Yeah.

[00:06:13] Played there as well. Yeah, he did. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, so BJ and, and, and you Yeah. You are a Durban boy. Through, through, grew up there, went to school there, um, played many of the big, big games. Uh, we reminisce a little bit about directly. We played against each other. Yeah. Um, tell us about the, your, your background.

[00:06:34] What, what, what built bj? What made bj. BJ today.

[00:06:38] BJ: Well, I think it’s intro in the sense of where I come from. Uh, you know, actually we grew, my, my, my father was, you know, transferred quite a bit. We, we traveled quite a bit. We lived in Rustenberg, Newcastle. Then we actually spent some time in Old Bloom Blumes about, uh, went to old small primary school there that everyone knows about, and, uh, kind of, uh, spent a few years there up until Standard four back in the day, and then moved, uh, to Durban.

[00:07:00] And then I think, uh, you know, I think everything really changed for me. I think from a rugby perspective, it was really ingrained from my days in Bloom. Um, and, uh, you know, I felt that I wanted to, you know, still try and, uh, some way perform in the rugby field. And I think that was when you enjoyed it most.

[00:07:17] But there’s whole wave of. Uh, literally of, of spending time on the beach and, you know, learning how to surf and all this other part took over. So, you know, my growing up was very much about being dropped off on the weekends at five o’clock in the morning, spending the whole day on the beach, and then, you know, playing a rugby during the week.

[00:07:34] And, you know, we had a great time. I mean, I went to a small school, uh, too high school, which was a non, really not one of the biggest schools. And, uh, you know, then was, um, finished off post matric at, uh, DHS, uh, Durban High School. But yeah, I suppose my rugby was in, in a sense, you know, finding a way to, to kind of, uh, in one sense, uh, prove the system wrong with coming from a smaller rugby school and, you know, trying to.

[00:07:57] Trying to, you know, be competitive with our little team. And then, yeah, uh, I suppose in one sense I got opportunities and they, and they worked out. I was, uh, you know, uh, as, as they say, you have to be in, in the environment to kind of get your chance. And I think, uh, I was, I was, I was fortunate enough to be backed by a few coaches along the way, and then I had a special introduction to my, to my club site, which is probably the change the game for me.

[00:08:21] Uh, collegiates in Durban, that was probably the, the, the key part for me where I started playing club rugby. There. We had a really magnificent team and at times we had NT Martins, Trevor Holsted, uh, Wayne Favi, you know, these real kind of legends as you looked up to playing club rugby. And that then I think brought that whole periphery of this being, uh, impossible.

[00:08:43] To the possible, you know, and I think then things started looking a little bit more clearer, even though it was not nearly, not nearly there, but at least it then was, you know, this is where you have to do your hard work. And you know, obviously great relationships built there and people that are still friends with today.

[00:08:58] So, you know, um, yeah, Durban is, is Durban for me, are, are, I love the, the kind of, it was great to be part of those long summers and, you know, tropical thunderstorms and, you know, the humid that you had to play in, in the, in the February march in, in Durban, which, which killed you. But, uh, yeah, um, I, I would say I am Durban through and through and born there, but then kind of moved back full circle as you do.

[00:09:24] Justinus: Wow. Talking about making the impossible possible. Linda, tell us a little bit about your in origin story. I know you, uh, you speak often about the, how your mother set you up for success as well, so yeah, tell us a little bit about that.

[00:09:39] Linda: Yeah, so, you know, a bit of a different story. So both my parents were blue collar workers back then in the, in the eighties.

[00:09:47] Um, brought up with a lot of fear, brought up with a lot of hope, brought up with, you know, what’s happening, you know, in South Africa in the late eighties. Um, and you know, I like, I remember stories whereby, you know, to even talk politics was hush, hush, hush, you know, nobody talks politics. And the nineties for me was just a time of so much of joy, just so much of excitement, what’s happening to South Africa.

[00:10:17] And, um, you know, if I look at, if I look at what my parents have done, they definitely instilled hope. They also gave us, um, they gave us opportunities as best as they could. And when I say opportunities is, you know, my dad was super adventurous for the community that I grew up. He took us to Cape Town. Now guys, Cape Town was big, you know, for, for little community kids to go in, in the early nineties to, to a trip to Cape Town was just like a wonderful experience.

[00:10:48] And then, you know, going to Zimbabwe for us, uh, also in the early nineties was just such an amazing experience because now we are crossing a border. We are going into another country. Um, so, so life was, life was hopeful, life was exciting. Um, as I mentioned, there were just so many things that we just dunno what was gonna happen in the early nineties.

[00:11:10] Um, but you know, my parents, my parents, what they lived with us is to study, work hard, have a great mindset, make a difference in other people’s lives, and you benefit in some way. So when I think about my days growing up in those, in that township house in peace, in Burg, ca Inn, getting a little bit of adventure that we did as children.

[00:11:36] Then allowed me to then make those bold steps from moving from Peter Marburg going to Johannesburg. And that time Johannesburg was called the city of Gold. When you come from a small town that I did going to Johannesburg, you’re going into the big city. And so when I made the move to London three, three plus years ago, that was even moving to a, like, you know, a bigger, bigger and amazing opportunity.

[00:12:05] So if I look at those, if I look at those movements, you know, it was starting in those humble years, but did I ever imagine like 40 years ago that I would be moving over to a global stage of Glo moving over to London? Not at all, but I’m, I’m thankful for what my parents did. You know that, that hope they gave us.

[00:12:25] Yeah. So that’s where I am now.

[00:12:28] Flip: That’s beautiful. It’s such a rich street.

[00:12:30] Justinus: Bj, you obviously thought it out then in the Sharks became successful, won the World Cup with with the box, and at one point you had to make a decision whether you want to move and to Ireland. Tell us a little bit about that shift.

[00:12:46] BJ: Yeah, it’s interesting one, I even look back on it myself when I look back at my shark days, you know, I almost felt like I wasn’t really under contract. You know, I almost like felt like this is not a job for me. You know, it’s like when I look back and this is my, this is what I grew up to do in the sense of enjoy playing for this franchise.

[00:13:03] That’s all I want to do. Like, I just grew up, as I said, watching the banana boys watching the nineties, sitting in those little bunkies there behind the poles and uh, you know, arriving late and then running around, playing touch rugby on the field at halftime. You know, that’s what it was about, you know, so when I had this opportunity to come overseas, like.

[00:13:20] Okay, now this is actually the real deal. You know, I’m actually signing a contract here in the sense of like, making a commitment for a period of time getting paid to play rugby as such. You know, if you wanna call it that cinder, you know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, you know, you only look it out down the line.

