Episode 6: How To Reinvent Yourself

[00:00:00] Tim: Nah. My church is called though, every Sunday. It’s exactly the same thing.

[00:00:14] Yeah. We, we, we, we pray for miracles. You’re right. Yeah. We pray for it. Very good. Are you allowed to cry midway?

[00:01:11] Justinus: Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is just like Flip said, we really want to have a deep and private conversation that we can serve to a broader audience. You guys have great stories and lots of overlap, so we’ll try and, um, extract that as we go. But I wanna just, uh, obviously encourage you to try and be as vulnerable, uh, as you feel comfortable.

[00:01:31] ’cause I think that’s what people like to see and, and gives us the opportunity to really connect on a human level.

[00:01:39] Guthro: Sounds good.

[00:01:54] Justinus: Thanks Jonathan.

[00:02:02] Okay, good morning and welcome to Winning the Away Game podcast. We flip Vva and I try and expose and have honest conversations with South African expats abroad and some legendary rugby players. Today we have some special guests for you, and I’m as usually very excited. Flip. How are you feeling today?

[00:02:26] Tim: Justina’s, excellent. As you said, we have wonderful guests from all over the world. Um, a man bigger, bigger than his own personality, big personality, big guy, used to anchor the South African Scrum, uh, fellow Shimla, fellow cheetah fellow Blue Bulls of fellow Springbok, coach G himself. Amps joining us.

[00:02:49] Justinus: Yeah, wow.

[00:02:50] Welcome coach G.

[00:02:52] Guthro: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. Looking forward to this conversation. Flip. Good to see you looking young as always. Man, you, you, you’re definitely on my wall of inspiration, man, after that Iron Man. And you did so all done than that. Yeah.

[00:03:02] Tim: You, you are the original inspiration to keeping us accountable.

[00:03:06] Uh, we have to, we have to train the old body, don’t we?

[00:03:10] Guthro: Uh, for sure. For sure.

[00:03:12] Justinus: And joining us with Coach G is a, a amazing inspiration. Tim started in South Africa in Johannesburg with an amazing origin story, then went to Angola and conquered much of Africa before settling in Portugal. And at the rip old age, decided to take on reinvent himself and, and design and build the most amazing educational story, which we’ll hear all about today.

[00:03:40] So welcome, Tim. Very excited to have you and, and looking forward to learning from you.

[00:03:44] Tim: Yeah. Geez, I’m super excited. I like, I’ve got. Two spring box. Yeah. Like, you know, one that would’ve, I would’ve been right next to him there as a known hooker that I was not, not not. And then, you know, one pushing from behind.

[00:03:59] Imagine what I could have achieved. Incredible stuff, eh.

[00:04:05] Justinus: Awesome. So we always like to start with asking the same question, and this first question is really just understanding your favorite spring book memory. Um, so looking back over the last 30, 40 years and everything that’s happened in Spring Book Rugby, when you look back over that time, what do you see as, as the most fondest memory that you can look back on?

[00:04:33] Tim: Yeah. Well for me it’s gotta be nine, five, eh, because it really was a game changer. You know, I remember watching the game and then after it, just getting in the car and just driving to the park. Not knowing why, you know, and then getting stuck there and, and just loving it. And, you know, the hope that came from that, the, the colors on the road.

[00:04:53] Everybody was happy. There was real hope, you know, and then the images we saw and, um, just believing that there, there was this miracle, you know, that we, we beat Joe Loma. We, we, we won it, you know, and, uh, was just amazing. So that one definitely, definitely it’s like, it, it, you know, it sticks out right, right away.

[00:05:12] ’cause we’ve been isolated for so long, so we needed to get back in and, and, you know, and we got in, in the best way possible. It was just amazing, you know, so, yeah. Uh, that’s my memory there.

[00:05:24] Justinus: How old were you at the time?

[00:05:26] Tim: So I was about 18, you know, um, and, uh, yeah, you know, if, if I played for the box, maybe it would’ve been running on for them, but, you know, I’ll leave that to the other guys, you know?

[00:05:35] So for me that was, you know, me as a springbok, it was, that was me. I’ve got the. The, the, the jersey I was actually gonna do it with the jersey behind me and all that. But, uh, I got held up, didn’t make it back to the office, but, um, you know, it was just special. This is, I watched it with my parents, I watched it with my best friend.

[00:05:54] Um, and yeah, just amazing, 18 years old. But, um, I drank like a proper 27-year-old did not

[00:06:07] Guthro: Gotcha.

[00:06:09] Well, uh, there’s so many. I think, uh, you know, as a youngster, definitely, uh, 95 is definitely up there. That was the time I realized that actually I wanted to become a spring book. That’s, uh, when I decided that this is what I want, even though I was in a household, uh, full with the all black supporters back then due to, um, you know, what happened in the past in South Africa and what my parents went through.

[00:06:31] And, uh, that is something that I, that, that I wanted to. To chase and, um, you know, that, that was a pivotal moment seeing, uh, Mandela there with, uh, you know, with Francho Pinine, with the being the number six jersey that was iconic. But as a player, I think one of my favorite moments is probably winning the All Blacks against in Dunedin, in the House of Payne.

[00:06:54] Nobody thought we would, uh, win that one. And, uh, you know, it was just exceptional at the end of the day with the trial with Ricky January, and I still remember blood running down my face and the biggest, biggest smile ever. But there’s, there’s so many, it’s difficult to, to, to, to pinpoint that. I can talk about recent ones as well, but, um, I, I, I think at the end of the day, it, it’s what the SPRINGBOX stands for and what it represents and the energy it gives us, the freaking goosebumps it gives us.

[00:07:23] And even today as a former player watching the box players just, it’s unbelievable.

[00:07:29] Justinus: Awesome. That’s such amazing. Okay.

[00:07:31] Tim: Yeah. Um. Brilliant memories, Gare, and, and, and you yourself made some, made some brilliant of memories. Um, uh, take us through, so you’re born in Paul, grew up, grew up in Cape Town, um, you know, and, and went through Titas.

[00:07:48] When we first saw this man mountain, I was, I was a young student and I looked, I thought, yes, like I don’t wanna play against that guy. Um. Where did it, where did it start for gto? Where, where did you, where did, where did you start believing, uh, you know, rugby is the thing that, that you, you excelled at and what you can do

[00:08:05] Guthro: now?

[00:08:06] Obviously, you know, I grew up in Paul and I’m, um, I’m very privileged. I had a great community, amazing people that helped me in, uh, where I lived and, you know, obviously was in a great school as well. I was in, uh, Paul Bo Eye and IU and Grave. We had great rivalries over the years and that, that band is still continues between the Paul Gym, the Great College boys and the boys Eye boys in the Springbok team.

[00:08:27] But, uh, I, I do believe it’s the age of 16. You know, obviously when I was younger, I was bigger than the other guys and I would break down walls and put in big hits. You know, when you’re bigger than everyone else, it’s easier. But when everyone else thought to grow a bit and kind of size up as well. I think it was at the age of 16 where I realized, okay, I can actually do this.

[00:08:45] And, and, and it was something that I was, when, that was when the, the dream turned into a. Where I wanted it really bad. And I remember my dad back then, he asked me, are you serious about this isn’t just the thing you wanna do and chase, oh, how serious are you? I’m like, I’m fully in. He says, well, if you’re fully in, you better get up every morning and you gotta go run.

[00:09:06] And I would get up before school, I would run a three KI and I, I didn’t complain about it. It was tough sometimes doing it, but that’s what I did After training. He would come pick me up from rugby training and I had to run back home and, you know, accelerate forward. I mean, I don’t want to take up too much time in terms of the whole biography and stuff because that’s not the point of this podcast.

[00:09:24] But you know, we all face challenges. And I think I realized that I have something and I needed to find the right environment. And that’s how I ended up in Blum Fonte. And, and if we have to go back person of color going to Blum Fonte, what the hell are you thinking? And on top of that, I ended up in Afrikaans hostel.

[00:09:46] In Africans hostel. That, and, and that, and I won’t lie to you, that was hard. That was tough. But because I was fully committed on what I wanted to achieve and because of the lack of opportunities my family’s had in the past, my grandparents, my parents, I felt I had that responsibility to give it my batch, a best shot, whether I make it or not.

[00:10:06] And, and that stuck with me that, that, that work ethic and, you know, really chasing that vision, not a dream. And I always explain this, we all can have dreams, but you gotta take action. And it started back then as well with the shameless whether, and, um, just my condolences as well to the family of the legendary t Buda was a mentor to all of us.

[00:10:28] Played a massive role in our lives. And, you know, the, the Ches and the Shiers, that’s what I was taught, what it means to be mentally tough. Because coming from Paul, just outside of Cape Town. I wasn’t used to playing the winter on those hard fields, those yellow fields. I’m like, my knees on earth, give me some Vaseline and it toughen up.

[00:10:52] Maintain, maintain. But yeah, obviously as a youngster, you know, um, played with the cheetahs, had some amazing players there. You know, guys like Kennedy Timba, you know, fortunate enough towards the end of their careers, played with guys like Rui and Andre Fenton, Roski, and you know, and you know, there was some amazing players, Andrew Sko as well, you know, with some great people come in.

[00:11:14] I, I think. If I look back at it, even though I’m a bull through and through the things, the step, the foundation that was laid with the cheetahs, you know, that time when you basically have nothing, you, and, and you know, ful, he knows exactly what I’m talking about. You know, you don’t have all the fancy stuff.

[00:11:31] What other unions had, you know, we lived for our, um, prize at Captain Practice. We lived for our free breakfast at the House of Coffees back then with my mates, those s breakfast and stuff like that. But what got me through that time was, was pure drive. I, I knew that I needed to go above and beyond and, you know, the cheetahs that was part in Posh, and maybe that’s a fault on my side because I don’t give them enough credit.

[00:11:58] You know, when I’m in the space, whether it’s on, on podcasts, you know, there, there, I’ve learned to, to deal with a lot of things and, and, and the team we had back then, it was in 2004 when we played in that, um, fi, that final. We didn’t have big names, we had great people, we had great players and people didn’t give us a chance.

[00:12:18] And I still think we won. Lucky to have lost in that final in 2004. But that’s where I learned you don’t always need to have the greatest things in life or the best players. But if you got a team, a team that are mates, team that believe in the same vision, that have the same drive and share similar purpose, anything is possible and accelerating that, going to the bulls, you know, that was a tough time.

[00:12:42] And, and, and people see all the accolades and people see all the success and the trophies and stuff, but there was a time I actually considered leaving the bulls because I didn’t feel a part of the team because I was, was injured at that stage. IK may felt that I wasn’t good enough to play for the spring box.

[00:12:59] I wasn’t even making the super rugby team. I was playing in a vodacom capite. So then you start to have all these questions of self doubt and, and then it comes back to one, why am I here? What am I trying to achieve? Who am I doing this for? And, and that drive it, it just kept it, that kept that fire going.

[00:13:15] It kept that fire going and, uh, you know, accelerated to the bulls. You know, we, um, then I managed, I finally found a family, a rugby family. I managed to start playing and that’s where I learned probably one of the most valuable lessons of life. You gotta earn respect. You can’t demand it, you gotta earn it.

[00:13:33] And that’s how the Bulls family worked. You have to show what you are all about, that you are there to pitch up for your brothers, that you are there to, uh, pitch up for your team and, and told today, the Bulls is still one of my favorite teams. You know, it still stays close to my heart, but I’m just gonna put it out there.

[00:13:52] Bring the balls back, bring back those players as coaches. All right, we are ready to go. We’re ready to transform. We are ready to bring back the Bull’s dynasty. But, uh, yeah, it was an unbelievable journey. I don’t really like to talk about, you know, um, how can I say everything that I’ve achieved? I’ve been blessed with everything I’ve achieved, but it, it comes down to having a clear vision.

[00:14:13] It comes down to hard work and, and also it comes down about who you’re doing it for, which is very important. And, and still today, part and partial of my vision and my drive is, is inspiring. Um, everyday people, people that have next to nothing, that anything is possible. You know, it’s easy for us that’s sitting here.

[00:14:34] We’re sitting in front of a computer. We are on this podcast. We have all this fancy equipment. There are, there’s people out there with nothing. And that if you do have a vision and if you manage to find yourself with the right people, the right team around you, you know, anything is possible.

[00:14:48] Justinus: Wow. Thanks God.

[00:14:51] Tim, you grew up in job book with. Portuguese and Mozambique and parents, and, um, and was a fascinating journey. Started with entrepreneurship very early on in life and had some challenges and successes. Tell us more about the origin story.

[00:15:09] Tim: Yeah, so I was also, you know, uh, being a poorer, you are also one of the second class guys, you know what I’m saying?

