Episode 7: Follow your instincts

Rob Louw (00:09.537)
Okay.

Justinus Adriaanse (00:14.063)
Thank you, John. Well, good afternoon and welcome to Winning the Away Game. Today we have something really special lined up for all our listeners. Something I’ve been looking forward to for three weeks or four weeks since I spoke to Sean for the first time. We have two of the biggest legend in South African sports on here today.

to give us insight into what it takes to winning the away game. I’m literally getting goosebumps as I talk. I’m so excited. Welcome Flip. Are you ready for a spectacular episode?

Rob Louw (00:44.398)
you

Flip (00:49.836)
Justine as I said, two incredible legends today. We are interviewing a springbok legend that is as well known in the water as he was for his flair on the field with 19 test caps in an era where test caps were far a few between the legend himself Rob Lowe. How’s it?

Rob Louw (00:50.158)
Good.

Rob Louw (01:10.806)
How’s it Flippy? How’s it? Jocenas? And hello my brother, my second brother, Sean.

Flip (01:13.026)
Thank you.

Shaun Tomson (01:17.276)
Justinus Adriaanse (01:19.541)
With Rob, we have another South African legend starting out in Durban and taking over the world’s oceans all over from Hawaii to California. Sean Thompson, not just a sporting and surfing pioneer, but a business legend. Sean, we are here at your mercy to learn from your wisdom.

Shaun Tomson (01:42.254)
It’s awesome to connect with you guys and I’m so stoked to be on the show and Justine, when you said to me, you you wanted me to come on the podcast and who I should get, which guy I should get, the first name that popped into my mind was my second brother, Rob Lowe. He was a legend in our household. I don’t know which my dad loved more, was rugger or surfing. And of course,

Rob Louw (02:03.406)
Yeah

Rob Louw (02:11.338)
You

Shaun Tomson (02:12.206)
In our era, the god, the guy who changed Raga, was Rob Lowe. Rob was like the king. I didn’t know if my dad liked more Rob Lowe or me.

Rob Louw (02:16.91)
Yeah.

Rob Louw (02:22.1)
Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (02:22.402)
Hahaha

Well, that would be applicable then to a brother. Which one of the sons the father likes more?

Rob Louw (02:28.926)
that’s

Justinus Adriaanse (02:33.59)
Well guys, mean, it’s such a privilege and I can’t wait to delve deep. think we love to talk about this arc around winning the away game and I think a big part of that journey is the adversity we face and how that adversity we face in life shapes our future and the people we become. So really looking forward to delving into that. But before we start with that, we always like to start with the same question.

I’m looking forward to the answers today more than ever before. That question is for you as personally. What is your favorite spring book memory? Sean, you want to take it first?

Shaun Tomson (03:16.814)
You know, when in 95, the World Cup in 95, I had just moved. I’d been offered a job by Patagonia in the United States, and I’d just flown out from South Africa, landed in Los Angeles, and it was about, the game was on, it must have been about three or four in the morning, and a friend of mine and I found a pub in Santa Monica.

And we were the only two South Africans in the pub. was filled. It was… We were the only two guys there. And of course, you know, we had our Springbok jerseys on and they were giving us so much heat. that game was super special, you know. And I think…

You know, that game is significant, I think, for a number of reasons, because it shows how sport can bring a country together. And, you know, during the dark days of apartheid, people still kept playing rugby, because rugby was a way to bring people together. And if we’d have stopped playing rugby, then…

The World Cup in 95 would never have happened and people seem to lose sight of that, that maintaining continuity of sport, regardless of political structures, it’s super important. It’s super important and certainly it was wonderful to see how Ine Elson Mandela used that to bring that country together. for me that was an iconic moment, an iconic moment.

Justinus Adriaanse (05:00.064)
hope.

Rob Louw (05:00.878)
I can basically echo that. I think it was fantastic. The whole situation where the crowd, well, you know, were 80,000 people there. when Mandela, I mean, well, the whole crowd just chanted, know, Mandela, Mandela. Who would have ever thought in 95 that would ever happen? But just echoing back again, we played a test against England in 1981 there. Now that was…

That was how many years before that? No, sorry, 84. So that was 11 years before that. And Errol Tobias was playing for us at fly-off. And Errol Tobias scored a try in the corner at Ellis Park. And I mean, whole of Ellis Park stood up and cheered for him. So that was, you a people look back and they say, you know, before 95 it was really bad and dark.

But just showed you that at that stage there was already, there was a really positivity towards change in our country. And that was, if you think about it, it 14 years before that. Incredible, surely. mean the whole Ellis Park just stood up, absolutely stood up. I actually got on tape. I got on tape and I saw replay it just to get the feeling again. know, it all came over and the crowd just going crazy. So that, and being on the field with

Well, you know, I became the godfather of his son in 1981 on the tour He made me his godfather with son, Eroki So yeah, so that was like the baby steps to the breaking down of the door Like you guys did in the surfing and the same with us, the breaking down of apartheid and the opening of the doors, which is now gone

That’s unbelievable. I mean this this sprint box society is just next level and I Mean, I mean there’s problems now recently that we all know about the red cards in our I don’t know you know what’s happened recently, Shaunie. They’ve every match have been red card in us Look, look the latest one with even wasn’t nice to see but I Reckon that Savica will dominate wall rugby for the next

Rob Louw (07:21.134)
20, 30 years because we’ve got so much talent coming through now with players of color who are so hungry and it’s just survival mode. mean the same as America, NFL, the basketball. These guys are hungry and unfortunately us whiteys aren’t as hungry anymore as these folks are. I mean so many of them feed their families, it’s unbelievable and they’re just coming through.

It’s so great to see.

Flip (07:54.665)
Mm.

Justinus Adriaanse (07:54.896)
But Rob, I’d love to delve a little bit into that 1981 tour. I think Flip’s dad was there with you guys and you’re in New Zealand and all of this chaos going on. And I think I read you actually were roommates with Errol on that tour and you weren’t necessarily popular for the way you embraced the diversity in the team. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Rob Louw (08:05.475)
Yeah.

Rob Louw (08:09.07)
That’s right.

Rob Louw (08:19.746)
Yeah Yes and no, mean, I mean obviously the guys from the north didn’t they They were I mean they questioned, you know, I mean there’s anyone hey, that’s the beginning of You know, you know, I mean that was really deep apartheid to a certain extent They didn’t really understand, you know, you know, I mean Errol came well been a very strong Christian number one He’s a very strong Christian Roman Catholic

and a very well spoken guy and a very together guy. So the guys from the north, I’m talking about the Blue Bull boys, they actually, and effectively that side was the guys from the north, Tuckies, Bull area and the guys from the south, us and the Salonbosch Marti boys. So we had a different attitude towards the colors, the players of color.

So it was quite tough for these oaks to suddenly have a playoff color amongst them. But they learned quickly. really learned. mean, learned. mean, well, Errol is a great guy and such a special guy. And I think a lot of these guys learned and sort of learned from Errol. yeah, I mean, that was really the start of it. know, the start of… And Doc Craven was behind it. Doc Craven was just an absolutely incredible man.

And he had the vision and you know that well there was a start you know in actual fact 79 we went on tour we went on a barbarian tour we had eight eight players We had eight white guys eight colored guys What they only call them color anymore? eight eight white guys eight colored guys and eight black guys Corsa guys that came from Eastern Cape and we went on the tour barbarian tour I mean, I mean played against we played

We played in Wales, played in England and all over. We went on a tour. Obviously big demonstrations against us and everything. But that was basically the breakthrough tour that everybody could realize that we could all play together. And the players came through. no, Errol De Bruyce came through there. So yeah, that was like a breakthrough. 79 already, which was fantastic. But Doc Craven was the guy who basically pulled the strings and ruled the roost there.

Justinus Adriaanse (10:42.547)
Wow, that’s amazing and before his time, obviously. Okay, so let’s go back to home ground. Sean, tell us a little bit about your exposure to rugby and growing up in Durban and surfing and everything as a young boy growing up on the beach in Durban.

Rob Louw (10:46.242)
Yeah, he was.

Shaun Tomson (11:03.85)
Yes, so I caught my first wave on the beach in Durban at a place called the Bay of Plenty. It was right in front of where we lived on the Marine Parade on the beachfront. you know, surfing just gripped me from that first moment. I stood up on my first wave. My dad had taught me how to swim. My dad had been a champion swimmer in his youth. You know, he wanted to win a gold. The Second World War got in the way of that, and then he came back.

and started practicing again for the upcoming 1948 Olympics and then was very badly attacked by a shark while he was surfing out at a place called South Beach, couple of hundred meters from the beach I grew up at. So he had ripped his arm from the shoulder all the way to the wrist. So he was never able to compete or swim. He could kind of swim a little bit, but you he taught me how to body surf and swim and then surf.

and I got that first wave and surfing just gripped me. like to think that I surfed in my first surf competition at the same place where I stood up for the first time. And I joke that I was an instant success. I got third in my first event. There was only three of us, but I got my third. But I loved rugby. I was at…

Clifton School, was a well-known preparatory school in Durban. Then I went to Carmel College. I’m Jewish, it was a Jewish school. So we spent a lot of time under the posts arguing like who let the wing in, who let the hook in. We used to just get thumped and we used to love playing rugby. And my father was a major, major rugby enthusiast. He had six seats.