[00:13:34] It’s, it comes in the sense of an opportunity, as they say. These ones don’t come across very often, but, you know, I look back now and I still think, you know what? What decision on, what did I base it and stuff, but, you know, come and see my, see myself now. It was definitely for, you know, the better in the sense of my, my family and where we were going and heading.

[00:13:53] I ever, you know, it was, it was definitely a, a, a cut short. My dream of playing for the shocks for many, many years. But we know this is a, a job in a sense and. Look, that transition was made it a little bit easier ’cause my wife was eight months pregnant, so we were coming o we were coming over. We already had something that was gonna be imminently arriving and you know, it took the whole missing South Africa transition a little bit away from that, even though it was a big shift.

[00:14:18] But yeah, that really kept us exciting. And then obviously landing in a, in ster, which was ster was rebuilding. We had kind of, they had a kind of successful years up until the year, I think, before I arrived. And then, you know, they were trying to rebuild again with new coaches, new players coming in. Robbie Dyke was another eight man that arrived with me at the same time.

[00:14:36] And obviously that opened the doors to all the South Africans that played for Alster. But we had a real rebuilding phase, you know, we were still very much. In the, in the, you know, kind of grounds that were being used as temporary facilities and, you know, you could see that this place, we also wasn’t transition, which was great to be part of.

[00:14:54] Um, but it was, it was, it took some time, you know, to, um, to kind of get to that place. But yeah, I suppose I, I being, uh, you know, uh, for a small town I lived in Klu, so it was a small town where I lived in Hillcrest and, and Klu and coming to Europe, it was a big change for us. You know, we kind of went again now on our own small little family and, you know, dealing with the challenges not only to perform on the field, but also, you know, in one sense, uh, build your life off the field.

[00:15:20] Flip: It’s interesting hearing you guys both from Durban. Talking about Durban being a small place and going to the, you know, I would school a, I would school a bloom. You know, Devon was all like this mystical, the last English, English front, you know? Yeah. No, no, no,

[00:15:35] BJ: we’re not from Durban. We, I said, I’m from Clearfield Crest.

[00:15:39] There’s a big difference. Okay. All the shock, all the sharks were like, when are you going to get your passport to cross the border to get up to fil Crest? I’m like, listen, it was enjoyable looking down, looking down on Durban from the top when you could see all that, uh, kind of humidity sitting on them, you know?

[00:15:58] Uh, sitting in the cooler areas of highway, but no, it was, was small town community living. But uh, yeah, I think it’s, I think it built something in you going forward there, you know, it gave you a network and the community that you could kind of always rely on.

[00:16:11] Flip: Yeah. Linda, so, so you, you, you bear the, the nanos flag quite, quite proudly everywhere and, um, they were the reason you moved from Yes.

[00:16:21] Burg to the uk uh, initially, um, uh, kept keeping that South African culture strong. Um, yeah. How do you guys do it? Hernandez, how are you? So good.

[00:16:30] Linda: Oh, yeah. You know, that’s a, that’s a beautiful thing of belonging to a brand that’s got South African roots that has gone to 24 countries around the world. And I made this move, it was the uk.

[00:16:43] Um, and you know, having that in the back of your mind, knowing, knowing that you can be carrying your South African flag wherever you go, is just special for me. Right. And, you know, I’ll tell you a story, so. Um, I’m, I’m a skilled worker VI in the uk and every time you go to that immigration officer, he looks at that green member of yours, and then he has to ask you a whole lot of questions and he asks you questions, um, what are you doing here?

[00:17:10] I said, okay, now I’m working here. And then he says, uh, what do you do? You give him your job. And he’s got that serious look. And he’s stern looking. Yes. He’s profiling me. I know he is profiling me. It’s okay. Um, and then he says, um, who do you work for? And as soon as I say Nandos, the whole demeanor in that immigration officer just changes it, just so it changes.

[00:17:37] Oh, you welcome, man. Oh, my word. My favorite meal is this. My, uh, my, my, my flavor is this. The guy starts talking to you more than you. You were talking to him. So, you know, that’s, that’s just so wonderful and how powerful like the brand is. And then I remember when I was applying for my US visa, this must have been about, um, three, yeah, three years ago, just before I could relocate I to renew my u US visa.

[00:18:06] And I got into an officer there that you could see his job is not to give you the visa. Now I’m talking about three years ago and I’m not talking about now. Right? But, um, and rightfully so. ’cause he wants to check everything. He wants to check your bank statements, he wants to check your letter of employment, he wants to check your family, he wants to check that you’re coming back to the country.

[00:18:25] Um, he goes through all my documentation and I could see with the people that were in front of me, this guy is not the most friendliest person. Like I think he is incentivized not to give you a visa. I get to, I get to my turn and then he skips through and then he sees, oh. You work for? Oh, you work for Nandos?

[00:18:44] Oh, you know, I love Machu Pea. When I go to the D, when I go to DC I says, okay. And then he starts asking me, why do you not have Machu Pea here in South Africa? It completely changed. The guy stopped going through all the pages just stopped. Okay. So application gone through. So it shows the power of the brand.

[00:19:04] Um, so, so yeah, it’s, it’s powerful to work with an amazing brand like this.

[00:19:08] Justinus: Yeah. It’s amazing how love that changes though. And, and what I love about Nandos is it’s both embodies this. In like in innate South African spirit, but also the success of a South African brand around, around the world. And I mean, Springboks obviously is a phenomenal brand like that.

[00:19:26] So BJ Landing in Ireland, being a Springbok World Cup winner, how did that affect your integration there into the community?

[00:19:34] BJ: Yeah, I think it’s, it did, it did. It did help definitely in, in one sense, but in the other sense there was a huge expectation. You know, I think that’s what the one thing you get about this luck.

[00:19:44] I talk about some of the guys that I’m, that I’m mentoring now and helping through, when you come overseas, you know, you realize that whether you’ve not become a springback yet, or you, you’re from a south, small, smaller school, you’re coming over the South African rugby player. Okay? There’s a huge expectation now, not only now, and it’s the same thing with, I suppose with a brand, you know, that you’re representing and there’s an expectation to this again.

[00:20:06] And it has to, you know, and, and, and it’s not, there’s no transition time. Yeah. It’s from the get go, you know, you don’t have any times to kind of think about, this is now transition time. You’ve got a few games or whatever the case may be. So, you know, look, yet you’re at the ground running. And thankfully it worked out for me.