[00:15:17] So I understand Coach g, what you’re talking about, you know, because also I couldn’t go

[00:15:21] to the back of the bus. I would get blitzed, uh, by, by the oaks from the Africon school.

[00:15:26] They got on first, you know, and, uh, so as Porter as we knew our place. But, um, it was an amazing family. You know, we, we came in as immigrants.

[00:15:35] Uh, South Africa gave us opportunities. We worked hard. The Portuguese, the Italians, the Greeks, the, the Lebanese, you know, they, they got in there. They, they took risks, they worked hard. They put the whole family working. I started working young. You know, um, I do want to say, you know, you’re being very kind saying I was from, but I was actually from the end and the end is our hot urg, I promise you so, yeah.

[00:16:00] Uh, you know, and also I must say that I did go to a school that, uh, was actually quite amazing because we don’t have a losing record against either Paul Boys or, I mean Paul Gymnasium or Gray. We’ve never ever lost to you guys. So, you know, ’cause we’ve never played you so we never lost, you know, so totally undefeated.

[00:16:21] So I must say that was amazing. And I must say that I played rugby in high school and my dad didn’t allow me. So I used to fraud his signatures because he was Portuguese. He wanted me to play for primrose spurs football. And, um, I was like, not, not, not that great to play. I was very good at staying on my feet, but then, you know, missed the goals in the end.

[00:16:41] But, um, I started playing rugby for the school. And, um, I, I loved it. Um, and, uh, I played, uh, 15 and then I really in matric at end of STA nine, I started playing first team and I made it into number eight. Uh, and that was the best ever in this amazing season. I, I just didn’t score in one game, so I was like, Taman was my number eight.

[00:17:05] But I played like Bobby, you know, I would go for glory and score trials and um, I actually won the Bradley Becker Memorial Award, which was the biggest award at our school. So for a poorer, that was amazing. And, uh, because I was scoring trials. One day my dad found out I was playing rugby. ’cause they went to his cafe and they told him, Hey, your son just scored this amazing try, you know, and my dad says, but he doesn’t play rugby.

[00:17:29] And then, you know, you find out, uh, so I got, uh, I got scrubbed in the house that day and molded and rocked and everything. And then he went to go see our very first game, and the game was abandoned in the 19th minute for a big fight that blew up between the two schools. And, uh, and he came and he left and he said, you know, it was, and, and, um, you know, the next day, six of the best, if we wanted to stay in the first team or otherwise, you’d get dropped.

[00:17:56] So, and if one guy said yes, six of the best, we all had to go for it. So obviously we, we had our captains standing up for all of us and choosing, so we all went for it. But yeah, that was it. You know, east Strand, uh, being a poorer, um, you know, playing rugby, uh, and then becoming totally South African. Like he, he, I became totally South African, you know, my friends, the way, you know, I was into cricket, into tennis, into everything.

[00:18:22] Um, but, you know, I just, I just missed the talent to make it further. But it was great. You know what I’m saying? I could’ve said it was an injury, but it wasn’t. It was just talent.

[00:18:36] Justinus: And then at 18 you started your first business or a business, maybe you started business before that, uh, a microbrewery. Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:18:45] Tim: Yeah, like, you know, gastro said already, you gotta do what you got passion for and I passion for beer. So I thought, you know, laughs too short to drink bad beer.

[00:18:53] So I thought, you know, SAB at that time, uh, was a monopoly. It was like 99.9 9, 9 9 9%. Everything was lion or castle. So I started brewing my own beer and it was called Machu Picchu and Saf Fire Tongues. So, you know, I went into the market that didn’t have a beer with their brand, so it’s a fire time, which was, you know, Soweto, but uh, uh, are called in a bit of the tradition and the heritage and the music and all that.

[00:19:17] So it became super popular. And um, and then Machu Picchu, which actually had ads running on Radio five at that time in the morning. And it had the very first ad was like this. You know, screaming in this forest, like in this jungle. And then it said you just witnessed the birth of Machu, you know, it was like a woman giving birth.

[00:19:39] And then the next advert was the sky peeing just for like 45 seconds. And it said, naturally spirited, you can drink so much more. So, you know, I could only afford one ad a day. So they ad had to be remembered so the radio station would play it again because people would ask to play the game. So, um, the other ad I didn’t have much budget, so it was a quick one.

[00:19:59] It was just a dog got kicked and then it said, ma your picture, we don’t hurt animals, but no one knew what the hell happened, you know, so it was like all like weird. But, um, I got on the radar, I sold a lot of beer. And then, um, obviously SAB at that time, um, was quite conservative and, uh, they went to everywhere that I was selling beer and they gave beer for free and fridges for free, and shirts for free, and umbrellas for free.

[00:20:25] So I, it was, it was a great experience, you know, like for about five years. Uh, it was the best, you know, I was loved ’cause I produced beer. Everybody loves you. If you’re a springbok or you produce beer, those are the two things you need to do, you know? So, um, uh, I, I drank a lot ’cause you have to test it, so it was good.

[00:20:43] Uh, and then, you know, when it, it didn’t go bankrupt, but, you know, I, I couldn’t sell my beer. And, uh, and uh, in the end it actually got, um, I actually sold it out to a group in Pardon Island that now actually brewed the black, uh, Jack Black. Uh, you know, so the brewery kept going and it was, I was, I was probably a little bit ahead of my time ’cause a little bit later then we, you know, we went in, uh, SA opened up and then everybody wanted foreign beer and micro breweries and all that.

[00:21:13] So sometimes, you know, you’re ahead of your time, you know, and, uh, and that can be, uh, failure. So you shouldn’t be too hard on yourself. But the experiences and everything I, I learned from a very early age was amazing. You know, that you’ve got to keep your name clean. The day I stopped Bri beer, I had so many offers or people wanted to do business with me, like open up and give me funding to do something.

[00:21:34] And then that’s when I decided now I’m actually gonna go to Angola. Uh, you know, I thought I wanted, um, it was when the rand was also collapsing. Um, so I thought, you know, I didn’t want another SAB crushing me. So I thought, I’ll go to Angola. It sounds a lot easier, you know, I went to Angola and it, it really was an opportunity, you know, I had my two boys there.

[00:21:55] Um, I just had so much time with my wife. We got to travel and, and, um, I, I got to really make an impact in Angola, you know, ’cause it needed everything. So, um, I was able to be an entrepreneur there and, uh, and I’m, you know, again, as Coach G said, there, you, you’re blessed. You know, when, when you actually, you go after what you want, you gotta act, you gotta do it.

[00:22:19] And then, you know, you, you’ll start, get the blessing, start coming in. You can’t just. Expect blessings, but do nothing. You know, it’s, uh, I often say it’s, you know, there was this guy who wanted to win the lottery and he kept praying to, to God, you know, and I need to win the lottery. If I win the lottery, I’ll do so much good.

[00:22:35] I’ll do so much good. And then, you know, he, he, he prays again to God. He said, you see that guy won the lottery and he not doing any good with the money, he’s spending it. And I would do good. And then after about 15 years, you know, God got a little bit tired of this prayer and he says, you know, George, you need to buy a ticket.

[00:22:55] And that’s the thing. You have to also do your part, you know? Yeah. And many people wait for the everything to be perfect or, or they don’t want to take the risk and all that. You learn nothing from doing, uh, waiting for perfect times and for doing nothing. You know, obviously sometimes your scrum will collapse and you’ll go, you’ll get pushed backwards.

[00:23:11] But that should be what drives you to come back up and. And fight for it again, and, um, and show, you know, what you, what you are all about. So, yeah. Yeah, it’s, uh, that’s, that was my life sort of in that

[00:23:23] period. That’s, that’s excellent. Some so, so, so many life lessons and, and just five minutes in. Um, it, it’s so good.

[00:23:34] And, and, you know, knowing, knowing Guthrow, um, I think it’s gonna be good themes of reinvention, um, that’s gonna happen all through, all through today, all through the show. Um, when Guthrow spoke, now I, the specific memory of him, um, end of 2009, 2010, and we had this fitness trainer, Basel Gus at, uh, at the bull zone.

[00:24:00] And gato, me and gato, you know, in the front, uh, or the, the forwards. We’ve got this little bit of a sickness. And so as soon as we stop running, we, we, we swell, you know, for, for no particular reason. Inflammation. Inflammation. Um, uh, and, and, and after one particular, I can’t remember specifically if it was 2009 to 2010, I think that was the one.

[00:24:26] Um. When Gare went on this year, only eight green shakes for breakfast or like spinach and li liver cleanse. And I dunno when he, he rocked up at four or five in the morning to try and, um, and if you get this impression of an angry bear, you know, a bear with something in his pool was just like, and, and he is a, and Gare is, is is a very big human to be aggressive, you know, when he is aggressive around you, you know, everyone walked about 15 meters around him.

[00:24:57] You know, no one wanted to be a, uh, to be in his way. Um, uh, and, but, but that I, what I particularly remember is that commitment that he had. And we’re always, you know, always when I see him now, he is, you know, developing, uh, coach G. And when you did the training things on your Instagram and stuff as well is, is, and when you spoke about the, when you were young and running.

[00:25:19] Um, is that commitment you made over that, uh, two, 2009, 2010, because you ended up Player of the Year, South Africa Rugby Player of the year in 2010? Um, just through pure discipline, hard drive commitment. Uh, didn’t let anyone tell you what to do, what not to do, no risk taken. Um, you know, that’s. That’s, um, I, I, I, I envy people willing to take the risk and willing to go further.

[00:25:49] Um, and speaking of which, geez, so 2010, um, after that wonderful World Cup in Australia. Uh, New Zealand, sorry, you decided to, to pull your, pull up the pull up your, your, your wickets and, and go to France. Um, take us a little bit through that decision making. Why did you, why did you go to France?

[00:26:11] Guthro: Yeah, so, you know, firstly flip, uh, you know, it was always great.

[00:26:14] I always loved those training sessions. You, we always pushed each other and, uh, you know, you were a hard worker yourself and, uh, you know, so being South African and when you play in the front five, just driving past McDonald’s, you would just pick up two kilos without eating, you know, so, so, so that was a condition.

[00:26:28] It hasn’t been diagnosed it, but it was self-diagnosed by the front five. But yeah, going back, you know, before I talk about going to France, I think it’s about understanding, you know, you speak about discipline. I think it, no matter whether you’re an athlete or whether you’re an entrepreneur or you’re in a corporate space, I, if you are not driven by something which has a deeper meaning, it’s not sustainable.

[00:26:52] It’s not sustainable. And. You, you need to go even further back to me, dealing with the disappointment of not playing in the final, in 2007 in the World Cup. And, you know, the decisions were justified. I respected and I knew exactly why Jake made this decision and I was still grateful to be part of it, you know, still being part of a squad.

[00:27:12] And, and that took me a while to, to get over that. And then you go fast track where it was supposed to be. My so-called time, 2008. We won that game against the abs in Dunedin and then a game later got dropped. I got chased away like a dog from the hotel. Then Pretorian said I wasn’t gonna go to Cape Town.

[00:27:29] So it was a crazy thing for me. But it also comes down to having my Bulls family, you know, I’ll be honest with you, if I didn’t have my Bulls family, I probably wouldn’t have gotten through that. The support of my teammates, the support of the staff, you, you know, I knew no matter what went wrong and that one consistent thing in my life, and that was the Bulls.

[00:27:50] And, you know, that’s why, you know, in the future, I would love the players of today to experience what we had. And in order to do that, you need the right people. But 2009 flip, you know, you know, as well as the headlines in South Africa said, goth through, got Castro, played against Castro, Giovanni, I got smashed, I got dominated, I got humiliated.

[00:28:10] And I, I embarked on a two week journey where I literally had to go find myself. And, um, that meant visiting a few pubs in the uk, uh, visiting a few nightclubs in Paris, and, uh, literally finding myself and, and asking myself some tough questions. And 2009 was one of the biggest crossroads in my rugby big career, because that’s when everybody was judging me.

[00:28:31] Everybody was calling me to call it kutz and say that I’m done. And it wasn’t about proving people wrong, it was about proving myself, right, that I have the skillset, I have this God-given talent. I have what it takes to play and I need to reach my destiny. I need to fulfill it. And that’s what, that’s what drove me all this time, doing those crazy shakes and being angry.

[00:28:58] ’cause I was drinking Nutri Greens and the velocity diet of, of Basil and doing those 5:00 AM sessions in the, in the gym whenever all you guys were still sleeping. Because I knew what I wanted to achieve. But that couldn’t have been done alone. I had a team, I had guys like myself, I had Gary, I had Victor, I had Bucky’s, all those guys.