Rob Louw (12:41.454)
Ha ha ha!

Shaun Tomson (12:57.31)
on the 50 at Kings Park and he would go to every single game, every single Saturday afternoon, no matter how good the surf was, the whole family tripped off to Kings Park. And my father was from the era of, his hero was Keith Oxley. Do remember him Rob? Legendary fly off, Keith Oxley, Trixie Trouter, Tommy Bedford, we loved Tommy Bedford and then…

Rob Louw (13:18.542)
Of course. Tommy Bedford? No, Tommy Bedford? Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (13:26.774)
You know, in the early days, there used to be this expression. I don’t know if it’s super politically correct, but they used to call it Chalukkachayot. And Sid Nomas was the guy, and Sid dated my cousin. you have the Friday night dinner, and Sid was there. We were stoked out of our minds because he was the first sort of rugby hero that…

Rob Louw (13:37.666)
Ha ha, yeah. That’s true.

Shaun Tomson (13:56.204)
that we had a lot of fond memories of being on Kings Park, watching the games. We’d watch every single test. We’d watch the All Blacks come, we’d watch the Lions come. And then we’d watch the club matches, collegians, the local, was Durban High School old boys. We were fully into it.

Brother and I, we’d be like, sometimes we’d be touch judges. We just had the greatest time. Rugby was as much a part of my life as surfing. And then, you know, when we first met Rob through my dad and watched him play, you know, that we loved that open attacking style, you know what I mean? That running the flare, the lung, the lung hara. And…

Rob Louw (14:47.628)
Ha ha ha!

Justinus Adriaanse (14:47.835)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Shaun Tomson (14:50.539)
And the of this first time like the surf vibe connected with the rugger vibe. So yeah, lot of great, great fond memories growing up in Durban.

Rob Louw (14:52.588)
The Skollies, the surfing Skollies.

Flip (15:02.009)
That is excellent, Shorty. Rob, growing up in Cape Town, Weinberg, Stellenbosch and then province afterwards, when? Take us back, when did you know, growing up as a kid, that rugby is the thing you’re going to become a professional in?

Shaun Tomson (15:03.627)
You

Rob Louw (15:26.574)
I didn’t turn professional because I played for Kenya in the test match. Just understand that. Until I turned to rugby league. Until I turned to rugby league and then I made some money eventually playing for Wigan of Northend England. In the mud and the squalor. No, no, So my dad was a referee. My dad, he one or two provincial matches.

Flip (15:31.585)
Yeah, but a house costs 20.

Rob Louw (15:55.535)
but he was a referee and we just grew up in a household just rugby crazy. Playing with balls, rugby balls by the way, playing with balls so young. And then I think when I was 16 years old, we were playing obviously Weinberg, Sax, Bishop, Saronovos, Paul Reuss, Pape Bozai.

And we were unbeaten actually, we were unbeaten for English school. We had had an unbeaten run in the 13th and 14th 15th playing against all the top African schools here. Under 16th still unbeaten and then there was a guy by the name of Peter Kirsten who was a great cricket player, probably one of the greatest, who was playing for Sax. And Sax beat us, my dad was a referee, I’ll never forget it, at Weinberg. then I realized that that was…

Well, you know, there was potential and Doc Raven had seen me play my first Kramer week at Salem-Washington and I didn’t get a bursary in those days. I mean, there was no money. don’t know if they gave money or It was the amateur era, so I don’t know if they were allowed to. But Doc Raven basically reached out and asked me to come to Salem-Washington. That was a big honor just to be… And yeah, and so I saw playing cricket and I was…

doing everything, mean, and obviously surfing, which has always been my love and still is my love, it sure knows. I mean, I still, ugh, I reckon if people ask me, I’ll never forget, surely there was a sport illustrated that came out one year and they have in the front cover. I remember the front cover, they had me posing in the front cover and they asked me, what was your greatest sport, know, sport and occasion?

Shaun Tomson (17:46.283)
you

Rob Louw (17:51.106)
and I said to them, having an eight foot wave at Jeffries Bay. I don’t think many of the rugby aficionados would be very happy with me. But yeah, it’s still my passion and I saw Sean surfing at the Spurs Surf about, right, or something, at Musenberg and we hooked up as buddies and then he said to I’m gonna send you sponsorship clothes.

Shaun Tomson (17:53.932)
That’s funny.

Shaun Tomson (18:13.268)
Yeah.

Rob Louw (18:21.666)
And from there we’ve just been real good friends and buddies and it’s just great. It’s incredible how, and you know, flip, the respect amongst top sportsmen, whatever sport you come from. I you know the sacrifice that the guys have gone through and the journey that they’ve gone through to reach the top, whatever sport. so, yeah, there’s always that…

mutual respect which is fantastic and I think it’ll always be there. That’s fantastic. But so that’s why I’m so happy to catch up with my buddy. You know, yeah, we sort of speak on Instagram now and again. We Instagram each other and we post the comments and Robbie was living in LA. He lives there probably about three months of the year. Normally with his fiance, he was a top model. But then now he said, that’s it, no more.

Flip (18:57.633)
Mm.

Rob Louw (19:18.712)
So when she goes across it now, he’s decided that he’s staying young now, she can go by herself. So yeah, and then, Sorry, Shaunie.

Shaun Tomson (19:24.629)
Yeah, but it’s, you know, that’s a good point, Rob, that respect amongst sportsmen, you know, it sort of, it transfers over no matter what sport it is, like you say, you know, we have that commonality of passion and purpose and sacrifice, you know, for the love of what we’re doing. you know, like when both of us in our careers, it wasn’t like we were in the money era, you know what I mean? We did it.

Flip (19:24.705)
Buh.

Shaun Tomson (19:54.559)
We did it because we loved it. I remember getting to Hawaii, I 300 bucks, man, and 150 I spent on a car that was gonna last me three months. I bought this old wreck. All I needed to do was drive like 20 Ks between one side of the North Shore and the other. At the end of the season, I just left the car on the side of the road with the keys in it with a note, good luck. There was no money, but we had the same passion that the guys do.

Rob Louw (19:59.128)
Thank you.

Flip (20:17.313)
you

Shaun Tomson (20:24.008)
today and that respect between sportsmen is great. I went, I don’t know if you remember Rob, I went with you to Newlands. You introduced me to Groot Skolk and it was like going to a place with not so much of the mayor but the president. The love that people had for you in that stadium Rob. was like, it was so wonderful to see that.

Rob Louw (20:34.499)
That’s right.

Shaun Tomson (20:52.808)
that incredible amount of respect and it was just good to be around and I see that warmth. was wonderful. know, rugby has that camaraderie, surfing has that camaraderie, even though we’re not in a team sport, there’s still that connectivity and camaraderie and commonality between people that have that passion, that go for it. Because you know,

Rob Louw (20:59.628)
Lecker

Shaun Tomson (21:21.148)
You might not think that surfing is a contact sport, but let me tell you, you know Rob, when a 10-foot wave lands on your brain, it’s major contact. mean, okay, maybe it’s not like two hookers going head to head literally, but it’s the pain and suffering and dangers there. So, you know, we have that commonality of having experienced that like radical impact and that like…

Rob Louw (21:25.304)
Haha.

Shaun Tomson (21:51.551)
You know, that passion, that passion. When I come roaring out of a big tube, you know, that’s for you the same as, know, roaring over the bloody trial line there.

Rob Louw (22:01.041)
Exactly, exactly. was asked one day, I was asked by, on television show, they asked me why do you love surfing so much. And it was a bit of difficult situation, but suddenly I was just accosted with this question. And I think there’s a number of things. And the one is obviously adrenaline. I mean, we’re adrenaline junkies, without a doubt.

Flip (22:02.289)
That’s excellent.

Rob Louw (22:27.694)
And then another thing is just the contact also said, you’re right. I I broke my ribs about six years ago, surfing still by point. I came off, I just fell, fell down the wave. I fell off and then I broke two ribs. So it just shows you, it was a fairly big wave, wasn’t, but I mean, it just shows you what these guys go through. They surf pipeline. I mean, Sean’s…

know, photographs of them. I these guys are just unbelievable, you know, and just seeing the guys, what they go through. And that’s why I got so much respect because I know, you know, the adrenaline trip that they go through and the ballast he was at, you’re going to be a big ballast, let me tell you now. These guys have got big ones. They’ve got big guns. And I mean, it’s unreal. Yeah. So I’ve always and I still love the sport. mean, I’m I think about you, Shawnee, but I get in the water.

Shaun Tomson (23:16.945)
Hahaha!

Rob Louw (23:25.08)
for two hours and I pedal and I probably have four waves. I come home stoked and my wife says, what’s in the last chowder of the car? I had four waves. You know, two years before that I used to come up and you had 20 waves and now I get stoked for four waves and she says, I just said, listen, lovey, watch out tonight. You must watch out. I’m on a high.

Shaun Tomson (23:30.279)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Hahaha!

Shaun Tomson (23:39.944)
Yeah, exactly, I know. Exactly.

Shaun Tomson (23:50.186)
I love it, love it, Ron. I love it.