[00:20:19] I think that’s the, that’s the upside. When it does work and it goes for you, you know, then it does take off, you know, and I, I was thankful for the support around, um. You know, the, the club, you know, they are, uh, you know, it was Northern Ireland, which, which I was told to very, very, you know, from the, from the get go, it wasn’t Ireland and uh, playing for one of the, obviously the Ferraris unions, but yeah, Allstate at its own history and, you know, learn that, and, you know, you, you show that you need to buy in, you know, in one sense it was this buying in and showing you part of that, but then also from an individual to bring your performance.

[00:20:53] ’cause as we know with the team aspect of it, you know, so I had a lot of work to do in that aspect. You know, learn the certain, you know, parts of how the team does play and how you fit into that. But yeah, I suppose in simple terms, sometimes, uh, it, it is easier being upfront than the back. Uh, and, and your job is quite straightforward.

[00:21:10] You know, just take the scrum up and, and, and, and, and, you know, half the job is done. So, um, you know, in that aspect, uh, did the talking on the ground, on the field, I think that’s when things become tricky. If you don’t, I think if you don’t perform, you know, then things do start, run offset. So I think I was.

[00:21:27] Given some good advice, but yeah, it wasn’t easy. I mean, uh, the guys went on, uh, the team that I was part of in 2008, um, you know, the guys went on to win the Curry Cup. I missed my past teammates, guys that I’ve been with, playing with guys like Johan Miller and these guys that I, I’ve been playing with since, since I was 20 years old, and winning these trophies together.

[00:21:47] Um, yeah, it wasn’t easy, uh, but, you know, there were other kind of areas that we were there for and it took some time to kind of, uh, you know, um, you know, to, to kind of get some ascendancy on that. But yeah, it wasn’t easy. It was just, I suppose one part that I was again, there to do a job, um, you know, for the, for the team and, and then obviously as it is with the team aspects of it.

[00:22:11] You definitely, um, the more you put off on, put, put in off the field as well, it does definitely put you in a better place, uh, longer term, because back then it wasn’t like, now open gates, you know, it was, it was still quite new and players were not really coming to Ireland. I think it might have only been one or two guys and Ireland then back then, and then CJ Vanda followed to, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:22:32] But yeah, it was relatively new then especially, uh. Players come to Ireland. We’ve had

[00:22:37] Flip: some interesting games there and, um, in Ulster. And remember you go, when you driving into the stadium, you have to walk in like a little aisle. Um, the people are quite hospitable, um, around around that spots.

[00:22:53] BJ: That’s changed now.

[00:22:54] It’s actually funny enough, they call it that there’s like an arch you had to walk through, you know, and they were waiting for, you know, and I think it’s become too nice now. I think they, they built now a stadium that’s obviously is top and the facilities are obviously needed. It’s not that it’s not, wasn’t needed and sponsorships and stuff, but yeah, that old murky gray that matched the weather and the people that, uh, that have been having puns since one o’clock and, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s, you know, that’s what it was about.

[00:23:21] And I think that’s not missing. But, you know, there was a great arch. I’ll never forget, it’s a clock on the arch as you say, you remember it, you know, um, and, uh, yeah, that’s what makes it special. These areas that you go, that’s, it’s not, maybe you, you, you, you, you find when you arrive in ster, you’re playing against not only the team, you try playing against, the whole province, the supporters, everything is coming at you.

[00:23:43] So it’s, it’s not easy.

[00:23:45] Justinus: I mean, it’s amazing when you play those away games and the crowd and, and you feel like the ref and everybody is against to you, and, and then something actually goes wrong and, and, and it makes it even harder. So, Linda, what was the biggest challenge for you, either when you moved to Joburg, which from Durban or Peter Burg feels like a different country, and then Yeah, moving to the UK as well.

[00:24:07] What’s been the biggest obstacles for you to overcome?

[00:24:10] Linda: I think the biggest one for me is, um, our comforts and, and what I mean by comforts, you know, and I think for Peter Burg, my parents were there, my support network was there. Uh, the way we, the way we do certain things and you know, I remember when I was moving, when I had to, you know, finally make that.

[00:24:35] When I made the decision to move over to the, to London and the, the thought that was going through my head, the thought that was going through my head is, oh, I’m gonna miss my maid. Oh, I’m gonna miss the warm weather. I’m gonna miss my friends. Oh, I’m gonna miss the fancy restaurants that we have in South Africa.

[00:24:59] Uh, and, you know, because I love hiking and I love being outdoors, I said, oh, I’m just gonna miss just going hiking with my friends and, and you know, just enjoying our outdoor activities. I had so many things that, that I said, I’m gonna miss that. I really started to doubt my decision. I really, really doubted my decision.

[00:25:21] But, you know, when, now when I look back, you know. Those, those things had to come, you know, all those fears and uncertainties for me not to move, had to come to like, say, don’t go, don’t go. ’cause you got all these comforts, um, you know, you got you, you live a certain life. You get into your nice fancy four by four and you move from place to place.

[00:25:44] And, and I remember that first trip because, um, uh, I got my job kind of during COVID, just, just on the, over the ends of COVID. And I could only really travel over to the UK towards the end of 22. And I already signed my contract and I’m moving earlier on in the year and I get into the uk. Um, I’m already moving.

[00:26:09] I haven’t been to the UK three years prior to that, so I even forgot how to use the underground system. It was like, I have to go learn all this stuff. And I remember coming out of Ham Junction, which is close to, um, Tappen Junction station on office. And I just get out of the station and this massive wind just blue.

[00:26:30] And it was so cold. This was in November. I told myself, my God, what have I decided? What have I done? It’s cloudy. It’s so cold. It’s so, so d what I, what have I done? And um, and, and that was, you know, that was there. Now I’m so used to it. ’cause what I learned is, is you know, if it, if it doesn’t stretch you, if it doesn’t make you uncomfortable, it’s not gonna grow you, period.

[00:27:04] Whether it was that move from peace of burg over to Johannesburg, whether it was that move from Johannesburg over through to the uk, if it’s not gonna scare you, it’s, it, it’s not gonna grow you. So I mean, now I look back, I’m so used to of taking the tube, moving around. I do not own a car in London. I don’t need to.

[00:27:25] I love taking the bus. I love taking, um, the underground, even the overground. I have gear and clothes that, um, literally covers me from the end of my fingertips now to the bottom of my ankle all the way, put it over my head that when I walk, uh, in January or February, I look like a blanket that has covered me.

[00:27:49] But, you know, you, you gear for it and you know, the things that I missed, you know, um, a simple thing like, um, we got, we are spoiled in South Africa. You know, I had a maid, I had a nanny for my daughter. You learn how to do things by yourself. You really genuinely learn how to do things yourself. You know, I go into a Tesco, I carry the bags in my hand, and it feels humbling.