[00:29:16] They knew I what I wanted to do. You guys knew, even though I didn’t verbalize it, but you guys knew it. And then I was fortunate enough in 2010 to finally get back my spot in the Springbok team because I didn’t play the whole of 2009, even though I played the odd game in the British and Irish lions. But I lost my spot ’cause Tandi was on the scene and he was performing really well.

[00:29:38] He was doing really well. So with all due respect, he deserved it. And it was up to me to make a change. I wasn’t questioning selection, I was questioning myself. What do I need to do to push that needle, to move that back? What am I gonna do to achieve my goals because only myself can do it. No one else.

[00:29:57] And you know, when I got that opportunity to, uh, play again in 2010 and get awarded, play with the wear. But what you need to know is, well, when I played my first test match after more than a year in Cape Town on my birthday against France, the inspirational words of Peter the village was, please don’t go out there and embarrass yourself.

[00:30:18] You’ve had a last year you were shit, this year you were less shit. So don’t go out and embarrass yourself. Like just before we go about to go into the field. Like I’m like, what the hell, dude? Maybe it was his psychology, I don’t know. Maybe that’s just who he was, but accelerating forward, flip and uh, yeah, justice.

[00:30:38] I think that then, you know, after achieving what I achieved in 2010, I was a man on a mission. Um, you know, with the bulls we had back, we won the super rugby again. We won the, the carry cup in 2009, back to back with the super rugby. And then I asked myself, okay, you’ve won three super rugby, you won a cup, carry cup.

[00:30:58] What’s next? What’s next? And that’s when I realized that I wanna go to France, I wanna go play in the European Cup. Back then, I wanted to win a title in Europe. I wanted to win a French title, and that became my goal. And that was one of the biggest reasons because I needed to get out of my comfort zone again, because when I go into my comfort zone, I pick up weight and I get a bit lazy like we all do.

[00:31:26] I’m a human being. I’m not perfect. And I went to France because I needed to get, get out of my comfort zone. I wanted to learn about a new culture. I wanted to learn to speak a new language. I wanted to evolve as a human being. I wanted to prove to myself that I can go to another country and I can still continue to level up my performance and, and that’s what I wanted to achieve.

[00:31:50] Yes, we can argue the end. At the age of 30, you’re chasing a good salary. Who doesn’t? That’s life. You know, that’s business. But it was driven about experiencing another country, experiencing something different. And I think to all our listeners and the viewers that are following the show today, if you’re not willing to go into that fear zone.

[00:32:11] And, and you know, Tim just mentioned you just gotta start and you just gotta go for it. You just gotta go for it. At that stage, was it the right decision? Who knows? Because potentially I was on track to be part of a group that, and we did it. I could have potential have become a legend in South Africa and I’m like crazy.

[00:32:32] But I decided to go on to go play in a team where there were other legends where I’m not the only guy in the team. And, and that itself was scary. And I think the important lesson from that is that you gotta put yourself in an uncomfortable position at times to discover firstly who you are, what you are capable of.

[00:32:53] And you gotta give yourself the opportunity to learn. And you spoke about reinvention. I mean, that’s what we’re all doing, flipper, aren’t we? We are rediscovering ourselves as former athletes. And, and, and also the end of the day, it’s one thing that I’ve learned that yes, I was, um. Nominated Player of the Year and won that award.

[00:33:13] But titles don’t define you. A title doesn’t mean that you’re someone that’s brilliant and great. So that’s what drove, drove me in a nutshell, going to France, that experience, creating new memories, and also proving to myself that I can play in a foreign country and also perform at the level and even more than like a dead back at the Bulls.

[00:33:32] Justinus: Wow, that’s awesome. Karo, Tim, you’ve also experienced that pool and moved countries more than once and started over in a new context. What was it like landing in Angola? What was it like landing in Portugal? What was the biggest obstacles you had to face in, in creating success in those new contexts?

[00:33:53] Tim: Yeah, you know, like when I said that, you know, you, you, I’d lost basically everything.

[00:33:58] It’s actually not true because again, I never lost my family. You know, I, I’d got married, uh, a year before, you know, it got really tough when she married. When Lydia married me, I was like, on top of the world, you know. And then a year later, actually when she married me, I was also looking quite good. I had a six pack and that disappeared as well.

[00:34:17] I don’t know what happened. That was probably also inflammation from that age on. I don’t know. But, um, you know, I had the family and that was amazing, you know, and the Portuguese are family is a big thing. So it’s a, you know, I always had that had great friends, you know, I’ve still got my high school friends, my primary school friends.

[00:34:33] Two of the, my primary school friends still work with me in the BGA projects, you know, so I had that. And those foundations mean a lot, you know, those foundations and as I said, and then your values and your ethics that come with you. ’cause I’ve always been one of those people that I prefer to lose my money than other people’s money, you know?

[00:34:51] So I prefer to, you know, um, you know, bite the bullets, then have someone else bite the bullet. So it, it, it, it, it’s like a lot of these old school values. And obviously when you have these old school values, just tough finding a few other people with these old school values. And I think. That’s when it gets a little bit better for you.

[00:35:10] You know, you, you’re never truly alone. So a lot of my friends are like that. Um, and I, and, and so on. And when I started new, um, I still had the reputation, so it opened doors, you know? Um, and I, I’m very, very grateful for that. I got no regrets. I think losing that, you know, the brewery and starting all over was the best university degree ever.

[00:35:34] I think it was so, so good. And, um, everything I learned from it and, you know, it, it was just amazing and everything I went through. ’cause also, it, it, it cleans out your life of a lot of issues, you know? I remember. The stress I was going through, the anxiety you’re going through, you know, you’ve gotta pay salaries, you’re paying taxes, you’re paying everything except yourself, and it’s like a hole that you keep digging bigger.

[00:35:55] So I learned to stop digging, you know, that’s the first thing when you want to close a hole, stop digging. Don’t keep digging. But it’s a difficult decision to make. When do you stop digging? You know, when do you actually realize that you’re not being persistent? You’re just being stupid, you know? So I learned a lot of those kinds of things where I, you know, my idea was I’d buy SAB, not them, me, you know, uh, you know, so you learn.

[00:36:17] But when you are young, it’s very, very important. And I think you do learn by doing. You’d learn from experiences. There’s no other way. So yeah, when I got to Angola, um, I had a good reputation. I got going. Um, uh, I was, again, very adaptable. You know, you, you, you’ve got to, um, you know, with the experiences you have, have in life, they prepare you for successes.

[00:36:39] All the failures prepare you for the successes. You know, without a doubt, if you never fail, you’re never also gonna be truly successful, you know? So those kinds of things start to happen. And, um, I was, again, uh, I found good partners. Uh, we, we, we had different strengths. Um, uh, he was good in operations. I was good at, uh, the networking side, finding clients, finding the opportunities and so on.

[00:37:03] We grew something amazing. Um, our, our, our shareholders that came in was a Norwegian sovereign fund. So, you know, we got this amazing due diligence done and they ran the finances. So we are probably the cleanest and go in business in the world. You know, they, they had this. Fun to invest in businesses and they only invested in us and a little farm.

[00:37:23] ’cause they could, they could never do due diligence. It would always end up after a week they had to give up. So, you know, that, that was great. And then I just, you know, I, I fell in love with creating impact. Uh, I saw the impact we were creating. We had projects where we were doing cataract, uh, operations, laser operations.

[00:37:43] We, we managed to do so many good things by, you know, having a business that made money and then we could do good things, you know, so that’s where BGA came from as well. Like a profit for purpose. We were doing that in Angola and so on. So it was great. You know, um, the employees that I’ve still got there, you know, are still the same employees.

[00:38:02] The first guy I ever saw when I walked out the airport, he still works for us, you know, so it’s crazy. You know, those kinds of things are crazy. As I said. You know, maybe I’m just very bad at firing people because it seems like all my friends are still with me. But, you know, that is what it is. And, uh, and I, and again, you know, the, the other thing is I, I really do believe that when you do find your purpose, as you know, coach D was saying, and you’ve got passion and, and you, you’ve got more, you know, you’ve got something else inside you.

[00:38:30] It’s like a fire. Uh, then you’ve got a superpower, you know? And then if you are also, you know, blessed enough to be able to work with people you admire and you like, that fire becomes like even bigger, you know? And then, uh, you’re gonna go through tough times. But if you learn to be transparent, to also tell people, listen, we’re going through a tough time.

[00:38:48] How do we get out of this? Don’t hide it. Don’t, you know, in the beginning I used to take it all on myself. You know, I would come to work happy, et cetera, but I knew the stress we were under. Now I share it more, you know, I say, listen guys, we have to think about this. Like what do we do? How are we in this together?

[00:39:03] And I think the team loves it a lot more because they feel like they also, part of this. And you know what? They also feel like they need to deliver more. So I’ve always been, I remember when I interviewed Jack Welsh and uh, it was one of the best interviews I’ve ever done in my life. I was lucky enough to interview quite a few really interesting and inspiring people.

[00:39:22] But him, I spent, uh, an afternoon with him in New York and um, he told me something. He said, you know, Tim, I’ve always fired at bottom 10% of my people and uh, it’s something that you should look at. And then I said, you know, Jack, like I’ve always just worked at the 10%, my top 10% and let them worry about the other 90%.

[00:39:45] You know, I’ve really always given them the power and power. And, and then he told me, you know, Tim, I think you’ve got the future way of working. I was the past. And then he also gave me some more advice. And I think it’s, it’s good advice. ’cause I think, you know, you guys want to, you’ve got a podcast that is to try and impact people and so on.

[00:40:02] And he also told me, you know, when he was a young kid, he was Irish descent. He, all the families around him had like 12 kids and he was, uh, uh, only kid. And he used to go to school and walk him back home. He’d get beaten up, you know, and like it was the worst time of his life. And the one day he walks in, he’s just been beaten up, he’s bleeding and everything.

[00:40:24] His mom, you know, tells him the next day, tells him, uh, what happened, Jack? He says, I just got beaten up. So he says, okay, wash up and, uh, be a little tougher tomorrow. And he thought, you know, what? Do you be a little tougher tomorrow? I mean, surviving and all that. And he says that that’s what he forgot when he became a dad.

[00:40:43] He says he made everything so simple for his kids. He gave them everything. He never let them get beaten up. He didn’t let them get a little tougher. And he says he’s got good kids, but they’re not going to change the world. Like, you know, he employed 800,000 people in Unbelievable. And I think it’s that, you know, I think our backgrounds, you know.

[00:41:00] As you said, it was tough. You went through all those things. You had to support the All Blacks. I can’t even imagine that. That must have been the worst thing ever. So, you know, and then you know, you got through it, you got pushed back in the Scrum and all that. That’s love. There’s all these ups and downs.

[00:41:15] There’s all these times where you do doubt yourself with arts question, but if you’ve got that support, you’ve got those foundations, you’ve got those values and ethics. I think, you know, it’s it. And then if you’ve got Faith, I think as well, because that’s one thing I’ve always had in my life. I was lucky enough to have a grandmother who.

[00:41:31] Who, you know, read the Bible and told me tomorrow the sun will come back up and, you know, pray to God, uh, he’ll give you everything and make, make your problems these problems. Hey, I was passing on so many problems to you, you know, so, uh, I think you need that faith. You need that light, you need that hope.

[00:41:47] And if you’ve got those things, you’ve got something that many people don’t have, you know, and you, you, it it allows you to, to hang around until everything changes, you know, and, and then you back up and then you’re going again. And then either you’ve learned a lot or you think you’re just great, but you shouldn’t, you should just remember, uh, you learned a lot and, uh, you know, uh, because yeah, it’s, it’s a tough times, but it’s, uh, those are the times that really fault you, I think, without a doubt.

[00:42:18] Jon: Yeah.

[00:42:23] Tim: Some, some very good stuff in there. It’s, um, yeah, I, I, Jack, well, like, uh, is like, you know, um. What’s the, his, his book winning or what’s, can’t remember. But I, I, I love, I love Jack Welsh. He’s, he’s at the, all the leadership books and 70 20 10 principle. Yeah. Um, I know it’s, it’s, you got to interview some brilliant people.

[00:42:45] Um, Gare, uh, Ravi. So we, we both still in Boston of France, uh, enjoying, enjoying, enjoying the, the, the good love that France, France has to give. Um, but, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not always a smooth road. Yeah. In France, you know, um, mainly because of the French, uh, yourself as well. When you, when you, when you, when you got to, to loses, um, you know, it wasn’t, wasn’t always a smooth road.

[00:43:15] Uh, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.

[00:43:17] Guthro: Yeah, I think, um, you know, I had this idea in my, my mind when I arrived at, to lose, you know, okay, it’s gonna be good, it’s gonna be easy, it’s fine. And then I thought at least everybody spoke a certain level of English, but then I just realized that they just, they don’t care.