Rob Louw (23:54.958)
So that’s a great thing about surfing and then also I mean getting in the water and you got well in the old days you know we always had these great whites hanging around and obviously yeah and the whole situation of just being out you know open just loving, loving, love just being in nature I mean I love nature it’s fantastic it’s a special sport

Flip (23:56.321)
you

Flip (24:20.897)
That’s this is excellent Rob you mentioned the Donnie Craven and Donnie Craven has impacted so many incredible rugby players and people you know in South Africa legends that came through my dad included. Dad included you know

Justinus Adriaanse (24:22.242)
Amazing. Yeah, this is so awesome.

Rob Louw (24:40.046)
Yeah.

Flip (24:43.669)
refined the Kalari Buiki into the good human that he is today. Tell us a little bit about the impact that Dali Kevin had on yourself.

Rob Louw (24:55.752)
First of all, I must tell you some naughty stories about your mom and your dad. How’s that? here we go. So, Azul lived about five flats away from their mom or dad’s in Selenbosch, Harchhof. Okay, now you can imagine Flip, his father.

Flip (25:01.761)
Yeah

Justinus Adriaanse (25:02.594)
Of course, that’s why we’re here!

Rob Louw (25:22.766)
He weighed about 140 kilograms. He’s a big man. He’s a big, big man. don’t mean to flip for them ever, surely, but he’s the biggest crewman ever. Is that right? Flip? Yeah. He’s a…

Flip (25:26.582)
Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (25:32.169)
haha

Flip (25:33.313)
He was, he was, but I think the guys these days are, you know, they are under the footy when they get born, so I think they’re a little bit bigger now.

Justinus Adriaanse (25:40.13)
You

Rob Louw (25:40.322)
That’s right, you’re right. And Karen, your mother, is also a phallic, she’s a big lady also. She’s a big buddha tani. I remember they had a small little bed, a small little bed, and then she used to come and kaya in those days.

Flip (25:50.367)
Very, very tall, yeah.

Rob Louw (25:57.838)
And she, I don’t know how, those two slept on that damn bed, but even so, he was asking one day what they did, or how, what they did. It was unbelievable, we still always laugh about it. Flippin’ Corrin, that one little small bed, unreal. No, Doc Craven, well, I don’t know where he even started with the guy. was an absolute mentor. I mean, he had a double doctorate, as most people didn’t know.

And he was just a visionary. was an incredible man. I think, so looking back now, I mean, you would walk into the room, or also walk into a… like a big hall of a thousand people, two thousand people. And as you walked in, that whole hall would just go quiet.

He just had this incredible impact. He just had so much presence. was just incredible. He coached me. They actually helped me at Salamosh and coached me. It was just incredible to have a guy that could hold your hand through all those days and the early days of the injuries and stuff like that. And then, he became like my second father in a way. I was very fortunate having an incredible man like him.

who was so well respected worldwide. Probably if you talk to any New Zealander or Welshman or whatever and you say Doc Raven everybody knew about him. He was Mr Rugby worldwide. And he had the vision of certain stuff. He was the first guy to dive past, first guy to do certain stuff. And South African rugby, I believe, was led by brains like him. And then we went through a period

with South African rugby, I shouldn’t say that they didn’t have brains, but they didn’t have good coaches, without a doubt. I mean, we’ve always had the athletes and the players. We always have had. And we just haven’t had top coaches. Yair Rives, Rashid Rasmus, a flawed genius, without a doubt. mean, Flippy would know he’s a flawed genius, but he’s a genius. And he’s…

Rob Louw (28:22.894)
just got this side, mean this side is just incredible. I what they achieved now on this last tour is just, I don’t think there’s any side in the world. mean the New Zealanders try and compare their side, I think from 2011 to 2015, but they can’t. mean this side consists of 45 great players, whereas their side consisted of probably…

10 great players and 5 sort of normal players and reserves not great. These guys have got 3 teams at this stage. We’ve got 3 teams of players and they just keep on coming. It’s unbelievable. We have got so much depth and it all comes from vision that Doc Craven basically had and now Rossi’s brought it through without a doubt. Amazing. It’s actually amazing. But yeah, Doc, I can only echo, I mean…

Flip (29:11.433)
Mmm.

Rob Louw (29:18.742)
Every person that’s met him and your dad also Flippy I’m sure he’s got the same situation. He’s just he’s just an absolute incredible man and a genius and Yeah, he had such a big impact on all of us as a mentor amazing

Flip (29:27.553)
My very first book, very first book was Doc Ravens ABC of Rapier.

Rob Louw (29:36.31)
Yeah, that’s right. I actually filed that in university.

Flip (29:40.702)
Alright.

Shaun Tomson (29:42.545)
Hmm

Rob Louw (29:43.278)
They wanted me for another year at Stellenbosch so they failed me. Tell that to everybody, this is my Rotmiler.

Justinus Adriaanse (29:44.234)
Well, it’s-

Justinus Adriaanse (29:49.236)
Well, they wanted you to play more rugby, Yeah. Awesome, Rob. And isn’t it amazing how those mentors early in our careers shape the person we become and how we grow? Sean, did you have mentors in the surfing South Africa or did you have to go to Hawaii to find them?

Shaun Tomson (30:07.208)
No, my big mentor was my father. You know, he loved sport. My father loved sport. He loved sportsmen, but particularly, you know, he came to love surfing, which was something. Yes, he surfed when he was, you know, when he was young, but as surfing started to progress, he was sort of right at the forefront.

of being a visionary. created the longest running professional surfing event in the world. It was called the Durban 500. He started that in 1969. And that is still going today. It’s called the Belito Pro today. But it’s the longest running pro event in the world. And every year he would bring in surfers from overseas, from Hawaii and Australia, to help uplift South African surfing.

So, you know, he wasn’t only interested in my career, but he was interested in the career of surfers generally in South Africa. You know, I think he make surfing a lot more respectable. You know, back in my era, in the first day, people thought surfers were boom smokers. Boom smokers. boom crook, yeah. So I think…

Justinus Adriaanse (31:22.463)
Poor Braddock.

Rob Louw (31:23.832)
Harukas.

Shaun Tomson (31:27.44)
You know, once he created this professional aspect to surfing and then you had an amazing guy down in Cape Town, a guy called Basil Lomburg, who really had had great inroads into amateur surfing and suddenly surfing became respectable. And then I started doing well and it would get a lot of, it got a lot of publicity in the press because there weren’t that many sportsmen in those days succeeding internationally.

Rob Louw (31:37.346)
Ayah.

Shaun Tomson (31:57.609)
You know, there was terrific stuff. You know, it great sports internally, but I was lucky enough to be involved in a sport in which even during apartheid, I could still compete. so, you there was a lot of, you know, we to get a lot of publicity and consequently surfing grew and grew and grew. But my dad was a real mentor. You know, he really looked at sport with a great deal of honor and integrity. You know, he would say to me,

Son, there’s nothing worse than a sportsman that cheats. To him that was like the cardinal offense, a sportsman that cheats. And he would talk to me about the philosophy of winning and losing. He’d say to me, son,

When you win, win like a gentleman. And when you lose, lose like a man. From the very, very first time I started competing, would never ever complain about a judge’s decision. That decision, you would say, that decision is carved in stone. You will never change that decision. You will just humiliate yourself, do not complain, just accept it and move on. And you know, as an athlete,

Rob Louw (32:54.914)
Dr. Craven, Executive Director.

Shaun Tomson (33:17.564)
You know, you get pounded, you get pounded and you lose. But I always just moved on. I never dwelt on that loss. Do you know what I mean? And that came from my dad is just when you win, win like a gentleman, when you lose, lose like a man and that decision is in stone. So that way, you know, I would never get into that sort of downward cycle of despair that many sportsmen get into. You know, they lose and then they dwell on that loss and they can’t figure out how to get the passion and the mojo.

to go out there and clear their minds and go on to the next event. And then, you know, even right through my career, he gave me advice and encouragement, but he was never a director. I was the director. Did you know what mean? When I was out in the lineup, he wasn’t whistling on the beach or with flags or telling me which board to use. That was my responsibility.

but he definitely gave me the encouragement and the moral fortitude. know, this is, can you imagine, I’m in the army now, I’m 17 years old. My commandant’s given me time off to compete in the Gunston, and it was a huge event. You know, we used to get 30 or 40,000 people on the beat. I mean, maybe even more, it was a massive event. And I’ve made it into the final, and I have a good final. And in those days, it wasn’t instantaneous judging. You know, you didn’t know…

The judges knew the result, but you would have to come in and you’d all get up on the podium and there would be 30,000 people there and then they would announce the result. And I knew I’d done well, okay? And there’s six of us in the final. So the six of us are standing up on the podium and I look up and my dad, there used to have a big tower on the beach. don’t know if you’ve seen it Rob, but there used to be like a big, they called it the Gunston Tower and it was orange and it had Gunston on it.

Rob Louw (35:09.539)
Yeah.

Rob Louw (35:13.806)
Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (35:14.76)
And I look up at my dad, my dad’s in the tower. And I go to him like, dad, how have I done? You know, I’m standing here with a six-five, and he goes like this to me. He gives me the thumbs down. And I go, oh, what a bummer. And then they announce the results. And in sixth, fifth, fourth, second, and winning, Sean Thompson. And I run up there and I look up at my dad, and my dad is hysterical with laughter. You know, it’s like such a huge joke to him. And you know, it taught me a lesson that winning,

Rob Louw (35:35.918)
Bye.

