Episode 9: The second half of life

00:56 –> 01:04  Justinus
   Welcome to Winning the Away Game.

01:04 –> 01:09  Justinus
   This show is about what happens when what wants to find you no longer does.

01:09 –> 01:17  Justinus
   Today, we have two wonderful guests that both represented South Africa internationally and performed at elite levels.

01:17 –> 01:23  Justinus
   Both of them had to start again in new countries, new industries, creating new versions of themselves.

01:23 –> 01:31  Justinus
   On the rugby side, we have a legend of the 90s, a guy who I saw play very often, mostly on opposing teams,

01:31 –> 01:39  Justinus
   Caboz van de Westijen, who built his identity early in rugby and transitioned to many other industries.

01:39 –> 01:48  Justinus
   And in LA, in the United States, we have Brandon Phillips, who spent decades operating businesses at the intersection of culture, sport and entertainment.

01:48 –> 01:52  Justinus
   Both men have crossed borders, both geographically and personally.

01:52 –> 01:56  Justinus
   Both have rebuilt identities that once gave them certainty.

01:56 –> 02:01  Justinus
   And both has come back with confidence, success and built meaning from scratch.

02:01 –> 02:08  Justinus
   In this episode, we want you to know what actually carries over from elite sport into business and what doesn’t.

02:08 –> 02:12  Justinus
   And how you win the Away Game when no one is clapping anymore.

02:12 –> 02:15  Justinus
   Welcome. Very excited about today’s episode.

02:15 –> 02:16  Justinus
   Flip, are you ready?

02:16 –> 02:21  Flip
   Justine, that’s a mouthful indeed. Indeed, very, very happy to have today’s guests on.

02:22 –> 02:27  Flip
   Personally, a hero of mine, Caboz van de Westijen.

02:27 –> 02:29  Flip
   Pretty Cabozzi, what we used to call him.

02:29 –> 02:37  Flip
   I’m very keen to chat to him and to discover Brandon and the wonderful work he does.

02:37 –> 02:38  Flip
   Brandon Caboz, welcome.

02:38 –> 02:40  Brannon
   Cheers, Flip. Nice to be on the program.

02:40 –> 02:42  Brannon
   Thanks, Flip. Thanks, Justine.

02:42 –> 02:43  Brannon
   It’s wonderful to be here.

02:43 –> 02:50  Justinus
   So, we always like to start the show with asking the guests their favorite Springbok moment as a supporter.

02:50 –> 02:54  Justinus
   Tell us the story. Tell us the connection. Tell us the people you were with.

02:54 –> 02:56  Justinus
   Caboz, you want to go first?

02:56 –> 02:58  Cabous
   Okay, let the brain stress go first.

02:58 –> 03:06  Cabous
   Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, I think it’s the old cliche of putting the jersey over your head and playing for the Springboks.

03:06 –> 03:10  Cabous
   But it was quite a stupid story.

03:10 –> 03:18  Cabous
   So, I’ve heard by the grapevine, we’re talking about the 93 Tour to New Zealand that I made the Springbok team.

03:19 –> 03:22  Cabous
   So, we had to go down to Cape Town to get capped and everything.

03:22 –> 03:34  Cabous
   And those days, there was a place called Sports Cafe, which was the place in the waterfront that one had to go out, obviously, on a Friday night because we’re getting capped on a Saturday morning.

03:35 –> 03:43  Cabous
   Anyway, long story short, so we obviously had a few, maybe drinks and dancing at a few tables because I’ve heard that I made the team, but I didn’t want to believe it.

03:43 –> 03:48  Cabous
   I’ve sat on a plane in the defense force and was on my way to Argentina and they canceled the whole tour.

03:48 –> 03:53  Cabous
   So, until I land on the other side, I believe I’m actually in the team and I’ve made the team.

03:54 –> 04:00  Cabous
   So, anyway, so we had a bit of a late night and I arrived at the hotel the next morning and there’s nobody there.

04:00 –> 04:02  Cabous
   Absolutely nobody.

04:02 –> 04:10  Cabous
   So, I thought, this is one of these stupid mistakes again.