[00:43:33] They don’t want to speak like you in their country. Like, uh, and, and, and I remember those, those awkward silences, you know, arrive at training and you’re like, Bon bon. And then like. Crickets. Like, I dunno what to say because you, you can’t communicate. Yeah. You know, France, I, I, I think I wish, and that’s what I always tell players, a lot of players don’t make it in France because one, they don’t embrace the culture.

[00:44:00] They try to constantly compare to where they were before. And in the beginning I was still constantly doing that. I think the way we were training wasn’t the right way and I wasn’t always agreeing with what we were doing. But the, the big adaptation was not being able to express yourself in the way you used to flip.

[00:44:20] You knew me and like before a game, I would lose my shit because, uh, I wanted to make sure that everybody’s ready to go to war. You know, we needed to conquer and destroy, you know, we all had our roles in the team. You know, you had your calmer leaders like Victor and Fare. They didn’t do that. They were more calm and meticulous in the wording and everything like that.

[00:44:38] And guys like myself and Gary had a different role, but coming to France was a huge reality shock. Once you. Get over that Ani moon period, and once you’ve eaten a croissant every single day and a Chaka Latin and all those stuff, then, then reality sets in and it’s like, where’s my people? You know, my friends, my family, like I’m alone.

[00:45:06] You know? It’s all good. You’re walking in town and you hear everybody, oh, stink, I’m stink, I’m okay. You know, you know, it’s fine. That’s great. But then you find yourself, okay, shit, I’m alone. You know, I’m, I’ve moved my whole family across what now, you know? Then reality sets in your, your wife, she had a job when she was in South Africa and now she doesn’t, uh, you got two kids, you got another one on the way.

[00:45:38] She’s sitting at home, she’s dealing with everything so that you can chase your dream. And, uh, and, and I won’t lie to you, that’s the harsh reality of, uh, relocating to another country. And the French people are great. I’ll be honest with you. We’ve met some amazing people. People we met when we just arrived, but I think that was the biggest challenge in the beginning, not having family.

[00:46:00] And that’s why it was important. I was fortunate enough to be surrounded with some amazing people. And back then my a installed, my friend today, an agent at Damian Duso. He did a lot of stuff for me, helped me massively. And the, the, the support was key. And we don’t always have that as foreign players. And the big challenge for me was that G was in South Africa, the Blue Bulls player.

[00:46:25] He needed to find himself again. Because what got me going as well was motivating the team, inspiring the team before a game, but by doing that, so I’m like, listen, yeah, you just said that, so you better show up. You, you better pitch up. You can’t give us great speech, you can’t get the guys pumped up and then like they say in French, you know?

[00:46:47] So that was that. And, and, and not being able to express myself that, that, that was tough. That was hard. But then it comes to a point like Tim just said, you learn, you, you gotta adapt. Adaptability. Then I realized, you know what? I’m not in South Africa anymore. I’m not in the same system. I can’t change the system.

[00:47:08] I’ve gotta find myself within the system. And when I made that mind shift, I started learning the language. I started to become more patient. And listen, this is not my house. I’m a guest in the house. Alright? So now it’s all about what am I gonna do to bring my edge to this team? What am I gonna do? To show who I am with the French culture with that.

[00:47:33] And I think that was the biggest thing. Flip, you know, that adaptation period and something which we are not prepared for. The, the culture shock. The, I mean, I remember going into the gym, you know, the Bulls gym back in the day when we walked into the gym, let’s go. We would pump each other up. We would encourage each other.

[00:47:51] We were shouting and screaming, unless you were Donnie, Raso was just walking up and down, sitting on a stabilizer ball, not, uh, lifting any weights at all. But he did his job on the field. Then he would walk into a gym and the French players would be eating a croissant and having espresso in the gym. I’m like, dude, what are you guys doing?

[00:48:11] This is a place of work. And they were like, oh, gee, gee, easy, easy. You, you’re too serious. You gotta enjoy life. And, and you know what? And and that’s where I realized, and that’s where I think for the first time, you know, I, I realized. In certain times in my career, I’ve always gone to the extreme side of things.

[00:48:34] You know, either I was all in or I was all the way out. I would lose weight, I would pick up weight, I would go outta shape, get back into shape, lose form, get back into form. It was always to the extreme. And I think therefore, the first time I, I finally figured out what was balance. You know, you’re coming there, you gotta work and you gotta graft.

[00:48:57] And it was just unbelievable. The experience playing for start to losen back then going in front is not the same amount of people we used to in South Africa, smaller stadiums, but the, the atmosphere was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. And that period of adaptation wasn’t easy. And once again, I think that’s one of, one of the biggest lessons I learned, I think was.

[00:49:20] Adaptability, finding balance. Actually, look, listen here, there’s times that you need to switch off. There’s times that you actually need to just spend with your family. But we talk a lot about, we throw this word, word around loosely. Resilience. So resilience. I don’t believe it’s something that can just be taught you, you can work hard at it to try and develop it.

[00:49:43] And so, but it comes through life experience that no matter what gets thrown at you, that you find a way to move forward. And I dunno if you know this, but uh, you remember in 2014 when I, that catastrophic game against Argentina, I got bumped in the scrum bomb and I got back to Tolu and I’m waiting to see my family.

[00:50:07] Uh, my daughter was, my, my youngest was born back then, so I’m looking forward to seeing her. I haven’t seen her for months and. No disrespect to my agent and my agent standing at the airport, I’m like, dude, what you doing? Yo? Where’s my family? No, gee, just for us to spend some time and get in a car, like listen.

[00:50:24] Said, stop. Bing me, what’s up? And so I probably had one of my worst games for the spring box after 2009. And then he breaks the news in the car for me. Gee, the club wants you to leave. You’re done. I’m like, what? I didn’t even play for them. He’s like, no. Well, the coach vis, he saw your game against, uh, Argentina, he doesn’t want that.

[00:50:47] So now I’m in the car, I’m like, how do I break this to my wife? We have relocated. We moved in 2011. All the kids over, took them out of school. Everything. I still had two years left on my contract. And, and anyway, next day, go to the club. Thought everything was gonna be all hunky, do, it’s fine. You know, just gonna chat.

[00:51:04] They will probably talk to me late in the week. And the coach greets me, Bonjour. And then he says to him, infringe, have you found a club yet? I’m like, dude, I just learned this yesterday. Wow. And I’m like, nah, this is ridiculous. Then the, the recruitment officer comes to me, gee, have you found a club? I’m like, guys, I just arrived from the Springbok tour.

[00:51:24] I just literally arrived. He’s like, just gimme time. And that’s what I said, you know what? Stuff it, stuff it, I’m gonna get in a fight now I’m gonna put on my gloves and I’m ready to go and I don’t need a mouth guard. I don’t need head gear. Let’s go. And I played for two months with a bazooka against, or a gun against my head, knife in my throat, in a bazooka up my asshole.

[00:51:47] Right? Any one of those three could’ve killed me, right? Anyone would’ve gone. That’s how it felt. Playing under pressure, consistently training under pressure, consistently. And, and you know what, and it comes down to we, we, we, we throw the word purpose as well, and back then, and our reason for being, um, you know, and French is a, you know, and it was like, I need to do this for my family.

[00:52:13] In the past. My driving force was I wanted to show what I’m capable of doing, that I can be an elite athlete, that I can achieve great things on the field. But then it changed. I’m doing this for my family. I need to protect my family and that, and that’s what I was doing and I grafted and I had to have a hard look at myself.

[00:52:30] The things that I’ve done in the past didn’t work anymore. Uh, I needed to acknowledge myself that I’ve taken a dip and then two months later I’m in the gym and I’m probably playing some of the best rugby of my life. And they still kept on every single day for two months, asked me if I found a club. And even before games, like the one game, I remember the coach says, oh gee, when you play for South Africa, you are good.

[00:52:57] But when you play for to lose, you are shit, you know, in front of the whole team. Stuff like that. I too, I’ve never been criticized like that in my life publicly. By a coach. You know, they had ways of coming around, whether it was he Mayor France, Luca, they had a way of speaking to us. But being humiliating team like that, I, I’ve never experienced that.

[00:53:17] But after two months he comes to me in the gym. Oh gee, it’s good to see you back. It’s okay. You can stay. I give you another two years.

[00:53:30] It must have been amazing to get that bazooka out. Oh, man. Relief. Oh, but you know, flip, I know it was a longwinded answer, but I, I think what France taught me is that we are capable of overcoming everything. You know, when we are home in South Africa, and I love South Africa, I’m proudly South African, you know, when we have a support system around us.

[00:53:54] You know, people to pick up the pieces, but when there’s nobody else around you to pick up the pieces, it is nobody else. That’s where you discover really who you are and what you are capable of achieving. And I mean, that lessons served me till today. I mean, I made a big decision in July to stop becoming the scrum coach at La Rochelle so I can chase my dreams because I don’t just wanna be a scrum coach.

[00:54:18] That’s not my destiny, that’s not the path that has been laid out for me. And, and I would be a hypocrite hypocrite if I’m telling people, get out of your comfort zone, but I’m just staying in mine. But yeah, so that’s what France has been for me so far.

[00:54:32] Justinus: That’s amazing. Coach. Gee, I mean, that whole idea of the adversity shaping our grit and our ability to adapt, uh, is, is such a, such a deeply resonant thought.

[00:54:46] Um, Tim, for you. Yeah, I mean, you land in, uh, Portugal, you make the decision to go to Portugal and you end up on the Shark Tank, and I assume that became a springboard for, for a brand new career in, in Portugal. Tell us a little bit about that and what adversity that you face in that journey.

[00:55:07] Tim: Yeah, it’s, it’s exactly, you know, what we’ve been discussing.

[00:55:11] You know, you’ve got to, like, I always have South Africa in my heart and I always, you know, um, I love what we are we positive people, we, we, we straightforward, we, you know, people we can rely on and on. But also when we do go into foreign places, we’ve got two modes. Either we want to just stick to South Africans and do LACS every weekend and live in a compound.

[00:55:34] And you know, or you know, you’ve got those South Africans who actually want to learn a new language, eat new food, see new things, learn history, um, and those ones really have a lot of fun, you know, and I think you need to. Have that mentality, you’ve gotta get in with that mentality. And my mentality was, I always had a, you know, a Portuguese past, my dad was born in Portugal.

[00:55:57] Uh, my mom in Mozambique, me in South Africa, my two boys in Angola, my daughter in Portugal. So it’s like a, a whole 360. Um, and I’ve always been, you know, blessed enough to have a bigger heart. So I’ve always had, uh, South Africa in my heart. Uh, and, uh, you know, Portugal in my heart, when Portugal played football, I was like, you know, always winning them to win.

[00:56:19] And jeez, they didn’t, just didn’t, they would kick to, you know, to goals. They would do everything but score. Uh, and then, you know, I was lucky enough to have the spring box, so, you know, there was winning and it was, you know, so I was always a very fortunate person. And I think when I got to South Africa, I mean to Portugal.

[00:56:38] I brought my South African positiveness and all that. And uh, when I got here, uh, 2010 was a tough time. There was this, uh, thing, uh, what, you know, they always say that, uh, a once in a lifetime crisis, uh, what I’ve learned is that there isn’t a once in a lifetime crisis. It seems like there’s a crisis every five to six, seven years.

[00:56:57] And, you know, you go through them, that’s it. And, um, you know, uh, they asked me to be on a program called Shark Tank. I actually got someone else to go on it, and then that person had an issue, couldn’t get on it. So then I had to like just get on it and I said, I’ll do a season. And it was a great season.

[00:57:14] Like, uh, you know, we beat Master Chef and all this, and I became. Uh, and the polls was like 90% the shark, they loved the most. ’cause I was like the positive one ’cause that was South African, you know? So I would look at people and I’d see them instead of their business. I wouldn’t be going into all the numbers.

[00:57:29] I would like to look at the person and see could they run a team? Were they, you know, um, up to changing their mind and pivoting and this and that. So it was lovely. It was a great experience. Um, I met a lot of wonderful Portuguese people. You know, as coach you were saying, met all these French people. When you’re open-minded and you got an open art, you do meet the most amazing people.

[00:57:50] And um, you know, from there on you start your network and obviously when you go on tv it opened a lot of networks, you know, so, yeah. You know, uh, the program, uh, invested through the program took a lot of time. ’cause I really put in a lot of effort on, on those projects and all that. Uh, you know, I put everything else on hold until I could get all that done.

[00:58:11] Um, but it was just great ’cause uh, I, I, I, I saw all the, you know, there was no ecosystem of startups in Portugal at that time. The banks were useless. There was no angel investors, no VCs, no nothing. But there was talent. And what would happen is you just leave the country because there was no, um, ecosystem for that.