Shaun Tomson (35:44.68)
is super important, but it’s not everything. Do you know what I mean? And I think as a sportsman, if you have that attitude that it’s everything, it puts so much pressure on you. Yes, it’s important. It’s important to give it everything, but it’s not everything. And if you lose, there’s going to be another opportunity. And you know, I always had that attitude and I think it gives you that sort of stillness. It gives you that…

Rob Louw (35:58.882)
does.

Shaun Tomson (36:14.753)
that feeling, it’s like an anti-desperation feeling. Do you know what mean? And I think as a sportsman, when you’re desperate, that’s when the stress is, that’s when you’re not gonna actually perform at your best because the stress will be counterproductive. So my dad was the biggest mentor and coach to me.

Rob Louw (36:35.32)
Can I interject there? So 30,000 spectators were there 25,000 were women, bane after Sean Thompson All those bookies were Seanie Seanie Sean They were all bane, because you know what, and that’s so true in those days, surfers were known as Dacharokas

Shaun Tomson (36:44.721)
That’s funny, Rob.

Justinus Adriaanse (36:45.883)
Ha ha ha ha!

Justinus Adriaanse (36:51.037)
Hopefully…

Shaun Tomson (36:53.383)
That was funny.

Rob Louw (37:05.102)
It actually came from… and they all thought we all smoked Dachshund. I I’ve never touched this stuff. I’m sure you never touched this stuff either. Every sausage calls me and the guys don’t call me whatever it is. They all think I’m on this stuff. I’ve never ever been on this stuff. But even so, it’s amazing. But Sean was the first surfer really to be on the ball boards.

Shaun Tomson (37:12.197)
Me neither.

Shaun Tomson (37:19.995)
Me too, yeah.

Rob Louw (37:29.454)
on the billboards in New York and walking around there strutting, strutting his vizique and everything and all the bookies ran after him and even on the beach. That’s O’Clair, that’s him. That’s Amanda. Remember, remember Shawnee, you and myself, we should go to the clubs myself and Shawnee walking and we should go to Cape Town and cement our hair back in those days.

Shaun Tomson (37:43.557)
It was fun.

Shaun Tomson (37:50.727)
The Clevver’s in Cape Town.

Shaun Tomson (37:56.614)
Yeah, we were the killers, man!

Rob Louw (37:58.798)
Yeah, we stuck gel and put gel on our hair and we still walking in the clubs there. And yeah, we still sliding, we didn’t walk, we still sliding. That was a good day. That’s it, like a breaker. But that’s yeah, yeah, but Sean was the first guy to, to, to show that surfers aren’t just dacharukas and, and, and mean, there you have it, there you have it.

Shaun Tomson (38:01.288)
yeah. Cementa.

Yeah. We used to bowl in like a briaca.

Rob Louw (38:28.876)
So it was fantastic, yeah.

Flip (38:29.377)
That’s a question. Rob, you were one of the first guys to actually go a little bit against the grain and went overseas to play first in Italy and then later on, the switch to Ligue 4 Wigan caused a little bit of a stir, a little bit of controversy. Take us a little bit through those decisions. What did it take back then to actually go overseas and play over there?

Rob Louw (38:32.622)
the hot water.

Rob Louw (38:47.811)
Yeah.

Rob Louw (38:58.818)
So short was in the Navy also, weren’t you? Or were you in the Army?

Shaun Tomson (39:02.789)
I was in the army,

Rob Louw (39:04.11)
I was in the Navy, remember that? You must all salute me one day, you don’t salute me. You salute like that, we salute like that. So because I had a degree, in those days we would go to Otsuren, in those days, if he had a degree.

So obviously at that stage I was an up and coming future rugby player and the Western province said no you must stay here. So I joined up for four years in the Navy at Wingfield, very far away from the sea but even so I was a Wingfield sports officer. So I used go every year and go and play for four months. I used go and play in Italy.

I was going to play in a little town by name of L’Aquila which is about an hour and a half drive from Rome up in the mountains and so every year I used go there and then I used come back and ask you study, how was that? So the University of L’Aquila used to invite me to across it to study extra upon my degree.

So I was studying in Italian, but I was playing rugby and skiing. How’s that? So for years and years I actually played there. Off-season and we still… I was back there now again in February. So we got a very close national affinity with L’Aquila and Italy. And we go back, national yearly we go back.

Myself and think Tien Storford were the first guys to go across, pretty much to go across and play there. And we were being paid, what was it? I was being paid in those days. I was the highest paid rugby player in the world. I was being paid 10 Rand. Hold on.

Rob Louw (41:00.366)
10,000 Rand a month, how’s that? In 1981, how’s that? That was real money, gentlemen! So we were the first guys that were paid by the Italians and then obviously 95 had turned professional but we were being paid under the table in those days. the whole of… I mean, there were…

Shaun Tomson (41:03.463)
That was big. That was big.

Justinus Adriaanse (41:06.358)
That was real money, man.

Rob Louw (41:28.91)
The top rugby players in the world were playing in Italy those days. And we all played there. So every New Zealander, every Australian, everybody would go there and play for the clubs. And then get a little bit of money. And from that money I eventually built my first house. I was thankful. So that got me going. It’s amazing. And then obviously, mean, know, rugby league, was 30 years old.

And at that stage the All Black Tour was cancelled. The guys wouldn’t tour. was 1985. Yeah, that was cancelled. The Lions Tour was cancelled also. And I just said no, ways. I’m 30 years old and I want to experience life. I want to go on an adventure. I watched the guys play at Wembley.

Justinus Adriaanse (42:09.434)
85.

Rob Louw (42:29.214)
Two top sides were playing Wembley and I watched the final and I just decided that’s it. I’m gonna go across and play a new game. Completely new sport, completely different sport. yeah, so I was lucky enough to go. I spent two and a half, three years playing for Wigan. Myself and Ray Mort went across. And it was an incredible experience. It was an amazing game into the Lions Den because those guys hate rugby union. You gotta understand. I mean they all come…

They all get signed at 16, 17 years old for like four years for their pittance and it’s played by the real rough people of the world. You can’t believe it. mean the Oaks…

Shaun Tomson (43:11.822)
You told me they were coal miners.

Rob Louw (43:13.998)
coal miners, many coal miners, cotton mill workers, coal miners, most of them had no teeth. You will never believe the guys we played with. Our captain and our vice captain had done time, well, many of the players had done time, most of them. Yeah, you can’t believe it. So you come from playing for Stellenbosch University in South Africa where you’ve got three quarters of the guys that have got degrees and suddenly you’ve got these icks that have…

They’ve all come out jail. So, yeah, it’s a tough game. Yeah, yeah, amazing, amazing, amazing game. yeah, you know, you know, played I was lucky enough to play against Australia in Australia and came out to play against Wigan and I played against Wally Lewis. don’t know if you know the top rugby players in Australia and I played against that great side. It was came on as like a the bomb squad for 30 minutes.

Shaun Tomson (43:46.384)
with no tits.

Rob Louw (44:12.91)
came on the field and played against Australia. that was an incredible experience to go and play there. But the greatest experience, sorry, just getting back to Italy was being in Italy and just learning. The Italians teach you so much. They teach you so much about family, about values, familial values, about the love of the family. Very similar to Jewish families, surely. Very much close, sort of bound families. it’s just…

It was an amazing experience and that’s why I love game back there. I remember our first game we played Now the Italians don’t like playing away from home can tell you now and the French don’t either they do that I think the French don’t like playing away from home either but the Italians They would play at home and win by 60 points and then they would go away and play in Catania or somewhere in Sicily and they lose by 80 points. That’s the way they are and and we

We played against Rovigo. Rovigo had a hell of a strong side. They’d won the championships. Went up north, played against them, and we beat them. And I remember walking to the change room, and all the guys were crying. mean, know, us Buddhist Yankees, us Africans, what the hell’s happening? these guys. And I walked in and I was also crying with them. So I was crying with them, and I just realized, I mean, that passion.

Shaun Tomson (45:24.326)
You

Rob Louw (45:38.68)
that those guys and just unbelievable was incredible experience Italians are a special nation I must say and it’s so good to see them doing well now which is Lekker

Shaun Tomson (45:48.346)
Hey Rob, so how did the South African Rugger establishment treat you after you made the decision to play for Wigan?

Rob Louw (46:00.59)
So I’m still banned, can you believe it? I mean they’ve unbanned everybody. I’m still banned, they never unbanned me. But Doc Craven, it’s quite amazing when I got back, Doc Craven got hold of me and he said to you know, I’ve always known you to be an adventurer. And he said, I knew that you would do something like that. So Doc knew me well and he said, I knew you would enjoy it and go across and make it an adventure.

And that’s what I liked. Obviously, he was angry with me that I didn’t play against the Cavaliers, which was like a semi-all-black side. But he was still proud of me, think. Well, they’re going to cross and play in league and doing well there.

Shaun Tomson (46:50.275)
So what was the, did they just ban you from playing rugby in South Africa because you had broken the amateur code and it’s still in place today?

Rob Louw (46:59.406)
That’s it. Yeah. Well, they never unbanned me, but mean, but now obviously professionals, so it’s a different game now, you know. But yeah, so, yeah, they just banned us from everything. I mean, we couldn’t coach, we couldn’t do anything when we got back. were… Yeah. Yeah. But then Ray got back and I think he helped the 95 guys with fitness or something like that and he got involved. So, I mean, obviously, you know, I’ve always come with that thing where they still…

Shaun Tomson (47:15.842)
Ray as well, you and Ray.