[00:28:13] It really feels humbling to do that. And I go in, yes, I shop every week. Uh, but, um, because you can, can’t carry a lot of things unlike South Africa, you can put it in the back of your boot. So, yeah, you know, I love walking. Um, I’m very happy that the shops are near me. I, uh, as I said is I don’t have a, I don’t have a car and I don’t own a house.

[00:28:38] And the reason why I don’t own a house is so that I could have the flexibility. So when I think back of all those things that had me fearful, um, it, it’s no longer fearful. The one thing I do miss, I do miss. I do miss our South Africans. You know, I do have my South African friends. We talk a certain language, we talk about certain things.

[00:28:59] We, we do things in a certain way. And, and, and that’s, I, I always miss that. I miss my family. I miss my daughter, I miss my parents. I miss just getting into my car, going over to my parents’ house, having a good meal with my mother and my dad. So I do miss that. But when I do go to South Africa, I do enjoy those moments.

[00:29:20] I, I really do enjoy those moments.

[00:29:22] Flip: It’s beautiful, Linda. And speaking of, of doing things your own, uh, bj, you proud father of six. Bay TV and Liberate. Yeah, no, very poor tv. Very quick tv. So you eventually, eventually hang up the boots. How, how did you get to the decision, uh, to do Okay. What’s now, what’s after rugby?

[00:29:47] It’s a big change with such big responsibility.

[00:29:50] BJ: Oh yes. I don’t think, you only think about that at the, at the end. I feel like sometimes these things do cross over your mind, you know? Right in the beginning, even sometimes, like, you know, how’s this gonna go? This hasn’t happened yet. Really? You kind of got a small contract.

[00:30:03] I think most, my first contract wasn’t even told. I told someone the other day, I don’t think my first contract was even a thousand pounds for the year or something like that. Some ridiculous thing. Wow. You know, like in Theran, um, and uh, you know, you kind of think, well, you’ve made it. And I think that’s the thing.

[00:30:18] It’s not, it’s like, you know, as they say, the old saying goes, you know, the toughest part is not make it, it’s staying there and, and continually evolving, you know, continually evolving your game and people analyzing you as a player and moving on to stuff like, yeah. So, you know, I think you do keep on thinking about when this time might come, you obviously playing a contact sport that injuries happen, you know, all the time.

[00:30:41] And, you know, these things did cross. I had injuries very early in my career, so I had neck surgery already when I was 25. So I was thinking in my late thirties, in my early thirties while there’s this thing still holding to together. Um, and I suppose. In line with that. You know, you kind of put some things in place, you invest in some property and, but, but you don’t really think about it as such.

[00:31:01] I don’t think you think about that day and even when the day comes, I can tell you very much openly that, uh, you still don’t know how to deal with it. There’s no kind of there to go forward with, you know, it’s like evolving your own way. How do you find this? It grows organically in that way. You know, you have your time where you miss the routine of the team.

[00:31:21] You know, you, you, you kind of then thankful you don’t travel anymore, but you still want to play and you know, it’s this whole evolvement. But I suppose as your career goes on as well, all the external things change as well. So obviously when I started my career, I wasn’t a father then, you know, as my years in playing, I became a father.

[00:31:37] So I became a lot more selfish of my time, time with the family, you know, time with my wife, you know, holidays away and you know, I suppose falling. Being away from the big schedules that we had in South Africa, it definitely helped me, you know, being home a lot, often in Europe. So, you know, leading on to the end, coming to the end, it happened just by, again, not like lucid, you know, uh, finishing off it was an injury.

[00:32:00] But then I came back from the injury and, you know, some things didn’t happen format wise of the coaching staff and stuff and you know, that was it. And there’s no like, oh my words, big sendoff. It was, that was it lights off, you know, like, okay, well how do you say goodbye? No, that’s it, you know, kind of. So, um, of course there’s no, I think anyone has some, you know, kind of lavish, only very few have some lavish kind of go away and thanks for coming and you know, ya kind of, uh, you know, retirement check.

[00:32:30] But I think in that time, you know, I went into, you know, a mode of trying to keep busy. I think I did a few. Um, you know, a few long marathon, uh, I suppose a few Ironman and I did a few kind of cycle races and trying to keep yourself busy and in that current routine. And I think that’s part of working it out, you know, finding your way forward.

[00:32:51] And I think that was the part of me that I didn’t realize at that stage that it was just kind of, you know, what’s next. And I was, um, I was, went straight into coaching in, in a capacity and I think it was maybe a little bit too premature, I suppose just naturally you always go into coaching and then, you know, took some time to find out what my next step is.

[00:33:10] And then I suppose later down the line, COVID hit and I was starting to do a little bit of consulting around the scrum stuff. And then, um, you know, COVID, uh, put that on the, on the, on the kind of back burner for a little bit. But I knew that that was an area that I definitely wanted to, you know, go, go back to because of what I was given over my career.

[00:33:29] You know, coaches that believed in me, but also specialist coaching. Um, and then especially the new formats of rugby now, I think it’s very much needed and it was taken upon, you know, well, so I want to continue with that. Not because of creating a business, just because it was enjoyable, wake up in the morning doing it.

[00:33:46] I think that was a key part for me. That was my, that was what I was passionate about, you know, and I could spend hours and days and weeks doing it. So yeah. Evolved into that. Um, but, you know, I think fast forwarding this is, it’s, it’s, it’s happened slowly. You know, I think it’s, you, you definitely are those areas where you kind of test the waters and you know, you’re unsure of, of, of, of something that you actually don’t have the control of that like you think you did when you were playing.

[00:34:10] Because at the end of day, when you play, you know what you need to do to prepare in a week of, of, of, of a game. And, and there’s. If there’s only a few things that can upset that, you know, you are generally in control of what you can do on the weekend, and you have to kind of get those things in place, and then you go out and you, you, you control what you can do on the field where these other aspects after rugby.

[00:34:32] There’s, there’s a support side of things that you don’t have, you know, this control or this understanding or this symmetry or this cohesion with anymore. It’s, it’s a lot about even just the conversations with people you’ve never spoken about or need to make new relationships with. You know, these challenges around that.

[00:34:47] Do they, are they on your, they’re not on the same wavelength, you know, it’s not like critical timings around in a game. You know, you speak to one play, tell him one thing quickly. There’s no personal things. You might tell him something in a way you wouldn’t tell him off the field, but it has to happen quickly.