[00:58:30] So, I must say myself, another guy called John Va Seals and someone, we probably became the most important people at setting up an ecosystem in, in startups. Um, and then I just got tired of, you know, um, investing and I thought, uh, go on my own. And, and in Portugal it’s, it’s tough business. It’s tough, aren’t you?

[00:58:50] You know, Europe, it’s tough. You know, there’s regulations, legislations, and every day there’s more and more and more. And, um, you know, they’re actually ruin it. They, they’re killing it. They’re killing business, you know, like anyone who’s got an entrepreneurial side is gonna get punished over and over. And, uh, anyone who wants to just receive a subsidy will.

[00:59:08] Rewarded, you know, uh, but you know, our spirits, anyone who wants to do more and get out their comfort zone, they’re not gonna be happy with subsidies. So that was always my thought. And then I just decided, you know, I needed to do, get back in there and do my own startup again. And that’s when I found, you know, what I do today.

[00:59:25] So it was, it was a good trip. You know, it was a voyage you have to take. Um, I’ve learned, you know, when you are doing something that doesn’t challenge you, it’s ’cause you’re probably doing the wrong thing. You know, you, you’ve got to get back out there. And then I’ve also learned as you get older that you need a lot less than you think you do.

[00:59:44] You need, and then actually when you have a lot, it’s just a lot of problems. You know, I always talk about, you go through these three stages in life, you go through need where you do need some stuff. You need the, you know, you need to live somewhere, you need to have a job, you need to be able to provide for your family.

[01:00:00] And then. Once you’ve got that, then you actually think you need a lot more. And you go through greed where you think you need more cars, you need better, bigger TVs, you need more rooms. And you have kids, uh, you need more ’cause you’re sort of competing with your neighbor. And, and then all that stuff is just giving you responsibilities then that, you know, it is giving you stress that you don’t really need all that stuff.

[01:00:20] And then if you are lucky enough, uh, you get to freed where you actually decide, you know what? I’m gonna get rid of a lot of this stuff. Hey, get rid of the stuff. And you start to do things you really enjoy. You don’t care about your neighbor. You’re actually happy driving, you know, something that isn’t the newest.

[01:00:37] You don’t have to learn every new button and it doesn’t beep all the time. And it doesn’t stop you from going fast and you gotta put a seatbelt and, you know, all these things. Uh, you know, so, you know, you get happy with what you have. Um, you know, and, uh, and that was it. I, I stopped playing the lottery. I stopped anything that could make a lot of money.

[01:00:57] I, I’d tell my friends, now, I don’t want to do that. And they would ask me, but why not? I said, you know what, let’s say we win the lottery and you get a billion euros. You’ve gotta change cars, you’ve gotta change our house. You’ve gotta change the wife because now you need a billionaire wife. You know? No, no, no, no.

[01:01:10] I’ve already done, you know, I’m in a good space. I don’t want any of that stuff. So that was it. I started to become content and, and grateful for what I have. And then again, it’s your family. In the end, it’s your family. That’s all you’re gonna leave behind. The rest means nothing, you know? So, uh, that’s it.

[01:01:27] And then as, as you, you get a little bit older, you know, gray hair and all that, you see how lucky you are just to have health. And you see around you what’s not, you know, the, the, the, the, the people around you and people you love and, and you see how, what they’re going through and all this, and geez. And you just start to say, you know.

[01:01:45] What I need is my health. I just need to be content, have a job to be able to go on a holiday, be able to spend time with those. I love, take those I love with me everywhere I go, you know? And then also those loved ones, they stubborn and they start leaving you, you know what I’m saying? Then it is, you stuck with that wife, you know, that, um, actually becomes your best friend again.

[01:02:06] You, you excited about getting all together? Uh, it’s amazing. It’s like, you know, this whole way of living, but it’s like, in your mind you never thought of it that way. You know, you would think you’d always be needing more. You’d need this, you’d need that. No, you rarely need a lot less. ’cause you’re gonna go without anything.

[01:02:22] You know what I’m saying? So, and, and especially like, you know, our family had lost, we built the game. I lost built the game, you know, and all that. And I don’t want to, uh, I, I remember telling my boys when I started, bj, listen, I can either leave you guys some money or let me just put it into bj and I promise you the best thing we are gonna do is BGA, because if I leave you with money, you’re gonna marry the wrong person.

[01:02:43] Have the wrong friends. Your life’s gonna be shitty, I’m telling you. So let me, you know, use your inheritance and build something that one day you guys have as a legacy as well. And you can keep going or, or, you know, whatever. But, and, and, uh, I think again, you know, the, the, the learn, they, they were well, um, they had a good upbringing.

[01:03:03] Um, my wife as well was this amazing mom, so it’s, uh, they said, yeah, for sure. Uh, let’s of others and we’ll be happier. So it was, it was just, it just worked. Uh, so that’s it. It’s keeping things basic and, and it’s, it is a lot more difficult than it sounds, but once you get into the habit of doing it and saying no, and not thinking of, you know, like you see an ad, just change it.

[01:03:26] I, I don’t look at watch ads anymore. I don’t, you know, before I used to collect watches. But why, you know, now I look at it, I think, what a dummy, a like, what was I doing? You know what I’m saying? Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy. You know? It’s, uh, uh.

[01:03:45] It’s, uh, it’s wonderful. Um, uh, there so many, there’s so many, so many things that I want to drag and go deeper and drag and go deeper, you know? Um, but yeah, we, we, we only have as, as much time and we have a lot of stories to tell more, um, Gare, so, so yeah. You stopped, uh, you stopped playing in 2019. 17. 17. 17, 17.

[01:04:11] Yeah. It feels like yesterday. Um, and then, you know, went into coaching and, and, and ventures and, um, how, yeah. How did you decide, okay, this is the end now. ’cause you had to lose and then you had a little bit of a stint at, at Stu. Um, yeah. Start front sec. Yeah. Went, went straight into coaching. Um, yeah. How did you decide to stop?

[01:04:34] Uh, how did you decide to do what you’re gonna do? What’s the next step?

[01:04:39] Guthro: Yeah, so, uh, you know, flip a lot of people, um, don’t realize that I did actually didn’t wanna stop in 2017. Uh, I was still physically and mentally I was in a great place. Um, you know, I actually invested in equipment at home, having a gym at home, you know, having certain equipment.

[01:04:56] I invested in, uh, working with the French s and c coach to train differently, prepare my body differently to optimize my performance. And it was working, it was going really well. And then I had to deal with the harsh reality of, uh, the end of an era we were to lose. We had some great players like, uh, Patal Bassetti, you know, had Luke McAllister all these guys, and it was time for to lose to, to clean up new coach.

[01:05:23] And it was tough for us, the old God to kind of accept that, but it was the right decision at the time. If you look at all the success to Lose has achieved over the last few years, it was spot on. So. I, I, I was, uh, actually just spoke earlier to Brian Liebenberg when I asked him this question. How did he develop his concept of catch and think?

[01:05:43] And he said, gee, it was like the night before exams and you realize you didn’t study and you gotta write it tomorrow. And, and, and that was kind of the, the situation I was sitting in when I realized that, when I was told they wouldn’t sign me on for plus one. And firstly, this is another lesson in France, when, when you get a two plus one, you think it’s your right to activate that optional year.

[01:06:04] But actually the club decides if you can activate it first, they will say yes, then you can say yes or no. But if they say no, it’s just no. And then I had to deal with the harsh reality. Okay, I need to look for a new gig. And I wasn’t too worried, to be honest with you, flip because there was offers, there was like 10 offers.

[01:06:22] And then for some reason, and then, and I know exactly what happened, those offers disappeared. All right? Just takes one person to plant a bad seed, and those offers disappeared. This is not a place to talk about who that was and what they did, because that’s something which I discovered years later. But then I was at home and it was 2017.

[01:06:45] I wasn’t ready to stop. I wasn’t ready to say goodbye to the game. And probably for three months, all I did was training my garage. I had my rower, I had my weights, I had a squat track. I trained every single day not knowing what’s gonna come. Potentially at some stage, I’d say, you know what? I gotta give up.

[01:07:04] I remember I used to harass my agent. Do we have something? What’s happening? Why do we have something? What’s going on? And all I did was I just started preparing myself for that opportunity. And then I came to Sta Fronte. Then I got there as a medical joker, and I was say like, wow, this is an amazing blessing.

[01:07:21] I, I honestly, I was at the stage where I could say, okay, it’s done. So when I was at Sta Fronte. Being away from my family. And I was with the student flat there in, uh, Paris. And, and you know, I was playing and I was there and, and, and it just shows you the, the misconceptions people have. I was the age of, back then I was, what, 36?

[01:07:43] I didn’t have a preseason. And they were like, ah, no, he’s old. It’s not gonna happen. We did the first fitness test. We ran in front me, beat the flankers. They were pissed off at me. I did a Bronco test on my own. I ran a 4 54. They were like, what’s going on here? And, and it comes down to everything I’ve learned in my career.

[01:08:03] Like I knew I’m gonna give it my best. But then there came a stage where I also had to be honest with myself. I was physically good, I was feeling good. I was mentally good, but I was not performing at the same level anymore. And instead of forcing the journey to continue, I knew right, it’s time for me to stop.

[01:08:25] It’s time for me to focus on life after rugby because when that plus one was not activated, that actually made me realize I didn’t plan ahead in terms of what I’m gonna do after rugby. You know, you put money away, you do all those type of things, you invest, but what am I gonna do? And that was a decision which was tough.

[01:08:47] That’s where I realized, you know what? I need to get my shit in order. It’s time for me to stop. I need to do my coaching ’cause I want to coach. That’s what I wanted, what I, what I wanted to, to do. But it was probably one of the toughest decisions I had to make in my life. And I, I still remember, you know, it comes back to what we said, flip and, uh, you know, Justin is with.

[01:09:09] In France, you don’t always have a support system like people to look after your kids. I mean, back in the day, my Mrs you got to take, pay 50 euros for a taxi and then you pay 50 euros for the babysitter and then you have a meal, costs you a hundred euros and then there’s another 50 Euros back, 250 euros, you know, boom like that.

[01:09:29] And originally my, I played my last game against AJ and, and I always in the ball up to that last game, every, I think for a month I played with Mote and William Bert at Start Front say, and, and I would, after each training, I prepared myself. I would just say to them, guys, thanks for the memories. And they’re like, what are you talking about?

[01:09:50] You still good? I’m like, thanks for the memories. ’cause I knew my time was coming and for that last game. Uh, I learned that my, my family won’t be able to make it. My misses couldn’t come out. My kids were like, my son was sick, blah, blah, blah. And we couldn’t find anyone to look after the kids and my wife to come.

[01:10:09] And, you know, being South African, being proud, you know, we don’t show any emotions. And I remember running out for the warmup and I just looked left and my whole family was there. And as I was running, I just broke out into tears. And, and that’s where it hit me. This is the end. And ev I got overwhelmed with them.

[01:10:31] And not just the end of a journey, but in that moment, in that warmup, I’m like, what’s next? What’s next? And the scary part, you know, flip not everywhere. And one of my biggest regrets, and I, and this is something which I share on my podcast as well, and I, and I, and I tell the, the, the listeners, the younger players, invest in yourself in the terms of.

[01:10:52] Not just in education, but spend time with the sponsors. Spend time with the people that you cross paths with. When you meet people like Tim, for example, be like a sponge. Learn, learn. I had to learn on the fly. I wanted to become a scrum coach back then, a specialized coach. I wanted to help professional rugby players level up their performances.

[01:11:14] Guess what? They didn’t want the mile because they had a big ego. They didn’t think they needed, they didn’t, they felt, if they asked me, that means they weren’t good enough. But at the end of the day, they would only come to me when they win the shit, when their contract was up or they were really bad, then they will call me.

[01:11:32] But that was the time flip when I decided I, I made peace with it. But that’s where I had to focus everything that I’ve learned in my career, all the obstacles I overcame, and let’s call a spade as spade. We as rugby players, we are spoiled, right? We, we, we, we are because. We for some reason have an identity crisis when rugby stops.

[01:11:56] Oh, life is so hard. Oh, this is so tough. Well, this is what this guy’s been living since he was 18, so I’ll be that different. And that’s where I realized I had had a choice to make and the path wasn’t clear. I don’t have a degree like you, my man, you’ve got a great business sense and everything. And, and I was lost.

[01:12:17] I didn’t know how to pitch my services. I was doing scrum sessions, but, okay, great. I thought just by doing a post on Instagram, uh, if you want to improve your sm send me a dm. What did I get? Crickets. But there I learned again that I needed to earn the trust Again, I, I didn’t feel credible as a coach because I was a great player, but I wasn’t a great coach yet.