Rob Louw (47:28.29)
I’m still banned but I mean obviously I’ve unbanned us now with the guys being paid big money and they’ve been paid big money surely these guys Flippy you know you know being involved with the rugby boys they get paid cooler money now

Flip (47:40.972)
Yeah, the boys these days, every year when we started playing, the older guys said, no, you guys are earning so much money and now we’re hearing what these current guys are earning. But they should get paid more if you compare to other sports and how many people I think the stats on the Springboks French game was over 9 million people watched the game globally. Yeah, it’s quite impressive.

Rob Louw (48:05.846)
That’s it.

Justinus Adriaanse (48:10.326)
Sean, so at some stage you also decide that you need to spread your wings and go conquer the world outside there. Tell us about that decision and what was it like landing in Hawaii and building a sport and a life and a career all at the same time.

Shaun Tomson (48:29.733)
Yeah, the first time I went to Hawaii was I was 14 years old. It was actually for my bar mitzvah present. My father took me. You my father loved, my father loved Hawaii. He loved, his hero was a Hawaiian legendary swimmer called Duke Hanamoku, who won multiple gold medals in multiple Olympics. He’s like the greatest Hawaiian sportsman of all time.

And my dad being a champion swimmer, know, loved you can after the shock attack.

My father was sent to San Francisco for arm surgery and then recuperated in Hawaii and met the Kahane Moku family, met his heroes. And I like to think they helped him on the road to recovery. You can imagine you’re an athlete, you’re going for the Olympics and then suddenly your career is done. Your career is over in one bite. But my father never ever exhibited bitterness.

Rob Louw (49:20.75)
you

Shaun Tomson (49:32.454)
He never ever had that, you know, would have, could have, should have, you know, I could have been a champ, I should have been a champ. He never ever had that attitude. And I think, you know, he instilled that in me. And I like to think that maybe during his recuperation period in Hawaii and meeting the Kanamokus, he just had this brightness for Hawaii. And then as a surfer, Hawaii was our Mount Everest, you know, it was the place.

that you had to go, you you had to make a name for yourself in the biggest, most challenging, most dangerous waves in the world. That’s what all the great surfers would gravitate every winter season, which would run from November to January. That’s where all the big surf contests were held. And I’d had, growing up in Durban, I had pictures of Hawaii in my bedroom. And I knew I always wanted to go there. I wanted to challenge those waves and I wanted to win over there.

I started going at a young age, 14, and then I went every year all the way through to 1989. mean, at 15, my cousin Michael and I went there. I was 15, Michael was 16, a young Margate guy, Anthony Brodovitz was, you know, we were 14, 15, 16. Our parents just let us go to Hawaii by ourselves. We stayed in a caravan on the beach and, you know, it was like a wild time.

Rob Louw (50:38.988)
Wow. I didn’t know that. Gee.

Rob Louw (50:50.222)
yeah, and…

Shaun Tomson (51:01.605)
You know, then I started doing well at a young age. I won my first major pro when I was 19. It was the biggest event in the world at Sunset Beach and huge surf. I was sort of the outsider and won. And then the next year I won the most famous event in the world, the pipeline masters. And at the same time, there was a group of Australian guys who also had this vision that one day we would be able to make a living from going surfing. And like you mentioned there, Flip, that

You know, each year you say, you know, the next generation, you guys are going to benefit. And that’s what’s happened. It’s just been an evolution. And today the young guys are making millions. know, surfing has, they reckon just on a participant level, there’s about 24 million surfers around the world. So, you know, it’s grown just in terms of participants, but the attraction and the allure of surfing is very, I think is very culturally.

relevant and it’s created, it’s given people the opportunity to create good businesses. mean when I was young, when I was 23 years old, I started Instinct in Durban, which grew into, it was one of the biggest brands in South Africa and then we sold in 13 countries. It was wonderful to be able to create a business out of what I loved. I called it Instinct.

Because the best moments in surfing like Rob knows are riding inside the tube and the best tubes happen when you’re operating on instinct. And instinct to name that I always felt crosses over into all sports. It doesn’t matter whether it’s rugby, cricket, baseball. You know, when you’re operating on instinct, when you’re operating in that state of flow, it’s like you can do no wrong. you’re going to, you are going to, one can stop you. understand? You’re in the zone, So.

Rob Louw (52:46.766)
Yeah, you’re right.

Rob Louw (52:52.512)
In the zone. Yeah. Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (52:56.728)
You know, the name had a lot of resonance and then I sold it when I retired. But I recently bought it back and you know, we did a little launch in South Africa, we a little launch going in Australia and we launched here in the United States a few months ago. But you know, one of the best things and I’m sure all you guys will attest to this as well, is that you know, my father had such a big influence on me and not just me, but he helped so many other athletes, so many other surfers.

realize their dreams. You know, if a guy was battling for money, he’d give them a board or a guy needed to go to a prize giving and didn’t have any kit to wear, my dad would, know, buy him some clothes. He just was very uplifting. you know, when I had instinct, I had the opportunity of sponsoring other surfers to help them realize their dreams and mentor them. And in 1985, how about this? I had sponsored a young Australian at the time called Tom Carroll.

Rob Louw (53:53.773)
Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (53:53.829)
So 1984 under Instinct he won the world title. And then 1985, I led the tour the whole year I was in front until the very last event that Tom beat me. So here I am. I’m competing against a guy that I’m sponsoring as well, which was very bittersweet, I’ll tell you that. was very bittersweet. But it was great to be able to use my experience and mentor.

Rob Louw (54:05.868)
He beat you, that’s right, remember that!

Justinus Adriaanse (54:16.061)
Ha ha ha!

Shaun Tomson (54:23.298)
other guys and create an impact that way as I’m sure that Rob, you’ve mentored and inspired and helped many guys and what you did with Errol and you know, that was a big thing that you did not just for Errol but for the country and for the team too. All the guys from the bloody Northern Transvaal and the Free State and

seeing this, that this was the future and how these little impacts that you can have on a person to person basis create this ripple effect. You you drop a stone, create a ripple, build a wave.

Rob Louw (55:05.218)
Yeah, you’re right. Brilliant. True, Shauny, fantastic.

Flip (55:09.759)
Yeah, that is… I was 13 years old when I was allowed my first Instinct t-shirt. And I wore it religiously.

Rob Louw (55:17.815)
Hahaha.

Shaun Tomson (55:21.058)
Hahaha

Rob Louw (55:21.847)
haha

Unreal. Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (55:26.653)
So Rob, obviously go full circle then for your rugby career. You playing rugby league and at some point, you know it’s getting towards the end. Take us through that decision and how it culminated and how you started over once rugby was over.

Rob Louw (55:48.494)
Yeah, so obviously playing the north of England with beautiful weather and palm trees and lovely beaches and everything like that. And there was a fantastic pier in Wigan, a fantastic place there with the Kalkat Macy’s in them. And what happened was

Shaun Tomson (55:57.348)
You

Justinus Adriaanse (55:57.875)
Or what like a whey?

Shaun Tomson (56:02.084)
Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (56:05.604)
I’m

Rob Louw (56:15.086)
The Australian side actually offered me a They offered me quite a big contract. They just started two new sides in Australia, I think a new castle and something else and they offered, they said, okay, well, you when you come, they want you, they want to sign us up for big money. And I was hurtful. I was just, sure enough, when you have spent two and a half years in the north of England and…

And I mean really, our winters are warmer than their summers. I mean it’s unreal. And with those, with those very Neanderthals. You shouldn’t call me Neanderthals, but they were Neanderthals. Except for, interesting, Joe Lyden, he was ex-Union boy, and he coached, I think he played, he coached the England 7th team. And there was a guy, Sean Edwards, playing with us, who now coaches

in the defence of the French team. So he was on our side and then there also was the guy who plays the fly off now of England. What’s his name? But his father played with us. Farrell’s father played just after us but the English fly off now.

Flip (57:11.595)
France defense coach.

Justinus Adriaanse (57:24.934)
Marcus Smith.

Flip (57:28.673)
Feral. Feral.

Justinus Adriaanse (57:31.095)
George.

Flip (57:34.006)
Okay.

Justinus Adriaanse (57:35.666)
George Ford.

Rob Louw (57:36.942)
So Michael Ford played with us. So was quite interesting. We were a whole mix of guys and yeah, so and now I just I Was longing for Cape Town. I couldn’t wait to get back 32 years old and I thought go to Australia now for another two three years and get bashed. Let me tell you now rugby league That’s look. I mean unions of tough sport, but but league

I mean the guys, you can see how they look. mean really, it’s a real tough sport. And I was just, don’t know, and I came back, came back, brought my money back in those days where the fin ran. You know what the fin ran was, surely? The financial ran. So what I did was I stuck my money away in the aisle of white or white.

And then did the contract with the Wigan and then I brought the money back the Fyn ran and those days was 70 to the pound there was 1987-88 there was like a so I brought it back I bought my property and I started my business. I got into know, we’re going to building boats inflatable boats and then yeah, and then I

got involved, quite a big factory I set up in Cape Town and then started racing to augment my adrenaline trip. And then yeah, I was racing, I actually designed the double nose boat. You know, there’s the double nose boat. Well, we were the first guys to, well, I was the first guy to design it. My wife actually told me, take the nose away.