04:10 –> 04:11  Cabous
   What did I do?

04:11 –> 04:12  Cabous
   And I can’t get hold of anybody.

04:13 –> 04:17  Cabous
   And being sure I get hold of somebody and, yeah, I was at the wrong hotel.

04:17 –> 04:21  Cabous
   So, you know, I wasn’t going to be capped on my own.

04:21 –> 04:24  Cabous
   So, I had to rush off to the other hotel, made it in time.

04:24 –> 04:27  Cabous
   And, yeah, there we are on our way to New Zealand.

04:27 –> 04:33  Cabous
   So, yeah, it’s a bit of a stupid story, but, I mean, it’s like, I just thought that’s probably my fate in rugby.

04:33 –> 04:35  Cabous
   I’m never going to wear this thing, ever in my life.

04:35 –> 04:38  Cabous
   So, hence, and we were off to New Zealand.

04:38 –> 04:45  Brannon
   Yeah, I mean, guys, I’m sorry to drop in a 95 scenario, but, I mean, it’s edged into my brain.

04:45 –> 04:49  Brannon
   And, you know, I think South Africans love context.

04:49 –> 04:55  Brannon
   So, I think, look, it was so pivotal at that time.

04:55 –> 05:02  Brannon
   Before 95, from a sporting perspective, we never really had, besides cricket, you know,

05:02 –> 05:06  Brannon
   we never had that moment that truly brought the country together.

05:07 –> 05:17  Brannon
   We had individuals like Brian Mitchell or Baby Jakes or Ilana Meyer, you know, those guys from different sporting arenas.

05:17 –> 05:23  Brannon
   But, you know, 95, I was 15 at the time.

05:23 –> 05:26  Brannon
   So, it was a pivotal time in my adolescence.

05:26 –> 05:32  Brannon
   And that collective spirit, we were watching in one of the group stages.

05:32 –> 05:36  Brannon
   And I think they termed it later the Battle of Boer de Rasmus.

05:36 –> 05:40  Brannon
   And, Justine, this is good for you because you live in Canada now as well.

05:40 –> 05:45  Brannon
   But, I mean, that was just such a moment.

05:46 –> 05:55  Brannon
   I mean, the energy in, you know, the restaurants and the public viewing sites were just electric.

05:55 –> 06:01  Brannon
   And I think it was so interesting because we had a lot of fear after that game with all the red cards.

06:01 –> 06:06  Brannon
   So, like, is this now going to, you know, scare our prospects of winning?

06:06 –> 06:11  Brannon
   And then we, as a team and nation, we really came through.

06:11 –> 06:19  Brannon
   And so, yeah, you know, looking back, I’m not too proud that we fought like that.

06:19 –> 06:27  Brannon
   But then again, you know, it also paved the way for the way the team evolved to what it is today.

06:27 –> 06:30  Flip
   Yeah, those are great memories.

06:30 –> 06:41  Flip
   You know, I particularly remember, you know, James Dalton going in there, you know, teaching those Canadians a few lessons, you know.

06:41 –> 06:44  Flip
   And I think it’s himself as well.

06:45 –> 06:53  Justinus
   Brian told me, I didn’t know, but actually James Dalton and Oli Leroux had a boxing match last year.

06:53 –> 06:57  Justinus
   And I actually, after he told me, I went and watched the YouTube video.

06:57 –> 06:58  Justinus
   It was actually fascinating.

06:58 –> 07:03  Justinus
   Oli looks like he’s pretty in, like, much better shape than James.

07:03 –> 07:04  Justinus
   Yeah.

07:04 –> 07:05  Flip
   Yeah.

07:05 –> 07:08  Flip
   No, you live the boxing far on the field, I reckon.

07:12 –> 07:16  Flip
   Caboz, you obviously had a hell of a rugby career.

07:16 –> 07:26  Flip
   And, you know, you played with the long locks and seen as a sort of a rebel, you know, back in the day with you and James Paul.

07:26 –> 07:29  Flip
   And we all had your posters on the wall.