[01:12:39] And, and, and, and this is also what my podcast is about with the, the Coach G Show. It’s that when I was a rugby. I used to be goro, this was a player that was doubting himself. But when I transformed into G this was someone that was confident, that was driven and was chasing something. And I said, I need to find Coach G.

[01:13:00] That’s the person I need to find the part, the person that’s willing to go above and beyond. But I’ll be honest with you, flip, it wasn’t clear, but it aligns a lot with, with what, what Tim said. I wanted to create impact, whether it was as a coach, whether it was in the, in the corporate space. And that’s where I discovered I had a voice.

[01:13:19] Uh, and that just came by chance. Um, a former sponsor of the club, he invited me to go do a motivational talk in French. I like, I don’t feel confident doing that, you know, speaking in French, like, don’t, don’t worry. I’m gonna make a mistakes, like don’t care. And after that talk, people applauded. I was like.

[01:13:40] What’s going on with it. These people like drunk or something, they’re like having a drinks or whatever, what’s going on? Because I knew I made a few mistakes there while speaking, but that’s where I realized they could feel my passion and they can feel my drive. And it was, it was a massive learning curve.

[01:13:56] And it, it’s about being consistent. And, and, and this is what I love about podcasting, and Tim just said, you know, if you got that passion and you got that drive and you’re believing in it, and I didn’t, doors were closing down for me as a coach, I would hear things like, sorry, uh, we can’t take you as a coach because you played at the higher level than the coach.

[01:14:16] You, you can’t come to our club because you played at to lose. You’re going to stay here for two years. You’re gonna share all our series. Now you can’t coach at our club because you’re South African. The door’s closed. At end of the stage, I was, I was treading water. I was like, where do I go? I need, look, this, I got mage, but mage is gonna run out.

[01:14:35] So that’s unemployment for the listeners that are in France, you know, and then all of a sudden things started happening just by being consistent, putting myself out there sometimes making a fool. Then I started getting gigs in the corporate space, doing team bold session, doing webinars. And then I just felt that I had this burning desire to, to share knowledge, to share my passion with people, and that when I resorted to social media, I, I, I don’t go on social media for likes or for views.

[01:15:03] I, I’m not an influencer. I’m someone that wants to impact people. I want you to change. And, and the greatest, uh, reward from that has been receiving messages from youngster saying, coach, I was thinking about committing suicide for a second time, but then I heard your message. I started training. It’s been now more than a month, I’ve lost 10 kgs.

[01:15:25] Getting messages like that makes it all worth it. It makes it all worth it. And, and funny and, and, and I think that’s the advice I want to give to people is that I, I’m on a new path now. Again, I’m reinventing myself again. I’m starting a neutral, it’s scared as hell. I’m scared as hell in terms of, I’m like, this thing, what did I do?

[01:15:41] I should have maybe stayed in my comfort zone, have my fixed salary every month. But no, that’s not who I was. I’m not living my dream by just being a scrum coach. I want to be more. And I remember by blasting out my passion, being crazy on Instagram lives and stuff like that. And some people were making fun, but I didn’t care.

[01:16:01] And because of that, Instagram Live, Jonah Gibbs from La Rochelle, and he said to me, gee, would you like to come coach at La Rochelle? I loved what you just shared there, your philosophies, your principles, your frameworks. That’s what I’m looking for. And that’s how I ended up at La Rochelle. And I thought the atypical path, it wasn’t, doors didn’t open miraculously.

[01:16:23] And that comes down to the same principle. I’m a former Bulls rugby player. I was conditioned to break down walls, bring the walls, I will break them down.

[01:16:36] Justinus: That’s awesome. You know what’s amazing to me is, and we think out, we often talk about putting ourselves in the position to be lucky, like creating the environment where, where luck can happen.

[01:16:48] And like in your story there, there was three or four times where you didn’t know what’s next, but you just did what you needed to do and then the opportunity ends up coming. So you really put yourself in a, a position in a position to take advantage of whatever might come your way. That is fantastic. So Tim, for you, BGA came and you dove head deep into basically storing over, like you said earlier, and putting your kids in edit and into taking, uh, a gamble and doing something spectacular and.

[01:17:20] And tell us a little bit about that journey and, and how you’ve grown astronomically in the last few years.

[01:17:28] Tim: Yeah, it was, um, again, you know, like, um, I used to spend a lot of time with my kids, so I always thought education wasn’t just the school’s, uh, problem or, or task, you know, to do so. I used to always take them around with me and so on.

[01:17:42] So you, I really became friends with him, you know. And, um, in 2019 we did this other trip and it was an amazing trip. It was on the Trans Siberia through Russia, Mongolia, China, then Vietnam, Malaysia, uh, Thailand, Japan, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, and got back, you know, and then I put them back into a traditional school, a good one, nothing wrong with it, you know, just put them back there.

[01:18:07] Two weeks later I go pick them up and, you know, I’m all excited. So how’s it going? What are you learning? And they said, dad, it’s like just the same as what you did at school. And I thought to myself, yeah, that’s not fair. I suffered at school, you know, having to learn all these things I didn’t need, and now you back here doing the same thing.

[01:18:26] So I said, but what are you learning? So they said the Romans, and I remember too, the Romans again, but you did the Romans last year. Yeah. But we’re doing it now again, you know? And I thought, ah, it’s, it’s just not right. So I said, well, you know what? I’m taking you guys outta school. You’re gonna just spend time with me and we’ll start doing some curriculum on online.

[01:18:42] And uh, and I remember my elder started to cry because he wanted to be like a head boy, you know? And all this, he was showing me he was 15. My other one was, well, he wasn’t even 15, he was 14 and 12. And, uh, he said, no, he doesn’t want to. So I said, well, you’re gonna do two months, and then if you want to go back, you go back, you know?

[01:18:59] And my other one was like, yeah, I’m outta here. I’m, I’m going. Because he already had, you know, he was very lucky to have a passion. Early on it was all about rockets and things. So for him, school was like in finishing work early and then getting into trouble. You know, and then getting told to go to the side.

[01:19:16] So that was that. So the two of them started, they were my two Guinea pigs. Uh, we didn’t know what we would do. I just knew I, I wanted to do something. I’ve been for a long time wanting to do something in education. I got involved with Nava University. I became one of their advisors and helped them set up this amazing campus.

[01:19:33] Um, and then, um, I started, and then after a little while I looked again and we had 19 kids in my Tim’s garage in this place that, you know, it’s not supposed to have kids. And they were like, all these kids there. And I said, what’s happening? And my wife said, well, you know, another one came in and said, these kids are not adapting to school.

[01:19:51] They, once him, you know, yell with us. And I tell the parents, school. Yeah, we are not, we are not a Riverside. It’s not

[01:20:01] Guthro: Riverside brother. It’s not Riverside.

[01:20:06] Tim: So I was saying, you know, like, you know, the, the parents were telling us, you know, uh, my kid, it’s not working. The school’s not working. He’s a problem. And I just started seeing how many problem kids there were, and it couldn’t be the kids, you know, it just couldn’t be the kids. So that’s when I started to say, look, we’re gonna change the system and not the kids.

[01:20:23] And you know, if we change the system, it’ll probably fix the kids. And that’s what happened. You know, it’s normally the system that you’re in. Even when you a rugby player, you’re in the wrong system. You struggle a lot. You know, it doesn’t matter if they motivate you, if the next day you go back to the same system, you’re still in that system.

[01:20:38] It’s not going to, you’re not gonna improve and you’re gonna have anxiety and you’re gonna be, you know, feeling, uh, mentally down, you know? So we started to change the system. What did we do? Simple things. We just said, look, we’d have a school that’s open all year, no holiday. You know, you go on holiday when you want, but the school’s open audio year.

[01:20:58] Uh, you’re able to write exams three times a year. So we, we used the British International curriculum, so we were able to do, our kids could write either Southern Hemisphere, the Northern Hemisphere exam seasons, and there’s a extra exam season. So our kids could write exams three times a year. If they didn’t do well in Jan, they just rewrote in May.

[01:21:16] You know what that does to a kid? It takes away a lot of anxiety, you know, because it’s not the end of the world that one exam a year, you know. Uh, so we started to do that. We started to have learning coaches, so instead of the teachers, so, uh, we had the teachers in the background, they would prepare all the curriculum.

[01:21:30] Kids could go at their own pace. So they would have these 25 minute lessons. They read, they watch, they do a quiz, get 80% go to the next one. So they would start to see themselves growing mastery and uh, and the faster they went, the more they did, the timeline would come closer. So they would say, if I keep going this rate, I can finish in six months.

[01:21:48] If I finish. You know, so they would start taking responsibility and ownership of the, of the program. And we just started to see this amazing kids who were naughty doing work. Kids that, you know, were very academic, doing a lot more work. We started getting some amazing results. We got two best in the world students.

[01:22:06] Out of like 5 million students. We got, uh, four best in Europe, best in South Africa, best in Africa, nine best in Portugal. So the system started to work. Um, and we weren’t an academic school and that was amazing. So we started to attract a lot of sportsmen. So sports, kids, surfers, skaters, tennis players, golfers that needed to travel.

[01:22:27] They could now travel and use their days that they traveled as holidays and then come back and, you know, do that. So that was great. And then obviously we also had those kids who struggled at school. So. They started to come in. Uh, we started new, a new curriculum. We offered the American, then we offered the up pathway.

[01:22:45] At 16. You could start your university with us. You didn’t have to do your final two years. You could start, we’d get your level three, you get a high school exit certificate, do another two years with us, and then you go and finalize at the university for the final year and you get your degree. And it, you know, that changed a lot of other kids’ lives.

[01:23:02] ’cause they just thought, yes, uh, I’m done by, you know, 19, 20, I’ve got a degree, my parents are happy and I’m outta here. You know, so, you know, for a lot of kids it started to change the way they did things. We also were able to really do some amazing stuff, you know, like our kids in places like Gaza wrote exams through this whole conflict.

[01:23:23] So they were able to do that remotely. We’ve got goals in Afghanistan, 28 goals. There another future. Don’t worry about Riverside. Even though it’s

[01:23:30] Guthro: sketch you on your guys site, it comes out fine on another side. It just needs to log back in.

[01:23:35] Jon: Yeah,

[01:23:38] Tim: so Jonathan will save it.

[01:23:45] Guthro: What did we say? Now

[01:23:47] Tim: you, you’re not plugged in. Jonathan, we can’t hear you.

[01:23:52] Justinus: Oh, we can, we can oddly hear you, Jonathan. I don’t know if you’re in the right mind or

[01:24:00] Jon: I said it sounds more. Unbelievable when you were saying it.

[01:24:02] Justinus: Yeah. Yeah. We listen to G. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard not to believe when Coach G says

[01:24:15] Tim: somebody.

[01:24:18] Guthro: Yeah, I got transform

[01:24:33] the game. So ell, a podcast platform. Okay. Wow. Yeah. So

[01:24:49] yeah. So, um,

[01:24:52] Tim: this, uh.

[01:24:56] Game, obviously. Mm-hmm. It was recorded for my full self, but then mm-hmm. Follow

[01:25:08] WhatsApp platform. Yeah. Adam and Jonathan. Post what?

[01:25:14] Guthro: Yeah, there’s a, i, I, I consistent with, um, consistent target in, in podcast.

[01:25:28] So, um,

[01:25:41] podcast that it means that the,

[01:26:06] Justinus: I think for Mike Ro is at, at, well four years, but I think

[01:26:16] where he struggles for all hanman, um, I, I think.

[01:26:28] Vulnerable.

[01:27:06] Um, yeah. Hi Tim. Welcome back. Hi guys. Sorry I got

[01:27:11] Tim: dropped. Eh, I got dropped from the team there. Uh, dunno what I said. Sorry. No problem. That’s one of the kids pulled the plug out probably. No, but that’s what I was saying. You know, so BGA was amazing. Today we’re making a big impact as well, like in, in South Africa, we are now at schools like DHS Westville, uh, we’ve got in Wellington where we actually put hubs in those schools.

[01:27:34] And those schools, uh, hubs have been growing a lot, you know, putting kids in, in that need to do school differently, so they’re no longer, you know, as rigid. And obviously again, a lot of the sportsmen. So we’ve got some amazing sportsmen at our schools there at BGA in the, in, in those schools. So they wear the uniform, they do everything.

[01:27:51] They just do their education differently. So it’s amazing. And, uh, now we are working with a lot of public schools in Portugal and so on. We actually, we’ve got schools in Spain, in, in Switzerland, um, in the uk. Ipswich High, mal High, uh, then Mozambique in Namibia. So it, it is just been amazing. You know, the things that we’ve been able to do, we in Kakuma refugee camps with 30 kids that will go to 300 kids now.