Why the round nose? I took it away and it’s just an incredible thing, actually amazing. We can actually surf for that thing, it’s amazing. And then I had that hell of an accident. The guy rode over me and cut me to pieces. My arm, I was lucky to survive that. And then eventually got out of, at that stage the Yen was too strong against another Rand and I was bringing in boats. I was doing boats engines and trailers, you know.

Rob Louw (59:59.953)
And I just decided let me get out of here and my brother took it over. So my brother is still running it, fair enough Robbie Duck, so I went from there and then I went into Thatching, how’s that? So I’ve been running, I’ve been running the thatching company now for 30 years And yeah, I have about from at times I’ve 10, 12, 15 up to 25 to 30 workers working and we’ve been doing quite big contracts

And but now I’m cut for how’s that that’s a good off your comments word for that I’ve got now I’ve actually myself my wife had decided Durban bull and Cape Town’s just become you will not believe the Shawnee you cannot believe what’s happened is there’s been a semigration I mean everybody’s moved down to Cape Town this gene Absolutely, I mean you can’t drive anyway. It’s just cars and cars and cars and We’ve made a decision now. We are

Ducking, we’re going to Stilwell, we’re going to live there. I’ve got a little place there where you’re to go and spend time there. I will then travel up and down the coast and surf. Where I am, it’s quite close to everything. Vic Bay and Muscle Bay and everything and Jay Bay. Surf there. And then go overseas and ski. I love my skiing. My snow skiing. we want to spend… Shauny, you’re also 70, aren’t you? 70. Can you believe it, Bruce?

Shaun Tomson (01:01:03.211)
Nice.

Shaun Tomson (01:01:24.471)
Yeah. Pali!

Rob Louw (01:01:28.174)
So yeah, so at 70 so you know what I Think it’s time to enjoy our lives, you mean, yeah when the person works and you work and and I’ve seen so many people of when they 72 73 they suddenly realize I can now in a retarget together. How’s it?

Rob Louw (01:01:53.24)
Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:02:05.294)
Isn’t that amazing? Thanks for sharing Rob. so Sean, you’re out there in the world competing, winning titles, creating a profession along the way and running businesses. Tell us about that journey from being at the high of surfing and then going on after you decide you can’t do that anymore every day.

Shaun Tomson (01:02:35.51)
Yeah, so, you know, think Rob and I, you know, we have a similarity of stories that we both had these sort of cataclysmic occurrences in our life. mean, Rob had two, essentially, you know, one with his injury with a boat and then the other with his battle with cancer. And, you know, a lot of people know that I lost, my wife and I lost our beautiful son. But before that, after I retired,

I retired in 1990 and

I decided that I’d given it everything I had surfing. I’d hit it so hard. I was about seven or eight years older than the other youngest guy on tour. I was the biggest guy on tour. They were all pretty much small blokes. And the tour had moved towards…

a lot of events and a lot of small surf. And when the surf was really small, just, you I wasn’t that good, you know, to compete against the 18 year old when the surf’s two to three feet, it was just, it was becoming increasingly difficult. And also, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t that stoked to surf in those events. So decided at the beginning of the year and

1989 that I would retire. I would run out. would compete in all the events that year. So it was a great year for me because at every event people did a little, you know, they did a little celebration for me and, you know, thanked me. So it was a wonderful way to end. But I was committed to finishing my career. And then that was it. There was going to be no comebacks. You know, I’d given it everything I had. So I never, I never looked over my shoulder. And I think

Shaun Tomson (01:04:23.02)
For an athlete when they decide to retire, I think it’s really important that not to live in that world of would’ve, should’ve, could’ve. It’s just like you give it and then you stop and then you move on to the next thing. So for me, there was a couple of things I wanted to do. I’d never completed my university degree that I’d been studying for at Natal University. I had three credits outstanding. So 1990, I go back to university to finish my degree.

And I go, I move back, you now I’ve been traveling around the world, moved back to S.A., permanently back to Durban. My wife and I had gotten married, Carla, Durban girl, we’d gotten married in 1987. Now I had, yeah, we were each old, I had two partners in Instinct. It was myself and this family. And it’s like,

Rob Louw (01:04:53.398)
I was there with Joel. It was with Joel.

Shaun Tomson (01:05:21.44)
must be about February or March of 1990. I’m at university, instincts going well, and my partners and I got into a dispute, and it was really ugly, and they said, okay, we’re gonna, we’ll buy you out. So I went.

what could I do? So it was kind of almost like a forced buyout, okay? So I go home and I walk in and my wife’s there and I say to her, I’m out of instinct. And she turns around to me and says, well, I’m pregnant.

Rob Louw (01:05:44.716)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Shaun Tomson (01:06:04.738)
So talk about a change. So, you know, I sold out of Instinct and embarked on a new project now. You know, I’m to be a dad. And it was quite an emotional time, you know, because I loved what I’d done with Instinct. I loved the imagery we’d created. But I moved on. Do you know what I mean? Like I moved on.

And then

After a few years living in Durban, I decided that it was important for me to use the assets that I had that were very applicable to the surf industry. And the heart of the surf industry was California. And that’s where the most financial opportunity for me was, was in California. So I remember I flew over to California and…

You must remember at that time is there was five of us guys that built and created the surfing professional tour and the surfing industry. We built it just from a dream of going surfing. We built this multi, multi-billion dollar industry and business. And I remember going, now I’m looking for a job. I’d never had a job. I’d always been a pro. I’d had my own businesses. Yes, I’d had sponsorship from different.

company sunglasses and wetsuits and all that sort of thing. But I had never been employed by anyone. And I thought I was quite a catch. Here I was, I the only surfer with a formal university education. I’d helped build the industry and I knocked on the doors of all these famous surfing companies. And not one of them was willing to give me a chance. It wasn’t like I was knocking on the door saying this is going to be your new CEO. I’m just going like, I’m going to move to United States.

Shaun Tomson (01:08:03.489)
I want a chance, I want an opportunity. And not one of them, not one of them would give me a chance. And athletes got to realize that. Let me tell you, you think people are there going to support you when your career is done, you better understand that most of the time it ain’t going to happen. You’re going to be busting down doors in the same way that you did during your sporting career. You’re going to be having to bust down doors.

in order to be successful. It’s not like you have a golden pathway. Maybe today in Rugger it might be a bit different, but the golden pathway to me was a dream. Anyway, no one would give me a chance. And on my last day in the United States, I was up getting boards from this famous surfboard shaper, guy called Al Merrick. And he said, hey Sean, there’s a super cool company.

that’s like 30k south of here that makes great fleecy jackets and the owner’s a surfer, you’ve to phone him up. And I said, well, what’s the name of the company? And he said, it’s Patagonia. Now Patagonia is an incredibly famous company here in the United States, but I’d never heard of them. I said, you know, who’s Patagonia? I said, the only Patagonia I know is a mountain range in Chile. So he said, no, they make cool fleecy jackets. And I went down there the next day and I met the guy I’m meeting.

And as I walk into the HQ, I see there’s a school that’s attached to the HQ. And I say to the guy I’m meeting, what’s with the school? He said, it’s our school for the kids of our employees. I went, wow. What an amazing company that actually has a school for the kids of their employees. And then they showed me through the business and I went, wow, this is an amazing business. I knew that I could both contribute and I could both learn a lot.

from this business. And I stayed there for two years. They flew my whole family out, my wife and my son from South Africa. I actually stayed with them for six months. They were just amazing to me. And I learned a lot about purpose-driven businesses. So for me today, in the new business that I’m in, it’s like purpose is the foundational value.

Shaun Tomson (01:10:30.121)
great businesses and they were a purpose-driven business the first purpose-driven business that I’d ever been associated with because it had always been profit sales and growth you know profit sales growth but now it’s its purpose and learned a lot there and you know the owner would have these philosophy sessions and you know at one of them he said hey Sean you’ve got to understand doing good is good for business how about that for an amazing philosophy doing good

is good for business. So stayed there for two years, then my wife and I went out and we started a new brand. We called it Solitude. And Instinct was about writing inside the tube. Solitude was about escape. we ran Solitude for about seven years. And then we got an offer, just got a phone call from a big publicly traded company that wanted to buy us. And we sold the company and we stayed on for a few years.

Rob Louw (01:11:06.172)
and run the batteries. Sorry. Robbie.

Shaun Tomson (01:11:26.687)
And then just after the sale concluded, I had a new book I’d just written at the publisher. That’s when we lost our boy. that’s when everything came crashing down. And that was the end of that part of my life. And then I had to decide on a new life. And that’s what I did. And let me tell you, every single athlete…

they’re going to do that. And maybe it’s not going to be, they’re going to lose a child, but there’s going to be some sort of cataclysm and you’re going to have to recover from it. you know, Rob recovered from it. I recovered from it. And for me, it’s, you know, there’s a foundational value of resilience and perseverance and hope that surfing teaches you. And I wrote it down.

20 years ago in the form of 12 lines, every line beginning with a well, I called it surface coat. And one of the lines is I will always paddle back out.

So that’s like a foundational value for me. And you know, that’s about perseverance and it’s about resilience, but it’s about hope, you know, that there’s going to be another way, there’s going to be another way for you. So now I lecture across the world. I work with the biggest universities in the world. Last month I was at Harvard. I did three lectures at the Kennedy School of Leadership to the brightest minds in the world.