07:29 –> 07:32  Flip
   I think it was Energate that had the posters made of you guys.

07:32 –> 07:40  Flip
   And you had a good transition after rugby, working in the corporate world.

07:40 –> 07:42  Flip
   Then moved to Mauritius.

07:42 –> 07:51  Flip
   When was the moment that you realized that, you know, okay, South Africa is maybe not the place that I’m going to write my next chapter?

07:51 –> 07:58  Cabous
   You know, obviously in the latter part of my life, I’ve come to realize that I’m not a corporate animal.

07:58 –> 08:02  Cabous
   And to cut a long story short, I was at the Mr. Price Group.

08:04 –> 08:13  Cabous
   Yeah, basically when Robert had joined the Mr. Price Group years ago, every year, because I basically got to know everybody at the Mr. Price Group and everything.

08:13 –> 08:17  Cabous
   And every time Robert would say, come and join the company, come and join the company.

08:17 –> 08:20  Cabous
   And I’d say, let’s give me one more year to play rugby, one more year, one more year.

08:20 –> 08:27  Cabous
   And eventually when he became M.P.O. of the Mr. Price Home Store, basically, they offered me his job and I just couldn’t refuse.

08:27 –> 08:32  Cabous
   And then after 10 years of doing that job, myself and the missus became a holiday.

08:33 –> 08:36  Cabous
   And it’s a long story, but I’ll shorten the whole version now.

08:36 –> 08:39  Cabous
   And we just saw the island.

08:39 –> 08:44  Cabous
   We got back to the island and my missus, out of the blue, said to me one day, why didn’t they stay in Mauritius?

08:44 –> 08:46  Cabous
   I said, sounds great.

08:46 –> 08:46  Cabous
   What are you going to do?

08:46 –> 08:48  Cabous
   And she didn’t have a clue.

08:48 –> 08:50  Cabous
   I said, okay, what am I going to do?

08:50 –> 08:51  Cabous
   Now you’re going to own the beach bar.

08:51 –> 08:56  Cabous
   So that’s that you realize being driving right around the island.

08:56 –> 09:02  Cabous
   We realized that there’s no beach bar on this island, which for that matter, I mean, it’s just, I think it’s crazy.

09:02 –> 09:06  Cabous
   I mean, look, I mentioned to you the other night when we spoke.

09:06 –> 09:10  Cabous
   I mean, I think they designed beach bars and then the island fits around the beach bars.

09:10 –> 09:11  Cabous
   There was nothing in Mauritius.

09:11 –> 09:12  Cabous
   So there was obviously a reason for that.

09:12 –> 09:21  Cabous
   Anyway, for long to be short, we arrived in Mauritius and we opened up the first standalone beach bar where absolutely nobody gave us a chance.

09:21 –> 09:26  Cabous
   I mean, you’ll beat the person and he’ll tell you, so I want you that X has been rugby player.

09:26 –> 09:27  Cabous
   So yes, okay.

09:27 –> 09:28  Cabous
   What are you doing here?

09:28 –> 09:30  Cabous
   Now we’re starting a beach bar.

09:30 –> 09:31  Cabous
   You know what?

09:31 –> 09:35  Cabous
   Think about it twice because I don’t think there’s an opportunity for that.

09:35 –> 09:36  Cabous
   You know, whatever.

09:36 –> 09:38  Cabous
   Next guy, same thing, same thing.

09:38 –> 09:44  Cabous
   I just told him, listen, let’s just open this thing because if I’ve got to listen to one more person, I’m just not going to do anything.

09:44 –> 09:51  Cabous
   And we opened up the place and heaven behold, two weeks later, this place was full lunch and supper.

09:51 –> 09:54  Cabous
   And I knew zero about a restaurant business, as in nothing.

09:54 –> 09:56  Cabous
   So yeah, we were fortunate.

09:56 –> 10:06  Cabous
   I mean, I think business, business, not only business, I think sport, where it relates to businesses, got a lot to do with a bit of luck.

10:06 –> 10:08  Cabous
   I think our timing was just right.