[00:35:02] And that’s the way you do it over and over and over and again. And that becomes part of your blueprint, you know? So you have to learn this whole, you know, transition around how to deal with that and build and relationship and connect and something I wasn’t good at, you know, I was very much, I loved, I loved the old school after dinner.

[00:35:21] Um, you know, make connections and stuff like that. But when I was traveling, I found sometimes I probably didn’t resource that as much as I think some of the players did because I felt that, you know, get back to my family, you know, get back to get back to my family. I was being away for so long and then you kind of lose that.

[00:35:36] But later down the line, and especially now, I just, it’s gave me the skills and there’s no doubt that I understand it a lot better now. And it’s given me, you know, some insight into the areas that are, that are that, that the contacts and the people around you are, those are the people that are your support network over and above the main people, which is your family.

[00:35:53] But you know, I think the big part that you fall back onto and I think my transition was definitely, there’s no doubt, you and your family, and I think that’s the other part to this whole thing being overseas, you know, and I think linking in with that, there’s no ways. I was, I was always given this saying around, you know, you could be the, the, the, the ship can be, um, um, unstable, um, at, at your team.

[00:36:19] Okay? And it can be, you can be losses over losses, over losses, but if the ship is unstable at home and you’re playing overseas, you’ll be home within a year. You know, I can tell you that much. There’s happened countless times where if you are winning and things are going great at the club and you know, the opposite is at home, you know, as I said, you’ll be home.

[00:36:35] But it’s really important. That aspect of it, you know, whether you are a wife or you’ve got a partner or children or not, doesn’t matter. I think your, the stability around that has definitely, uh, you know, put me in a place that I could stay overseas for so many years, and still I’m overseas and that whole team, you know, that we, I have like a full eight anyway team.

[00:36:57] But, uh, that aspect is huge, you know, and I base everything on that, you know, all of that is, is based on that and how we, how I build on that and thankful for that and the things I, I’m in business, in the business world and now, you know.

[00:37:10] Justinus: Wow. Team of eight. Man, respect. I, I have to say that out loud. I’m, I’m a father of two and, and I, I, I can’t even imagine what it must be like with a 17-year-old and a six month old that is just a new, I mean, is that honor or easier than, than playing professional rugby?

[00:37:33] BJ: Yeah. No, I would say, you know, you lose, you lose the battle after, after three. There just, I mean, that’s just, you call it quits, okay. Don’t you just then try and treat, it’s treading water, okay? You, you never, you never just above shoulder height. And I think that’s the key. But within that, you know, you do, you also very wary of, of the environment that’s there.

[00:37:55] You know, I think with the, with the, with the children, I think it’s important that they are, as much as they vary in age, they, they’re a little clan on themselves within themselves. You know, they’re looking after themselves, they’re developing skills between each other and, you know, come from a bigger, not that big family, but a big family myself.

[00:38:10] But I remember that and I remember, uh, even though my children are not with their cousins because they’re in South Africa or somewhere else, I think within that is the network of brothers and sisters that, that those, those, those bonds that will form there now or forever, you know, and I think they’ve got something special there for, for the rest of their life and, uh

[00:38:29] Speaker 5: mm-hmm.

[00:38:29] You know,

[00:38:29] BJ: that’s a great thing. Awesome to see as a parent, we are just there to facilitate and making them ready for when they are, you know, for life. Um, and we don’t have them forever, um, in, in the house. And we, we realize that, but you know, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s exceptional, obviously, um, kinda responsibility and fortunate to be in that as, as much as, you know, you are treating water a lot of the time, you know.

[00:38:53] Flip: Hmm. Thanks man. It’s incredible, Linda. So, you know, you guys are managing to keep that South Africanness, and I think that’s a, that’s a, a thread that’s keeping throughout the conversation today is, is, is our, uh, our South Africanness. Um, you often talk about, you know, the, the power of the collective. Um, yeah.

[00:39:17] Um, you know, what is the, what is the practical tactics that, that you use, uh, you know, to, to empower others and, and to put others, uh, in, in a, in a better position to, to perform?

[00:39:28] Linda: Yeah. You know, um, if I look at my team. Um, so, so I’ve, I’ve got a team of people in South Africa, uh, that do a global supply chain role.

[00:39:39] And I run the source manufacturing plant for Fernando’s that supplies the Southern Hemisphere. So if you go into Fernando’s in South Africa and you pick up a bottle of sauce, whether it’s South Africa, whether it’s the Middle East or Malaysia, Singapore, or you in Australia, Sydney, just remember that Nando sauce is made in South Africa in Meran by a plant that I manage.

[00:40:02] So, you know, when I look at, when I look at some of the things that I had to do to bring in this connect nurses, you know, as a leader, first and foremost, people need to believe in themselves. Okay? But a lot of people don’t believe in themselves. And I’ll tell you, I go back is bringing the South Africanness.

[00:40:19] When I did this role, we did something bold and daring as we South Africans do. Um, I brought a team of supply chain people to do a global job. That is the first time we got a team of South Africans to do a global job. And that is why I so promote South Africans doing global jobs. Um, you know, the, um, our English is very, very good.

[00:40:42] We, um, we just, we just got an attitude of just getting things done. And the third one is, um, you know, South Africa has been through such tough times throughout our last sort of 20, 30 years, tough and good and challenging. Um, and times to adapt that our, just our people, you know, the Rosa in us has just bolting our DNA.

[00:41:06] So whether you are having supply chain issues in Australia, whether you are having supply chain issues going over to the US and South Africans, just know how to do it. And that is why my team does a phenomenal job. Um, so me as a leader, the things that I’ve had to do is, so this is the other challenge, is I am in the UK and my team is all in south.

[00:41:29] Learning how to connect with them virtually has been tough. It has been tough. You know, no matter how many uh teams calls you get, no matter how many phone calls you get, no matter how many times you visit them, there’s nothing as powerful as just sitting in their presence and engaging with them and connecting.

[00:41:47] So it has been challenging, uh, connecting with my team virtually, and that’s something that I’ve learned. I’ve done a whole lot of things to make sure that I just stay connected to them through other, other channels. Um, but what I’ve been deliberate about is connecting them with each other, you know, as much as the leader’s not there.

[00:42:10] I’ve been very deliberate and conscious that they sitting in South Africa, that they are connected with each other in a strong way. And you know, going back to my leadership style and how I empower people, it’s, I’ve had to first look at myself as a leader. You know, I talk about the journey of moving and taking this courageous moves and being fearful.