Kellogg Northwestern, the top business school here in the United States, Google, Cisco, Gap, Disney. I work with the best of the best and I teach about the values that surfing, that sport, has taught me about life. And I’ve come to realize that sportsmen, successful sportsmen, are amazing, inspirational leaders. They have learned about life the hard way.

Shaun Tomson (01:13:34.753)
They’ve learned about life through punishment, through dedication, through discipline. And sportsmen have an incredible responsibility. They are leaders and they got a responsibility. They got great power to influence, positively or negatively. That’s a choice.

Rob Louw (01:13:37.758)
Thank you.

Rob Louw (01:13:57.343)
Sorry, I just see my battery is running low and I don’t know where Robbie’s vanished to now.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:13:57.929)
Thank you Sean, I that’s amazing.

Shaun Tomson (01:13:59.189)
Ahem. Ahem.

Shaun Tomson (01:14:12.545)
I think we’ve lost Rob there.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:14:16.777)
Let’s give him a minute.

Shaun Tomson (01:14:27.316)
Nah, I’m good.

But I’ll tell you what, Justin and Flip, I’d really like to talk, I’d like to mention this surface code, because it’s helped hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people with hope, with purpose, with connectivity. And the world is in a tough place right now.

Flip (01:14:42.005)
Mm.

Flip (01:14:54.111)
Yeah.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:14:55.859)
So as soon as Rob’s back, I’ll set you up with a question around your son and then would you like to weave that in there? Okay.

Shaun Tomson (01:15:03.23)
Okay, let me go and grab one of these because I can actually show it on the screen. Hold on one sec.

Shaun Tomson (01:15:35.412)
So Flip, Flip was your old man, even gröte than grötskalk.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:15:35.625)
Got it.

Flip (01:15:41.634)
Grutzkalk is big, he’s very big. He’s probably a little bit taller than my old man, but my old man is a proper big guy. He’s still probably 200 plus kgs at the moment.

Shaun Tomson (01:15:53.32)
You

Shaun Tomson (01:16:00.957)
Yeah!

Justinus Adriaanse (01:16:01.427)
Wowee

Flip (01:16:02.561)
Yeah, but they strong as an ox, they’re still going. It’s a generation built differently.

Shaun Tomson (01:16:11.22)
Yes, I know man. They were like oxen.

Flip (01:16:15.457)
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, know, because they, when they played back in the day, it was, you know, bar my old man and the Chuditzkalk and was Henny Becker played there and Tjern Stofberg was a big guy as well. You must think what the opposition thought when these guys, they must have thought they left Giants out somewhere or something, you know.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:16:16.713)
yeah.

Shaun Tomson (01:16:32.2)
Yeah.

Shaun Tomson (01:16:45.28)
To be in the scrum against those guys, that’s frightening.

Flip (01:16:48.203)
There’s one of the New Zealand wingers that played against my old man in 1981, Michael Clamp. Actually, works for, they all worked for board riders that you would know. Yeah, so they all moved to Biarritz to play rugby and surf. And then they all, after rugby worked for board riders and either in sales or in packaging or, know, they all had like a little niche.

Shaun Tomson (01:17:02.663)
did they? Okay.

Shaun Tomson (01:17:14.217)
Okay.

Flip (01:17:18.613)
But Michael Clamp always tells a story. As you line up to run out, he’s right at the back and he’s a young 19 year old or whatever. And he looked in the front and he saw my dad’s pants. And the sprint box you have, the white pants, they look bigger anyway. And he saw my dad’s pants and he was just thinking, how the hell should we play against that? Just the size of the pants.

Shaun Tomson (01:17:46.4)
classic. So flip U-based perminity and barrettes.

Flip (01:17:47.989)
Mmm.

I was born in Bermondale and Berwick. I moved down here during Covid. I was up in the UK mainly because my wife is from here. I’m not a surfer so I don’t get in the sea as much as I should. But I’m also very keen to go back to South Africa now. I’ve paid my dues I feel.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:17:51.879)
See.

Shaun Tomson (01:18:17.344)
The Republic of Cape Town.

Flip (01:18:19.809)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll see, we’ll see. What gets me is the weather. I’m a Blossian, so I need to go where the sun shines.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:18:34.071)
It doesn’t sound like Rob can make it back. He’s waiting on his son that’s not there. Maybe Jonathan, let’s just continue with Sean and delve deeper and give him a chance to talk about the surface code and then we can do a full circle and end it there.

Flip (01:18:40.833)
Okay.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:18:57.787)
Okay, you ready Sean?

Shaun Tomson (01:18:59.038)
Yeah, I’m ready.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:19:01.745)
So Sean, thanks for sharing that. mean, think the adverse is Steve Jobs had this amazing speech. He gave a graduation about connecting the dots in life and how it’s very hard.

sometimes connect the dots looking forward but when we stand at the end and we look back

we can connect the dots and a lot of the dots we often try and connect is the adversity we faced and the things that came across our path that was super challenging at the time and I’ve gone through a journey with my own daughter that was ill luckily she’s fully recovered but that was super challenging so I can only imagine what it must have been like for you and your wife when when your son passed away

And now looking back on that and the impact it had on your life and connecting the dots for those events.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:20:07.248)
What’s the story that you tell yourself when you look back on everything?

Shaun Tomson (01:20:17.395)
Yeah, it was a very, very tough, challenging time. You know, you try to make sense of it.

And many parents have been in the same terrible situation. I call it the world’s worst club. The club of parents that have lost children.

Shaun Tomson (01:20:46.419)
And you know, people ask me like, how do you get through it? How do you get through it? And you know, everyone’s got their own path through grief. Everyone’s got their own path to a new life because that’s what it is. You create a new life. Your life is irrevocably changed. You know, in that moment you get that phone call, you know, your life’s, that life is over. Your old life is done. And…

You try to make sense of it, but there is no sense to be made of that loss. So you just try to deal with it. So I’ll tell you a few things that I’ve learned because everyone has a different path. But this is what I’ve learned. Number one.

Shaun Tomson (01:21:37.181)
You’ve got to be absolutely, unequivocally forgiving of yourself and your partner and your child. Whatever’s happened, you’ve got to just forgive.

And that’s a very hard thing to do. Forgiving is very, very cathartic, but also it’s hard to do it, you’ve got to make… Every fiber of your being has to be focused just to forgive. And then you’ve got to accept the finality of it. That’s very difficult, know, that acceptance that, you know, you’re never going to be able to hug and kiss your boy again. It’s very…

Difficult, but you have to accept that because otherwise you spin down into this downward spiral of what if, could have, would have, should have. So that acceptance is very hard. So those two things, forgiveness and acceptance, tough, tough. And no one can really help you with that. I mean, you can see ministers or rabbis or priests or psychologists or psychiatrists.

but it’s self, that is self. And then the things that you can do that can help you is connect with nature, whatever that might be, a walk on the beach, paddling out on the surf, just watching the sun rise or set, just that connectivity to nature, super important for me. Then getting involved in a project or projects that…

are inspiring to you and can memorialize your son or daughter or just inspiring projects. Like, I had a book at the publisher, I shut it down, I didn’t want to release it, then I thought, no, I’ve got to release it. I released my book and I spoke about my book and…

Shaun Tomson (01:23:38.983)
I made a film called Bastion Down the Door that became very popular. So I got involved in these projects and then they gave me the inspiration to start telling my story. And I found that when you tell the stories, you can inspire people. You’re not going to inspire them with data. You can inspire people with stories. And my stories…

when they inspire people, they inspire me too. So talking about my loss and my journey helps me as much as it helps other people. And then get involved with a community group or a group, or environmental group, or a group that helps others. So helping others helps you. In fact, I believe that

When I do my events for schools and universities and community groups and religious groups and prisons, I get maybe more out of it than the people who listening to me. So those are some of the aspects of my journey that have been really helpful. But like I said, everyone handles and deals with that dark path on their own.

on their own timetable and in their own way. And then understand that…

You can smile again. You the sun will rise tomorrow. So you’ve got to maintain the hope. mean, always maintain the hope. Always maintain the hope. You know, the lines from like my surface code, I wrote that 20 years ago, I will always paddle back out. You know, for me, really important resilience, perseverance, and then hope. And then also,

Shaun Tomson (01:25:34.399)
reconnect with your faith, whatever that might be, whatever religion you might be, whether you’re Catholic, whether you’re Dutch reform, whether you’re Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever you are, you reconnect with your faith. I remember when I had my last son, I would go and sit in the synagogue in the shul where I had my bar mitzvah. And for Jews, every synagogue…

has an ark and inside the ark is a scroll, a Torah. It’s got the five books of Moses, the first five books. And right above it is a lamp. It’s called Ner Tamid in Hebrew. It means the everlasting light, the light that never goes out. And that represents the light of hope. And I’d sit there and I’d look at it and two hours before…

I lost my boy, my wife and I lost our son. He read me an essay. He was at my old school in South Africa at Clifton. And he read me this essay and it was about tube riding, which is what I was really known for in surfing. And he had this line in there, the light shines ahead. The light shines ahead. I mean, how about those four beautiful words? I said, hey, Matthew.