10:08 –> 10:13  Cabous
   And I got to meet a lot of people on the island because it was a place to be seen.

10:13 –> 10:15  Cabous
   Not that it was anything majorly fancy.

10:15 –> 10:17  Cabous
   It’s just there was no beach bars on the island.

10:17 –> 10:22  Cabous
   So the people were driving from all over and people would come to the island and then let’s go to Caboce’s place type of thing.

10:22 –> 10:24  Cabous
   So yeah, that was basically the transition.

10:24 –> 10:28  Cabous
   And then, yeah, we’ll get into probably later things what I’m doing now.

10:28 –> 10:31  Cabous
   But I mean, yeah, so was it planned?

10:31 –> 10:36  Cabous
   If you asked me 20 years ago, it’s nearly 19 years, would I ever see myself sitting in Mauritius?

10:36 –> 10:37  Cabous
   I’m like, what are you talking about?

10:37 –> 10:38  Cabous
   No, never.

10:38 –> 10:41  Cabous
   So yeah, probably that’s my journey.

10:41 –> 10:44  Cabous
   Ended up in Mauritius, which is home away from home now.

10:44 –> 10:48  Cabous
   It’s been nearly 19 years, but I still can’t speak French like I mentioned to you.

10:48 –> 10:50  Cabous
   So I’m starting to doubt my intellect.

10:50 –> 10:54  Cabous
   So let’s not venture too much on the brain stress side of things.

10:54 –> 10:56  Flip
   I think that’s quite interesting, Caboce.

10:56 –> 11:02  Flip
   I think all of us that we sit abroad as South Africans, we will never say that was part of our plan.

11:02 –> 11:05  Flip
   But yet, yet here we are.

11:05 –> 11:11  Flip
   Brandon, yourself, you built a pretty successful career in South Africa.

11:11 –> 11:15  Flip
   What motivated you to go overseas?

11:15 –> 11:21  Brannon
   Yeah, you know, started in Johannesburg from the early 2000s.

11:21 –> 11:25  Brannon
   You know, I started work really when I was 19.

11:25 –> 11:27  Brannon
   And then I was doing correspondence through UNISA.

11:27 –> 11:32  Brannon
   So I had good exposure from a young age into my career.

11:32 –> 11:36  Brannon
   And I think earlier on, I had incredible opportunities.

11:36 –> 11:37  Brannon
   You know, we did work for Mandela.

11:37 –> 11:43  Brannon
   We did work for Ta-Bombeki, for a few MECs in Gauteng later.

11:44 –> 11:53  Brannon
   You know, and then, as you mentioned earlier, between sports and entertainment, that was really what my life was all the time.

11:53 –> 12:03  Brannon
   So whether it was launching TV shows with SABC, we did Castle Loud, Yo TV even.

12:03 –> 12:09  Brannon
   And then in 2000, I kind of were doing some work in Cape Town.

12:09 –> 12:11  Brannon
   The media world shifted as well in South Africa.

12:11 –> 12:17  Brannon
   You know, Media24 opened their headquarters in Cape Town.

12:17 –> 12:21  Brannon
   And, you know, we kind of just wanted a shift.

12:21 –> 12:24  Brannon
   And so we moved our headquarters to Cape Town.

12:24 –> 12:28  Brannon
   And then we did incredible work in Cape Town as well.

12:28 –> 12:31  Brannon
   We did four, three different mayors.

12:31 –> 12:33  Brannon
   We did big, big projects.

12:33 –> 12:38  Brannon
   And at that time, we had a very big production company as well.

12:38 –> 12:43  Brannon
   And the last big production we did was around FIFA in 2010.

12:43 –> 12:48  Brannon
   And I think after the World Cup, I hit a bit of burnout.

12:48 –> 12:54  Brannon
   You know, it was such a massive project for us.

12:54 –> 13:02  Brannon
   You know, I mean, on the quarterfinals, I remember we had 400,000 people in our event footprint from 10 in the morning until 11 o’clock at night.

13:02 –> 13:09  Brannon
   And we had 16 lost children that we had to get back to their families by 12 p.m. before they went to safe houses.