[00:42:31] I’ve also had to ask myself, why am I really moving? Am I moving because I’m running away from pain? Or am I moving because I am moving towards a purpose? Now that’s a big difference. ’cause I’ve heard a lot of South Africans run away from pain, run away from South Africa for whatever reasons. And yes, South Africa does have its challenges.

[00:43:00] Trust me, I go everywhere around the world and everywhere around the world’s got its challenges as well. Yeah. With its politically, economically, socially. Every country has it and, and so I’ve heard a lot of South Africans that moved away because of pain, and I can share very openly. I stay away from those South Africans.

[00:43:23] I stay away from those South Africans because I love my country. I love my green maba. And, um, I got family. I got friends there that don’t have a choice to leave the country. So I am not looking for news on how bad our politics are right now. I’m looking for good news about our, the G 20 happening in South Africa.

[00:43:45] Right now. I’m looking for good stories about amazing South Africans have done wonderful things around the world, like BJ and myself. So that’s what I’m looking for because it just gives me hope and makes me feel joyful of being a South African. So I stay away from the South African set of left because they’re running away from pain.

[00:44:06] And I looked at myself and said, why did I move? I moved, yes, I had a fantastic opportunity, uh, with Nandos, but I was destined for it. I was destined for it because it was me, a South African woman, a South African woman of color going into the global stage. And being, um, something to reckon with that other women that look like me, that will say, wow, this, she could do it.

[00:44:38] I could do it. And that for me was my purpose. My purpose was saying, how could I go there? How could I be in the uk? How could I hold my, my flag up high? And how could I be a beacon for lots of people, especially women, to give them hope and say, uh, I could do it. Um, she could do it. I could do it. And.

[00:45:06] Whether it is 10 years, 20 years, um, I could do it. So, so when I, so for me that reasoning leaving South Africa, um, was important because all that contributed to how I empower my people. As soon as you got a leader that’s self-aware, a leader that’s conscious, a leader that wants to do all the right things, they automatically know how to bring out the best in their people.

[00:45:33] So, you know, I’ve, I’ve always given my team courage, you know, uh, be being in South Africa, dealing with some of the things that we’ve had to deal with in South Africa, then also doing a global job. It, it has been tough. You know, I, I can’t sugarcoat this. We take product to 17 countries around the world, and we had challenges with our ports.

[00:45:56] We’ve had massive challenges that aren’t with our ports. But what do we do at South Africans? We gotta plan A, we got plan B, we gotta plan C. We are planning in advance. We got, um, contingency planning, whether we ship the product, whether we air freight the product, but we do it. We just, we just, we just do it.

[00:46:17] So, so yeah, that’s me. Yeah.

[00:46:20] Flip: Awesome. Yeah, I love that, Linda. That’s so true about South Africa. So we make a plan where wherever we can, and not only one, there’s, there’s two, three and contingency and what next, and even plans for the other people as well.

[00:46:34] Speaker 5: Yeah.

[00:46:35] Flip: Bj, you know, coming full circle, you, you left South Africa for Ireland, uh, moved a little bit about Europe, went back to South Africa, back to Ireland.

[00:46:44] What is it in, in, in both cultures, uh, that you know, that you want to install, uh, within your children and you hope that they carry forward, um, with your legacy plugged in there? Of course.

[00:46:55] BJ: Yeah, it’s, it’s a good question. I think, you know, what we share, and I suppose if you even look at today’s world in Ireland, I think we share kind of very similarities around everything.

[00:47:03] Our culture, you know, we love our food, we love our, you know, uh, they love their Guinness. We love their Guinness as well. Uh, we love and, uh, they love our, they love our beers castle and all the rest of them. And, uh, I think we share that alike. We love sport, you know, culturally, I think, uh, they’re quite similar.

[00:47:21] I think there’s definitely no similarity between the climate at all, but, uh, that’s, that’s, that’s the, that’s the only one. Um, but the rest we share, you know, so much. Really. I think it’s kind of, even when I put in rugby terms, how we see our passionate, these supporters are here in Ireland, you know, when they do go and watch their, their, their, their teams.

[00:47:41] And when there’s international game, I think, you know, parts of the whole standing can sit together. Even though we’re going at each other, we are very competitive as we know. So the Irish, but. I suppose that’s what gives us this kind of similarity. And I think they also come from, you know, the more time I’ve spent here, I think the one thing about the Irish is that quite similar to where we are.

[00:48:01] And I suppose that’s why they’re doing so well on the big stage is such a small nation rugby wise anyway. Mm-hmm. That they’ve got this resilience, this kind of real background of when the thing, when times were tough year in Ireland, you know, the famine and the war that happened and, you know, this is built within them, you know, and they can find a way if need be.

[00:48:19] You know, I think, um, that part obviously, I hope that they, you know, as they, as they have anyway, ’cause they’re obviously at school year, but I think, uh, you know, they’ve, as, as my oldest has just been a South African recently on her own, on a, on a trip, you know, she, she, she, when people ask her where she’s from, the first thing she says is South African.

[00:48:38] I say, no, you’re not South African. You’re born in Ireland. But yeah. You know, and I think that’s what they. That’s what, if they want to go, that’s fine, but I think Island will always, where we go in the world, they have a special place Bornia. And I think the, the Emal Emerald, as they say, it’s, you know, on a, on a, on a clear summers day, which is not many, but you, you can see to the shores of, you know, the kind of east coast of America and I mean, the clear days Yeah.

[00:49:05] Are incredible. I mean, it’s just picture risk with the greenery. It’s just magical, you know? And I mean, it’s really something to behold. And I’ve seen many of them, thankfully because being here so many years. But, you know, as much as that, it’s, it’s the same as Linda. I think there’s this kind of attachment to South Africa that you still, you know, we’ve been home showed our kids are old school and there’s attachment around that part of, of South African life that people just don’t understand.

[00:49:28] It’s living there, it’s experiencing it, it’s within the, you know, the highs and the lows and all that stuff. So, so I think they can, they can definitely, um, you know, they, I’m sure they have one foot in each country, you know, it’s up to them where they wanna kind of, uh. Plow their trade and kind of live.

[00:49:42] And I suppose that’s the, that’s the, the world at the moment. I think it’s become so small, you know, that people, they can live and, you know, proudly Irish citizens as they are. Um, but, and South African. But I suppose in one sense, I still feel, and thankfully that we are still, you know, very much about it’s, uh, you know, when the push comes to shove, you know, uh, we, we South African supporters, you know, obviously the family supports in Africa.