Where do you find that? And he said, down at Rota today for my essay at school, just beautiful words. You know that concept of light, super important, light, what does it represent? It represents faith, it represents hope, and it cuts across all religions. This is the foundational basis for all religions, hope, faith, light. And then how about this?

Shaun Tomson (01:27:30.95)
You know, you mentioned, Justinus, about that Steve Jobs quote. And yes, I have thought about that quote about how you can only make sense of things by looking backwards and those connections. Like, why do they happen? So a friend kept phoning me, hey, Sean, I want to take you surfing. I want to take you surfing. No, there’s no way. know, surfers call it being stoked.

stoked, it’s like a fire, fire that burns in surfers. You can see when Rob speaks, he’s stoked about surfing. You know, once you’ve caught a wave, there’s a sort of fire that burns in you. I don’t know what it is about you just stand up on that board for the first time and you get that fire, but you don’t have to be a surfer. But everyone at some point in their life’s experienced that feeling of being stoked. Maybe it’s on a rugby field cricket, whatever sport you play or whatever achievement you’ve created, you know, get that stoked feeling.

My stoke had gone out, my light, my fire was extinguished. So my mate kept phoning me. I sat next to him in class in my school, Carmel College. Hey Sean, take you surfing. And I don’t know how long it was afterwards. I went, okay. He said, Sean, I’m gonna take you to a break you’ve never surfed before. So we drive up the coast of Durban on the way towards Bolido Bay and he takes me to the spot.

and we walk down these steps and it’s a perfect day. The surf is like four to five feet perfect, just two of us and the sun is boiling up through the ocean, you It’s rising. That African sun when it rises up out the Indian Ocean, there’s like no sight like that on Earth. And I paddle out and I’m crying. And the first wave…

washes over me and it washes my tears away. How about that? And I paddle out again and the next wave does the same thing and I can feel my son is right there, right there with me. I paddle out and the next wave washes my tears away and then I catch a wave and I ride it and I can feel that my boy is with me. And you know, these feelings, they’re not, these are real. I tell people,

Shaun Tomson (01:29:54.024)
When you feel this, this is real, this is real, this is real. And I catch another wave. And now my whole universe seems to be getting back on its axis. And like, it’s okay for me to surf again. It’s okay for me to smile again. And then I paddle up to my mate. And you know, every single surf spot in the world has got a name. It’s got a unique name, one name. And I paddle up to my mate and I go, hey Graham.

What’s the name of the spot? He says it’s sunrise.

How about that?

Shaun Tomson (01:30:37.201)
Yeah, so that was a, I think a start of a new path for me and, you know, kind of a rebuilding process. And I just found that, you know, writing books and sharing my message helped people and helped me. And I’ve been on that path now for 20 years and I love to do it.

One of the things that I love the most is I wrote the Surface Codecard 20 years ago. I wrote it in 15 minutes, 12 lines. Every line begins with a well. It’s 12 commitments. I’ll always paddle back out. I’ll never turn my back on the ocean. I’ll realize that all surfers are joined by one other. Really, really simple. And now I get people all over the world.

They write their own code. 12 lines. Every line begins with I will. People can go to my website, SeanThompson.com. It’s free. people downloading their codes from my website every single day. You get people downloading these codes and I get people to write the code. 12 lines. Every line begins with I will. 15 minutes. That’s all it takes. And it’s just an exercise in visualization, introspection, focus, commitment.

It’s an exercise in power. I will power. When I speak to kids, I go, I will equals power. And they all chanted, power, power, power, power, thousands, hundreds of thousands, power, power. So that’s what I do and I love it. And okay, what does this do? Yes, it’s good for you. You write your code. But when families write it together, or schools write it together, or business groups write it together.

It creates engagement and connectivity in this broken down world. You the world is broken. In America, you’ve got Republicans on one side of the valley, you’ve got Democrats on the other. You know, you’ve got all this religious, this anti-Semitism, you’ve got Ukraine, Russia. You want to bring people together. That’s why sport is so unbelievable.

Shaun Tomson (01:32:53.661)
Because sport, my code brings people together, but sport brings people together in such an incredible way and sportsmen have got so much power for positivity but also the reverse as well. So sportsmen have got big, big responsibility.

Flip (01:33:14.785)
Well, soon.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:33:21.235)
Such a moving, such a moving experience. you.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:33:28.521)
We unfortunately lost the ROP to some battery power. But let’s go full circle there. mean, Sean, what you’ve done and the impact you’ve had and how that’s pivoted your life is such an inspiration. think I can’t imagine going through that. your ability to take that and turn it around into impact is so, so inspirational.

So what’s next? Where will you watch the next World Cup when the boys go for the three-peat? And what are you going to be doing between now and then?

Shaun Tomson (01:34:02.476)
Hahaha

Shaun Tomson (01:34:07.035)
So, I got an invite. It was one of the New Zealand games. so a Kiwi, a group of Kiwis invited me here in Montecito where I live. know, we have about 10 South African families, for some reason they were doing other stuff. But a group of Kiwis invited me over to their house. You know, there’s about six of them. And…

So I go and I find my Springbok tracksuit that I wore when I was in the army in 19… I was in the army in 1973. So my dad said, you know, to my father, the greatest honor that any sportsman could have in South Africa was to wear the green and gold, was to be a Springbok. That was it. Springbok.

That’s it. So I’m going, my dad said, I want you to take along your Springbok tracksuit. And at the end of the day, when you finish there, and you guys can put on your Springbok tracksuit. So I go there. First day, they’re 17 years old, and we are getting hammered there, you know, by the Koparalkis. And I put on the tracksuit. That was it. I was now the Boki.

So now I go, I still got the tracksuit, you know, I kept it as a memento. So I go to watch the game with the Kiwis and I got my tracksuit on. It’s a little bit tight, but it was so fun. You know, I’ll go somewhere here in Santa Barbara. My mate, he was ex-Marty, he played for the Martys. Tien Bezodinhout.

And he always has the games up and you get a South African crew together. Sometimes you throw a lamb on the spit there and we have a good guy, throw some burry there. There’s some people that make burry in the States now. So, yeah, we keep up the vibe. We keep up to the vibe, keep up the support for the boys.

Flip (01:36:19.713)
That’s great, and Sean, thanks for sharing. It’s such good stories and you’re such an inspiration for young fellows like myself and Justine as I’m looking up to you and learning lessons from you. It’s just so awesome. You’re an absolute legend.

Shaun Tomson (01:36:34.458)
Hahaha

Shaun Tomson (01:36:39.58)
Thank you Flip, thank you. Justness, thanks for having me on. Rob Lowe was such a… He was like a… In our house, Rob Lowe was like a god there. People loved him. They loved him for who he was, his personality and just his style of play. was so progressive, you know what I mean? It was so open, it was so creative. It was sort of the essence of…

I think of great sport. You the day that I walked into Newlands with him that I talked about earlier, mean it was so amazing to see how people love that dude. It was incredible. And you know to hear that he has never been unbanned, I mean that is a bloody travesty. That needs to be corrected.

I mean, you know what I mean? He did what he had to do in order to survive and continue playing in those days. And you know, the whole amateurism, shamatorism thing.

I mean, we need to somehow correct that issue, man. There needs to be like an, let me tell you, unbanning Rob Lowe ceremony at Newlands that would pack the stands before one of the big games and before a big test there. How cool would that be?

Justinus Adriaanse (01:37:56.324)
I completely agree.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:38:07.131)
Well, there’s a big all black test there next year and maybe if you commit to come we can try and organize that.

Shaun Tomson (01:38:14.3)
Wouldn’t that be amazing? How cool would that be? Unbanning. would be, you know what I mean? could, the people around Cape Town, unban Rob Lowe. It would be just so fun.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:38:27.077)
Amazing. Well thank you very much Sean and Rob. That was absolutely amazing to spend time with you and learn from you. I really really appreciate it. It’s the first time we’ve had one of these podcasts with people that’s sort of a generation or two before me and Flip and it has been an unbelievable experience. I loved every minute of it and thanks for being vulnerable and thanks for sharing.

Shaun Tomson (01:38:55.804)
No, no, I appreciate that. So this is the… In Hawaii, they call this a shaka. It’s like a greeting, it’s also a hauset. It’s also an expression of aloha, an expression of friendship.

So my program is Double Shaka and it’s spelt with two K’s, not one K, extra K for kindness. Every time I do an event for a corporate, I do a free one for a school group, university, whatever. So Double Shaka lads.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:39:26.013)
Thank you very much. Flip!

Flip (01:39:30.379)
Yeah, thank you, Sean. This was great sharing with you and sharing with Rob. And we hope to catch up soon with the next Bok game.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:39:40.112)
So thanks for listening to Winning the OI Game where we pair Springbok legends with South African experts trading trials abroad. Let us know who else you would like us to get on and make sure to subscribe to help us build the audience and get some great guests. And we’re doing it in partnership with the Laka Network that’s connecting South Africans all over the world. So thanks for the support and we’ll catch you next time.

Justinus Adriaanse (01:40:07.993)
Wow, Sean, that was absolutely freaking fantastic.

Flip (01:40:09.728)
Yeah, this Yeah quick quick question Sean have you ever chatted to a guy called Yanni Duplassi?

Shaun Tomson (01:40:12.08)
Thanks guys, we had fun. You guys are great interviewers.

Yeah.