[01:28:14] So it’s, it is been incredible. And you know, as Coach G said, in the end, it’s about impact. You know, like you, you fall in love with this and, and when you read things and you see how some kids are so worried and they think it’s the end of the world, and we keep telling them this because, you know, if you think about, uh, every conversation a parent has now with their kids, they tell, oh, this Ukraine war, it’s probably the third World war.

[01:28:36] There’s, you know, middle East conflict, it’s gonna get bigger. You know, the, the, the US is going crazy. And, you know, and I always keep telling them, it’s always been like this guys, don’t worry about it. You know, when I was growing up, we had, you know, the Middle East conflict was going, we had the Cold War.

[01:28:51] It was going, uh, we had, you know, uh, the ozone layer. We were all gonna get cancer and die. You know, it was cream and long shirts where you, uh, we had Y 2K problem. I dunno if you remember that. But the 2000 was gonna come in, everything was gonna end. And then, uh, you know, the earth was gonna get cold. It was gonna freeze up.

[01:29:10] Where the day after tomorrow, New York, frozen. And now we all gonna cook, you know? So I tell them, don’t worry about those things. Worry about what you can do and all that. And I think that’s what BJ has been. It’s been about each one gets their path, each one does what’s best. They all work together, so mixed ages from 12 onwards.

[01:29:26] So, you know, kids aren’t competing, they help each other. We’ve got this little Aristotle, um, AI that connects kids to each other. So if, you know, gaffer is super good at this, he’ll help flip with that. And, um, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing. And you’ve got kids in other countries helping each other, in other schools, helping each other.

[01:29:44] So it’s just been incredible. So that’s, that’s, that’s my aim. Uh, I’m back South Africa now and, um, in Jan and knocking on more school doors, you know, so I haven’t given up on Pole Gym. I’ve been there twice, so I’m gonna be knocking on that door again. Haven’t got to gray yet. Uh uh, we’ll get there as well.

[01:30:01] But it’s, it’s great Now, you know, we had Pretoria boys the other day going out to go see DHS as a hub, you know, so that was incredible. So it’s all these kinds of things that are now happening. So yeah. So slowly we are getting there.

[01:30:17] And, and my two Guinea pigs did. Okay. You know, my one Guinea pig’s at uc, Berkeley. So he’s there doing politics, philosophy, and economics. And my other one’s at, uh, Emery Riddle doing aerospace engineering. So those two came out well, and my daughters still at BGA at 16 and we’ve told her she’s not going anywhere.

[01:30:35] So she’ll stay with us as long as we can. But, uh, you know, and, and she’ll now go with me to South Africa and then to Mozambique. So she’ll go with me and my wife and she gets to also experience things, see things. And that’s again, education. You know, it’s a, yeah, it, it’s amazing thing.

[01:30:54] Um. Yeah. Um, your education, education is the key, um, whether, whether you learn it in a scrum or whether you learn it in a school. Exactly. Exactly. And some guys should learn, you know, education in a scrum and others need to do it at school. It’s the truth. Exactly. Yeah. Because you’re

[01:31:13] not gonna get that scrum guy to do the school and the school guard, then they’re not getting into a scrum, you know what I’m saying?

[01:31:18] So it’s different,

[01:31:21] uh, strokes for different folks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, ghetto, you know, to, to to to move a bit, you know, full circle and, you know, the lessons you, the lessons you learned from, from rugby and, you know, um, and you do very well at, at conveying it to, you know, out, out to the world. And I, I salute you for that.

[01:31:46] That’s, that’s, that’s very good. That, you know. Where do you feel, where do you feel is, is. Is, is Coach G going next? You know, what is the, what is the unfinished story?

[01:32:02] Guthro: Well, that’s tough to say. You know, obviously, uh, I’ve got ambitions, um, flipped. Uh, I want to, I want to coach at the highest level. I wanna be a forwards coach. I wanna be a manager of a team. Uh, I have that abilities, I have that skill set. That’s why it was important for me to. Make a shift and, uh, and, you know, change.

[01:32:22] I need to reset course and put myself out there. But like I always tell, um, the players, you know, you need to have a plan A and a plan A. So, you know, so my one plan A is, uh, make, still making stall, chasing a dream of, uh, becoming an elite level coach and coaching at the highest level, not as a scrum coach.

[01:32:42] That’s something I’m trying to move away from. The only, uh, how can I say the upside and the downside is that there’s so many coaches that wanna learn more about it. There’s no r resources available for it. So I’m actually in the process now of doing a six week cohort with, uh, about 13 coaches worldwide at different levels, which is unbelievable.

[01:33:01] But we as Coach G going and why am I, why I did this full on rebrand of the show? Why am I starting to refer to myself as Coach G is not because I’m looking for an identity, it’s not because I’m looking to speak about myself in a third person. It’s about sharing my journey, sharing my journey as a human being, as a player, as a coach.

[01:33:24] There’s been times of down and out. I mean, if I have to reflect back in the day, you know, you know, when I was a player, there are certain things I’d done, what I, which I could have avoided. You know, sometimes we parted way too much and we had late nights. I wasn’t taking care of myself. And I look at myself today, I hardly drink alcohol.

[01:33:42] Um, focusing on my sleep. I do meditation, I do journaling. Uh, I’m focusing on my cognitive load during the day. I have the ability now to identify what task I should be doing in a day. And, you know, I think where I’m going, I’ve always set myself this vision in two years time. I want to be in a position where I can impact people to a state that they can achieve great things.

[01:34:09] And ideally that would be in a rugby team, if that’s not the case. That will be in life. Mm-hmm. That will be in the corporate space that will be offering programs to people to become more resilient, to overcome those obstacles in times of adversity. And, and that’s what I’m passionate about, that, that’s why I’m in this space.

[01:34:31] This is why I’m on podcast. That’s why put posts out on social media. You know, I, I put things out there because I wanna show people that we as rugby players, we are human beings too, and we are not perfect. And by playing in front of a hundred thousand people doesn’t make us special. Yes, we got a special skill set, but it’s no different to Tim what is Bolt with BGA, which I think, congratulations brother.

[01:34:57] That’s unbelievable. It’s amazing what you’ve created and you know, everything. Considering we are dealing with the anxious generation at the moment. So where is Coach G going? Honestly. I have an idea, but that destination of the second plan A has not been determined because I’m driven by achieving something great and great not to the sense of a monetary value.

[01:35:23] Great. In something that, I just read this, I just listened to this. That’s exactly what I needed in my private community, coach G and Level Up, I get millions of, not millions, but I’m of exaggerating now, but loads of messages where players would say me, that’s exactly what I needed to hear. You know? And it’s kind of like continuing to, to help people.

[01:35:45] ’cause I’ve always said this, the one thing, one of my biggest regrets of being abroad and not being in South Africa is that I can’t help fellow South Africans in person. And, and, and this is a way for me to share my message and to share my journey with the hope that it inspires them, that it allows them, it’s okay not to be okay.

[01:36:08] I mean a depressed state. Uh, I’ll be honest with you, there was potentially times, times in my career where I was probably bit depressed. There’s always a reason why you pick up weight. I mean, I take now the last, uh, month, but I made the mistake of launching, launching two courses at the same time. What an idiot.

[01:36:26] I was under the pump the whole time, but it was brilliant. I was enjoying it. Started trading les’s, picked up weight, but people need to know that life throws. We all have our personal battles, let’s be honest. We all do. Whether you lose a loved one, whether you have a loved one that’s ill, something bad happens to you, you lose your job or you get diagnosed with, it will be all have challenges and that’s where it’s important.

[01:36:51] We need to be able to reach out to people. And I, I really want to create this accessibility to myself as a human being. And I, I can’t speak to everybody personally, but through my message, through the messages that I receive, through the content that I create, it’s about giving people the tools from us, not just my personal experience, but from the guests there, from the people and from the knowledge that I’ve accumulated.

[01:37:18] Anything is possible. And I always use this example, um, when I was in 2010, um, we were staying at the Lenon Hotel in Cape Town, and I remember my dad, he attended a prayer meeting in, um, in one of the poorer areas in Paul. It’s called Chicago. So it’s like, it’s a bit sketchy, it’s a bit dangerous. And he shared with me, not in 2010, but years later, he said to me, you know what?

[01:37:45] I attended a prayer meeting years ago, and. I walked into the house, there was nothing, there was no food. There was not even bread. There was a fridge. It was empty. Where these people prayed for you for one hour, someone who was sitting in the calendar hotel, eating three courses a day, sometimes going for second or third helpings.

[01:38:08] And how is it possible that someone with nothing or with almost zero in the house can pray for someone that has everything? And Jesus just saying that gives me goosebumps. And that made me realize my, my purpose in life is not business. My purpose is not life about creating a brand. My purpose in life is about creating something and leaving a legacy that what I’ve done in my career and I’ve made my mistakes, that I’ve laid the path for people to follow their dreams.

[01:38:41] I’ve laid the path for people where they know they have that strength. Within end, all we gotta do is we just gotta knock it. You gotta, sometimes it might take years before you even discover that you have these abilities. And, uh, that’s why I’m passionate, and I don’t think that answers your question of where Coach G is going.

[01:39:00] But I’m telling you, coach G’s gonna be consistent. Coach G’s gonna be showing up every single day for himself, for his family, for the people that he, that supports him. And, and in my unique way, trying to make a difference and the impact in the world where we do things, do see that certain core values are going out of the window.

[01:39:19] Where we do see, and I’ll be honest with you all, where they’ve actually originated as well as a coach. We as coaches sometimes tend to say the new generation, they’re different, the new generation, uh, they don’t have the same mental toughness or they don’t have the right focus points. They focus on their properties, they focus on this and traveling abroad and all those things.

[01:39:41] I’m like, okay, but what did we do to educate? Yeah. What did we do to educate them? So like, this is how it needs to be done. We expect them to perform, we expect them to perform at the highest level, but we’ve kind of skipped a few beats by not giving them the steps. And, and I think that’s what I’m trying to do is giving them the tools, giving them the steps so that, you know, they too can, um, you know, yeah.

[01:40:06] Do something great with their lives, not just as rugby players.

[01:40:09] Justinus: Yeah. That’s awesome. Goro. Yeah. I mean, that’s amazing. Amazing. Um, so we only have a few minutes left and we have this tradition of allowing to,

[01:40:19] Tim: could I come into this? ’cause I received a, a message Yeah, of course. Last night, um, from one of my dearest, dearest friends, Lauren King.

[01:40:27] So he was, we played football together in primary school and he works with me, he’s, uh, student affairs. Okay. And, uh, sorry, are you guys there?

[01:40:38] Justinus: Man? That’s awesome. God. So, that was a great answer. I think I’ve lost

[01:40:43] Tim: it. Yeah.

[01:40:44] Justinus: That in that south awareness, trying to reconnect, open the door a little bit, leave open the door and it, and vulnerability of, of looking through that range.

[01:40:56] So am I

[01:40:58] Guthro: now. I think it’s important to have that ability, do a bit of a self different time to time, but also, you know, acknowledge sometimes you know what I’m not doing well and, um, you know, having people around you to speak to, you know, people that you trust and people that you can confide in, you know, not complaining.

[01:41:15] There’s a difference between complaining, confiding into someone and, uh, sorry Tim, you got

[01:41:20] Tim: cut over me. I’m gonna try this again. So I got a message from Lauren King. I played football with him in primary school. Uh, he was the biggest fan, rugby fan. Lions. I remember him crying when y Beton when, uh, Y Bear didn’t get the curry cup.

[01:41:35] It was like proper tears, all this. And, um, he’s the guy that, uh, we found. The The Legends tour. The Legends tour to Portugal, which you guys are gonna be invited on. Okay? So try have a bit of time for four days of us treating you guys like superstars again, you know, some golf prison visits, all these things with Gavin Ridge’s, legends there.

[01:41:56] It’s amazing. So, uh, and he sent me something that I think, you know, uh, uh, coach G touched on different generations and all that, and today’s world, we, you know, we, he, he wrote this, and I just would would like to read it. It’s probably about a four minute read. Yeah. But, um, I think it, it, it, it, you know, being you guys from rugby and all that, and obviously you’re gonna have rugby fans, this could be very interesting for them to listen to.

[01:42:21] So it’s called Embracing the Legacy. While the greatest springbok team must honor our storied history, let’s admit it, it’s a glorious time to be a Springbok rugby supporter. With the UN success of our team, conversations inevitably turned to the greatest ever spring box site. Recently, TV broadcasters have been buzzing with the theme, the setting lineups and legends.