[00:50:07] If Ireland’s playing another country, then Ireland is definitely, uh, but it’s, it’s the sports code that I’m sometimes worried of my younger children, you know, bringing in a round ball rather than a rugby ball and, you know, these things that happen. So I’ve still got some work to do there, but, uh, yeah, um, yeah, look, it’s, it’s great for me.

[00:50:24] The one thing I look back on, my daughter’s probably been, my oldest daughter’s been at, I think obviously our time in France. So she’s been at school in France, in, in Ireland, in South Africa, back to Ireland, back to Africa. You know, I started people, and I mean, even some of my family would say, listen. Can you just settle Now?

[00:50:42] I tell you, I can tell you right now if I could travel like my daughter has, I would, I would, I would do that tomorrow. I said my daughter traveled and, and she’s experienced social en environments now that no one, not many at her age have, what that gives her for life for me is something that, you know, you can’t take away from her she’ll, not to social environment where she’s been to all these different schools and different, you know, languages to learn a whole new language in France and et cetera, et cetera.

[00:51:10] So, you know, I think that’s really part of them and, you know, thankful that they can do that. And I think that’s will hopefully put them in a, you know, in, in, in, in a place, you know, um, going forward in their lives. So, yeah, I would say they are definitely hybrids in the sense of the Irish and South African, which I’m thankful for, you know.

[00:51:28] Justinus: That’s so powerful, bj. I mean, I’ve seen my own kids. My son is completely fluent in French. Um, learned it in school in Canada and, and it’s amazing. But I, I also feel like especially for him, he really, he’s attached to rugby even though he hasn’t played it really himself and the spring books in such a way.

[00:51:47] ’cause it ties his identity. I mean, it obviously is a strong part of my own identity and he’s completely adopted that out of his own choice. But that silent signals, and I think Linda, I mean. Flip nose. I am definitely a crier. I literally, I almost cried when you gave that previous answer about running towards something instead of running away from something.

[00:52:11] And I think there’s a, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of difference in in those two. But I also really liked what you said about these quiet signals, this permission that you gave by setting the example. And I think for me, I like to travel like this with my Spring book jersey, wherever I go, and it just also sends this quiet signal that gives people permission to come and talk to me.

[00:52:34] Yeah. And you have these amazing conversations. So I want to just go to that sort of full circle. You’ve done quite a Linda doing it. Quite a few things to sort of raise awareness, climb Kilimanjaro and a few other things. And, and you feel very involved in this idea of empowering women and giving them permission to, to reach for, for, for higher peaks, uh, no pun intended.

[00:52:57] Tell us a little bit about some of that work you’ve done and, and how, how it becomes a fulfilling thing for you as well. Yeah.

[00:53:05] Linda: Yeah. So, you know, COVID was spectacular for me in so many ways. You know, as much as we were, um, stuck in our homes and we had so many restrictions, I think South Africa had really tough restrictions.

[00:53:17] Uh, sometimes a bit just too tough. But what it allowed me to do is it allowed me to reflect. And I was just so thankful of the time that thankfully, no, no, nothing happened to any one of my close members in the family. And I think being stuck for so long, um, it felt like a, a caged bird, okay. That when the restrictions were over or coming, like loosened up a bit, it was like, oh my word.

[00:53:41] What can I do? What something can adventurous can I do? I just wanna, and go do some something big, hairy and audacious. And that big, hairy and audacious was something I’ve, I’ve wanted to do for a while. And that’s to get to the top of Africa. Um, climb Kilimanjaro, trained for it. But I partnered with the Nelson Mandela Foundation and uh, I did it for girls in the townships that do not have access to Sanitary Way.

[00:54:08] Now. It’s something so simple. Um, and you know, you both, you guys, uh, Justine is, and, and bj, you got daughters, right? Flip I, I dunno if you’ve got daughters, but you know, it’s, um, you know, getting that menstrual cycle every month. It’s just your, it’s just the body and it’s just the body doing. Its, its wonderful things.

[00:54:30] But here you’ve got girls in the township in South Africa that cannot go to school for a week a month. Because they do not have access to sanitary wear. So that was very powerful for me. And that then said, you know, coming from the background that I come from being where I am, which is five years ago, how can I give back?

[00:54:50] So that led me up to Kilimanjaro, that led me to raise a lot of money through very generous South African business people, majority of men, uh, which I’m very thankful for, um, that that contributed to 4,200 girls to have access to sanity where for a year so they could finish their metric. And that was just powerful.

[00:55:13] I visited nine schools, you know, you go to them, you give them the sanity where they laugh, they dance, they’re so excited for this impact. And what I told them is I said, I’ve climbed the tallest mountain in Africa just for you, just to do this for you. And then that led me to further adventures. Um, last year I went to, uh, the Andes Mountains, uh, hikes, uh, the Sal Country Trail, which is quite tough.

[00:55:40] The Sal Country Trail goes up to 4,200 meters in the Andes Mountains. Absolutely beautiful to see this mountain range down in South America in Peru. Hiked there seven days. Ended, um, at the beginning of the Amazon Cloud Forest. And then from there I went over to Machu Picchu on my last day. Absolutely Specac spectacular.

[00:56:03] You know, um, from the tough night and day that I went up to Kilimanjaro where I, I asked myself many times, what am I doing up this mountain? God, what am I doing here? Like, I felt I was. Parts of me was just completely gone. I was completely numb getting into Machu Picchu, which was just admiring the beauty of this town and this village that the Inca people built on the top of a mountain.

[00:56:34] How they took all that stone up the top of that mountain, I have no idea, but absolutely magnificent. You stand there in this, in this village they built that was hidden from the Spanish. Um, and you look there and it just says, wow, I’m just surrounded by mountains, uh, and a beautiful sacred place. And I did that for gender-based violence.

[00:56:59] I did that because South Africa has got a massive issue where, um, you know, there’s a high number of women, and I’m talking about women from the townships all the way to Santon. Um, that, uh, that sadly goes through gender-based violence. So I partnered with a foundation at the time to raise money for, for women, and it was 3,500 women that, uh, we, we impacted yet again, very generous South African business people, mainly men that contributed so generously towards this.

[00:57:37] And in this year, um, a very big year for me, um, a milestone year for me is, um, I, uh, I celebrated my birthday and guys, women don’t say our age, but it was the big five zero Big five zero. Um, I, something very special that I did. Um, uh, I went up to mount, uh, Mount Fuji in Japan. My first time in Japan. And, uh, I did that to raise money for children in South Africa that don’t know how to read.

[00:58:17] There is thousands of children in the township that just don’t know, don’t know how to read, don’t have access to reading at an early age. So this organization, uh, help to read where the founders of that, or the, um, uh, the, the, the founders of that, that charity are British, uh, founders that I met them, uh, beginning of this year.