[01:42:43] But here’s Mark gr. It feels like the spring box rugby history only began in 2002. Judging by the criteria used in these selections, I always thought it started back in 1891 when our proud green and gold legacy truly took root. As a young man raised in South Africa, also on the east end, I was utterly passionate about Springbok rugby.

[01:43:02] It consumed me. I devoured biographies and alman acts, poured over old films and VHS tapes and eagerly to elders recount the Epic series from the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. It frustrates me every time I see greater Springbok teams picked without a nod to the pioneers, the Grand Slam winners of 19 31, 32. Who conquered Britain in Ireland with unyielding dominance.

[01:43:26] The 19 30 17 that claimed our only series victory on New Zealand soil. A fe unmatched to this day, the 1949 squad that whitewashed the All Blacks four zero or the 1970 Warriors who Triumph three one over Brian low walls, formidable all blacks against all odds. And let’s not forget the 1987 Rugby World Cup team that never was.

[01:43:50] We are indeed in a golden era of Springbok rugby domination, but those earlier sides ruled world rugby for decades forging the unbreakable legacy our current eras carry forward. In fact, at the time of our readmission to international rugby in 1992, the spring box held a winning record against every opponent they’d faced, including New Zealand.

[01:44:12] These historic teams endured unimaginable hardships, months away from home grueling schedules of up to 42 games and weeks at sea on boats just to reach their battleground. Isn’t that the essence of a true springbok resilience forged in fire? You see, being a great springbok isn’t solely about raw athleticism, how high you jump or how fast you sprint.

[01:44:35] It’s about impact how you honor and carry that sacred jersey through triumphant trials. When we select these all time team, all time teams, we must weigh the profound influence of icons like Yupik Kika, the very first spring box superstar who dazzled in the early 19 hundreds, or Henry Miller, the Reversionary forward, who ran like a back blazing trials in 1949.

[01:44:58] If Ville Media had existed, then his electrifying style would’ve rivaled Jon Romo’s impact as no one ever witnessed a Ford with such speed and flare. And what about Bernie Osler who shattered records by scoring a world high 14 points in a single test against New Zealand in 1928? This is like you got a point for scoring.

[01:45:18] Yes, comparing a player from 2025 to one from 1937 is challenging, but that’s precisely my point. Today we often limit greatest to what we’ve witnessed firsthand ignoring the deeper tapestry of history that makes it basically the best we’ve seen, not the absolute pinnacle with passion for our heritage burning in my veins, I’ve taken a stab at selecting the greatest BBO team of all time, drawing from films I’ve studied, books I’ve absorbed and matches, we’ve lived through it’s subjective field by love for the game and our nation’s rugby soul.

[01:45:48] Perhaps you’ll disagree and craft your own lineup. That’s the beauty of it. Let’s celebrate differing views and keep the debate alive. Long lived Springbok rugby for the next 134 years and beyond and the team goes as follow if I can say it. Ya. Don’t get too upset if, Hey Rob Lowes. You don’t make it, Rob.

[01:46:07] I’m sorry,

[01:46:09] but that’s a legend that comes to Portugal.

[01:46:11] He is a, he is a good man there. So we’ve got at one o, Durant at two. Uli. Schmit at three. Yep.

[01:46:30] That’s perfect. Don’t worry. Okay, so we’ve got at one O, Durant at two. Uli Schmidt at three. Chris Cock at four. Evan Elizabeth at five. Prayer at six. Pete Haing. Seven Peter Detoy at eight. Annie Miller, captain at nine. US. From the rest at 10. Benny Osler. At 11. Brian Ab Banner at 12. Y At 13. Donnish H at 14 at 15.

[01:47:03] HO Valez. On the bench, the bomb squad 16, Malcolm Marx, 17 boy, low 18, the Beast 19. Victor Matfield 20. Cul Berger 21. Donnie Craven, 2200 Pollard and 23 John Gainsford and Coach Rui. Right? So this was Long King done yesterday, so it’s just, uh, amazing. So do it. Let me put this out there. All right.

[01:47:34] Justinus: Awesome Tim.

[01:47:35] Okay, so to end up guys, we want to just give you the opportunity to ask each other questions. So Tim, if you want to ask coach GA question and then Coach G asked them and then we can finish up.

[01:47:46] Tim: Yeah. Coach, are you available to come coach the, the Portuguese rugby team? Man, I think we need some help. We’ve been going a little bit downhill there since we got, uh, rid of, unfortunately, I think he was so amazing for.

[01:48:00] No, but, um, yeah, I think, you know, my coach will, uh, my question obviously for the coach there is, um, you know, um, is the drive, uh, the drive, it’s obviously not easy, you know, but, um, what, what is your main, main one? You’ve touched on many, you know, yourself, your family, and all that, but what is it the first thing you think in the morning when you wake up at.

[01:48:27] Guthro: Yeah. So, um, you know, that’s a tough one because I, I think family’s right up there, you know, um, I’m really trying my best to provide something for my family, you know, something that I can leave behind for them. Not just like we mentioned earlier, type of inheritance, but more like a legacy. Yeah. You know, something that they can, can, can be proud.

[01:48:45] But what, what drives me, it comes down to the message that I shared earlier, is really impacting people. Really impacting people through what I’m sharing, you know, um, getting on a mic, showing my true self, sharing my mishaps, what are mistakes that I made and that, that I’m a human being and we’re all human beings at the end of the day, and it’s all great that we receive these accolades, but.

[01:49:09] That shouldn’t define us, and that that resonates with something that I recently read. You know, the jersey doesn’t define you. Your title doesn’t define you. You know, it’s about who you are. So the day when I’m no longer on this earth, I still want people to talk about me, not because of what I achieved on the rugby field, but through the values that I shared for the difference I tried to make and the sharing this knowledge.

[01:49:35] And now I’ve had so many people in my community say like, coach, why are you sharing this for free? Like, yes, I do have courses, but on a daily basis I’m pitching up. I’m trying to help people, helping coaches, helping players, because I wanna power empower them with the knowledge. I wanna give them the tools I didn’t have, I had to discover a lot of those things by myself.

[01:49:54] But to answer your question, and I think first and foremost is my family. And you know, then it’s leaving. So something behind for the new generation, that’s the most important thing, that they still have something to look back at. This crazy coach who started out as a scrum coach and transformed into something completely different.

[01:50:13] Tim: Good to flip. I don’t know. You know, you’re a natural networker. I was on one call with you and all of a sudden I’ve ended up here and uh, you know, so I think you’ve got a lot to offer. And, um, I just want to know from you, do you think the best is still to come? You know, do you feel like you’ve got a lot, something big is coming?

[01:50:36] We, we were lucky. Me and RAs camper, we had, um, uh, coach France Lua, and he used to ingrain that us in, in our, in us. Every day. The best is yet to come. Um, okay. And a hundred percent live by that motto. Every day Is that, you know, best is yet to come? No. Right. Good stuff, coach

[01:50:55] Justinus: G. Yes. Uh, question for Tim.

[01:50:57] Guthro: Yes, Tim.

[01:50:58] Um, you know, I think, I think the big question I have, if you like, with everything you spoke about, you know, learning coaches, and I think you’re taking education to another level, you know, as someone that has achieved great things in business and has bold something from scratch and somebody that has been ahead of the, his time ahead of the game.

[01:51:18] What advice would you give to rugby players, you know, in terms of turning a concept or an idea? Into a actual sustainable business. The reason for that is because a lot of rugby players have these great ideas. They have the network, they have the connection, but where they get lost is actually turning that idea into a sustainable business.

[01:51:44] Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that’s where a lot of that’s what I’m also trying to do with my podcast with Coach G, is that, that players learn the, the, the, the basic skills in terms of who they should surround themselves with in order to achieve that. ’cause we have seen in the past that players put their full trust into certain people, but then things just go sideways.

[01:52:07] So what advice would you give for a retired athlete, you know? Yeah. That wants to put something, there’s got this brilliant idea, it’s credible, but how to actually transform it into something which is actually a real business.

[01:52:19] Tim: Yeah. Look, you know, the first thing you said, you know, I think players do need to be sponges, like you mentioned.

[01:52:24] You know, they need to go out there and have experiences they need to. Spend time with business guys, uh, time with, uh, anyone who’s doing well at something. You know, if it’s an influencer, spend time with him. Learn, just see, and, and, you know, be humble about it. Uh, and don’t worry about asking stupid questions and all that, you know, like everyone’s happy to help someone if they coming from the right place.

[01:52:47] I think then going forward is, you know, do a bit of homework. You know, make sure that whoever you’re gonna deal with, it’s like, you know, getting married, you know, you wanna know who that person is. You don’t want to have to learn afterwards that, that, and, and be open, like be ready to hear bad things. And then.

[01:53:04] Don’t just ignore them, because a lot of people get told and then they still ignore it and, and try it for themselves, and then they get, you know, a sad story in the end. Um, and then it’s about, it. It, it’s not like you can’t gamble, you know, you really can’t gamble. So there are things that work. You know, you mentioned property, some get into property.

[01:53:22] Well, that’s a safe one. You know, you, you’re gonna put some cash into that and, and everything makes sense and you go step by step and it works well, then you, you can go to the next level and do another one and do another one. But, um, you do need good people in your, in your, in your corner. You know, you, you, you, you can’t go into a fight by yourself and you know, you’re not going to fix those cuts above your eyes.

[01:53:44] You’re not gonna see them, you’re not gonna be there, et cetera. No one’s gonna have a towel for you and so on. So it, it’s, it’s those basic things like you’ve gotta have good people with. You and then you know, if you’ve got a major passion, listen to people. If they’re telling you it might not work, you know, do a little bit of research.

[01:54:01] Make sure someone will pay for what you want to give them. You know, you mentioned earlier as well that you wanted to coach everybody, but not everybody wants to be coached. So you need to find out what do they want and listen, like listen a little bit, you know, because you got this one mind and you know that’s how it’s gonna go.

[01:54:18] ’cause that’s how you ran through everybody, you know? But now you can’t just run through everybody. You need to have that, those people that are gonna be there to help. So I think it’s, first we a sponge. Secondly, find good people in your corner. Um, and there are good people out there and there are people that you know, truly are in a stage in their lives where they’re not trying to like take advantage of you.

[01:54:38] Like they actually want you to have a good story. You know? And I think more and more our athletes. Uh, we, we are taking more responsibility that there has to be a, a story afterwards. It can’t end at rugby, you know what I’m saying? It’s, it’s gotta be or at any sport. And I think, um, as well, I think there’s now funds starting up for, for sportsmen that they can invest in and those funds are doing it properly and getting into businesses or buying shares, et cetera.

[01:55:05] ’cause not everybody has to be an entrepreneur. Not everybody has to do that. You know what I’m saying? Some people you can invest and, and, you know, get returns and, and do that well, and that’s great. And then use your time to open your network and, and wait for the opportunity. Don’t be in a rush. You know, you’ve got the rest of your life, you know, so I think that’s what I’d say there.

[01:55:26] Justinus: Awesome. Awesome. Thanks. Thank you very much, Tim. Great question Coach G. The one thing I would add is I’m busy listening to this amazing audio book, um, which is called Who Not How, and I wish I learned about that earlier in life. ’cause often I’ve tried to always. Figures things out on my own. And sometimes the answer to the problem is finding the right person to do it with rather than trying to solve it yourself.

[01:55:48] Yeah. So, yeah. Thank you very much guys. That was an amazing conversation, really. I, uh, learned a lot and, um, just spending time with you and having these deep conversations and thanks for being vulnerable and thanks for, for embracing the conversation and leaning in. We really appreciate it. And winning the GA away game is really just about that.

[01:56:07] It’s how do we lean into the challenges that life throws at us so that we can win the away game and, and come out hopefully victorious on the other side.

[01:56:16] Guthro: Uh, thanks for having us guys. Really enjoyed it and nice to, to meet you, Tim. Definitely to touch base with you. Unbelievable man, guys. Yeah, thank you guys.

[01:56:24] Really, really

[01:56:25] Tim: look forward to this and look forward to having you guys in Portugal as well, you know, so Definitely. Yeah, look, visit in Portugal. Thanks Kati. Thanks Tim.

[01:56:32] Guthro: All. Thanks guys. I sure I Rob, enjoy. All right Jonathan,

[01:56:37] Justinus: you just want to stop the recording and let’s just check the uploads and then we’ll start again.

[01:56:42] Sorry Sean and Rob, we’ll be one more second. Wow. How that

[01:56:46] Tim: for legends there. Sean Thompson and Rob Lowe. Unbelievable. Are we now gonna start this all over again? And, and Mr. Rob Lowe. He is a good fan of the Portuguese Legends tour to come here and he.