[00:58:41] And I just loved what they do for South Africa as a family to make a difference. Um, yeah. And that, uh, impacted thousands of children to be able to, to read

[00:58:52] Flip: you really. That’s amazing. Linda, thank you for sharing. As we come to the end, uh, we have a little tradition on on Winning The Away Game podcast. We, we let our guests ask each other a question.

[00:59:02] Ladies first.

[00:59:06] Linda: So bj, um, I love it that you got a big family. I was wondering, is he gonna get to making a rugby team at some point? Is he moving in that direction? Um, I think for me, a question is, and I read your story, I read the story about Owen, and I think you guys as a couple, I admire what you’ve, what you’ve gone through with Owen.

[00:59:27] Um, just a question for, for everyone in the room is, um, what is like one thing that as your children have taught you and Tanya Yeah. What you and Tanya, what, what have they, yeah. What have they taught you? Yeah,

[00:59:46] BJ: that’s a, that’s a tough one, eh? Uh,

[00:59:48] Linda: I think,

[00:59:50] BJ: yeah, they’ve, they’ve definitely, you know, in one sense, you know, taught us, you know, love that, that unconditional love, I suppose, that you don’t really know exist between, you know, you have your kind of, you know, your, your, your partner and your, your kind of, you know, your wife or your husband.

[01:00:07] But I think when, when you have, I suppose, the children, then they come along in that unconditional love and that side of things, which is obviously, you know, um. In one sense, uh, you know, quite general. But I think in our aspects, we’ve had some dynamics in our family that have really been tested, I suppose, especially having a, um, can I say a long-term, uh, sick child, like own

[01:00:34] Speaker 5: mm-hmm.

[01:00:35] BJ: You know, and the dynamics or tested, you know, and it shows, the one thing that comes naturally to, I suppose, or should be anyway, is that children teach you how things should come naturally. And it’s a caring about this aspect of, of, of, without any boundaries, you know, and that side of things. That’s what Maal n shown, you know, uh, own will be like this.

[01:00:57] Hopefully not, we might, might find something down the line, but I think, you know, as, as this pro, as this transition is, well as this, you know, moves forward. It’s, it’s these new things come along, you know, where the kids show what they are and how everything just comes from the heart really. You know, in one sense, the, of course, they’re their siblings, but, um, you know, I think, I think we, we kind of, I have imagined massive, uh, uh, you know, thing about how that’s just organically grown.

[01:01:25] It’s nothing from us, you know, they’ve just shown how, how that caring and that environment is, has been created around o, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, suppose being, being very, being very aware that it’s not only about o you know, I always say that about listen. Mm-hmm. No, I know. Growing up with friends that I have that have had a sick child with them, and I think.

[01:01:45] Very cautious going into details now. We’re probably not. But, uh, aware of that side of things where the, you know, everyone is, is, is as important to the, to the family circle, you know? Yeah. And very important to, to, to, to kind of, well does, it doesn’t come naturally at times to realize that and to push forward.

[01:02:01] Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Thanks for a great question, Linda. I won’t lie to you. I don’t know what, thank you. Stop your list with, um. Other than ya. I think it’s, it’s a simple question. We actually, you know, talking about, we didn’t have much time, maybe talk about the Nando side of things, but I will tell you that obviously as we know, Nandos is just, uh, you know, you’re South African away from South Africa, isn’t it?

[01:02:22] Yeah. It’s like, you know, when I was playing for months there, we actually tell you a story. We stopped at the, at the, at the Nandos in Cork,

[01:02:34] uh, a couple of those Africans. And this was our taste, you know, but

[01:02:38] Speaker 5: yes.

[01:02:38] BJ: Uh, one to, it’s a, it’s a, it’s, it’s, I suppose you, you know, maybe just a simple enough question in, in the sense of Nandos, the menu as, as such, uh, why do some, why do some, uh, some of the ingredients or some of the kind of what’s on the menu, not in.

[01:02:57] Not in South Africa. It kind of happened in Europe and vice versa. I remember us stopping over at, uh, at this one in Cork and we are like having the hummus and the, and the kind of, uh, pizza bread, you know, with the chili oil. And I don’t think you get that in South Africa. You know, it’s kind of, is that just valued on the customer?

[01:03:16] I won’t, maybe it’s a particular question, but I thought I’d just ask you.

[01:03:20] Linda: Yeah, no, I’ll actually answered that. You know, the one thing I do love about EZ is that we are not cookie cuts in every country you got, you know, you, you got, you got your per per chicken on the bone, it’s there, you got your delicious burgers and pets and, and all the other delicious products that core.

[01:03:37] Then you’ve got what is for the local country and what the local country people enjoy. Okay. You know, you’ve, you’ve got your nuances in South Africa that you wouldn’t find in the UK or Ireland or the US or Australia. And then you’ve got certain things in Dubai that you’ll have, like this amazing espada that comes in this beautiful stand, uh, that you, you wouldn’t find elsewhere.

[01:04:00] So we’ve got about 20% of the menu that’s specifically designed for the customer in that country.

[01:04:07] BJ: Interesting. Well, that’s great. No, that answers my question. So it wasn’t, it wasn’t more business luck.

[01:04:13] Linda: Yeah, it’s fine.

[01:04:15] BJ: But it’s fun. It does answer along way to the question that we always were thinking stopping at this Nandos or wherever we are.

[01:04:21] Why don’t they serve this trigger role with this whatever, or you know, yeah. Things. But anyway.

[01:04:27] Justinus: Well, I would say that one of my favorite little nuances of Nandos was in Singapore. When I was there for a week, I managed to visit all six Nandos in Singapore and Wow. Drove across the border to go to one of Malaysia.

[01:04:42] But in Singapore, on the burgers, I have this grilled cheese, which is the most amazing thing I’ve think I’ve ever tasted. It is fantastic.

[01:04:51] Linda: You’re such a fan. Justine is such a fan. All six in Singapore. Amazing.

[01:04:56] Justinus: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you very much guys. Really appreciate your time and thanks for sharing with us.

[01:05:02] It’s just so amazing to hear South African stories from, from abroad. So thank you very much for being here, um, and, and being on the Winning The Away Game podcast.

[01:05:12] Flip: Thank you Linda and bj, it’s great to see you Bja. I’ll see you this weekend and hopefully the book going.

[01:05:19] BJ: Yes. A pleasure guys. A pleasure, Linda.

[01:05:21] Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you guys. Well done.

[01:05:25] Linda: Nice meeting you guys. Yeah.