13:10 –> 13:13  Brannon
   You know, that was just like the intensity of the event.

13:13 –> 13:14  Brannon
   And it was six months.

13:14 –> 13:20  Brannon
   And before that, it was, you know, the pre-work before the World Cup was so intense.

13:20 –> 13:27  Brannon
   But having that exposure with international teams and coming together was really special.

13:27 –> 13:33  Brannon
   And during the World Cup, we met a lot of people from overseas that were in South Africa.

13:35 –> 13:41  Brannon
   And it kind of started building into some other projects after 2010.

13:41 –> 13:52  Brannon
   And then, yeah, I came to L.A. 2010, 2011, 2012 just to do a bit of a reconnaissance, have some meetings, start kind of feeling out the lay of the land.

13:54 –> 13:59  Brannon
   But also prior to that, you know, we had always done opportunities with the U.S. and the U.K.

13:59 –> 14:06  Brannon
   One of the founders of CSA was Saul Kersner back in the day, used to bring all the Miss World judges.

14:06 –> 14:11  Brannon
   You know, we introduced Naomi Campbell to Mandela back in the day.

14:11 –> 14:18  Brannon
   We brought Jean-Claude Van Damme to South Africa, Iman, her Brits, you name it.

14:18 –> 14:25  Brannon
   So we always had that, but it was never strong enough for us to take that risk and leap of faith.

14:25 –> 14:35  Brannon
   And in 2013, I decided, OK, time to roll up the sleeves and, you know, bootstrap a little bit again and get uncomfortable.

14:36 –> 14:39  Brannon
   And I just wanted that challenge.

14:39 –> 14:46  Brannon
   New York was initially the stepping stone, but the hub of entertainment was in L.A.

14:46 –> 14:50  Brannon
   And things started shifting.

14:50 –> 14:54  Brannon
   You know, Trevor Noah got some big opportunities aside.

14:54 –> 14:56  Brannon
   You know, Charlize was doing her thing.

14:56 –> 14:59  Brannon
   And so it kind of felt right.

14:59 –> 15:07  Brannon
   But the weather just felt better in Los Angeles, as Caboz can relate to in Mauritius.

15:07 –> 15:09  Brannon
   Southern California is very close to South Africa.

15:09 –> 15:16  Brannon
   But, yeah, culturally over the years, realized very, very different to South Africa.

15:16 –> 15:19
   That’s such a fascinating point, Brian.

15:19 –> 15:30
   And I think what’s interesting about both your and Caboz’s story is that, and it actually mirrors my own, is I actually, with a friend of mine, I still have to pay him.

15:30 –> 15:38
   But about a year before we left South Africa, I made a bet with him to say that he will immigrate first before I would do it.

15:38 –> 15:39
   I will never leave South Africa.

15:39 –> 15:48  Justinus
   And as abstains would have it, we ended up here, and we were actually just skiing for a winter and really loved it and decided to come back.

15:48 –> 15:53  Justinus
   But it’s amazing how those thoughts in our own minds change.

15:53 –> 15:58  Justinus
   So then you both end up in different places in the world.

15:59 –> 16:06  Justinus
   Obviously, in the beginning, there’s a bit of a honeymoon phase where everything’s exciting and there’s adrenaline going to adapt to the new place.

16:06 –> 16:14  Justinus
   But at some point, that wears off and we start facing the reality of the consequences and the impact of the decisions we’ve made.

16:14 –> 16:17  Justinus
   What was that like for you guys?

16:17 –> 16:24  Justinus
   What was it like then adjusting to the new reality, changing your perspective, and being successful in that new context?

16:25 –> 16:31  Cabous
   From my side, I probably think I had the reverse of what you were just speaking.

16:31 –> 16:33  Cabous
   I had a nightmare when it began.

16:33 –> 16:38  Cabous
   The beginning phase for me was a total nightmare because I didn’t know anybody on the island.

16:38 –> 16:42  Cabous
   I didn’t know a single person on this island when I arrived there.

16:42 –> 16:51  Cabous
   So eventually, I got to meet a, by chance, I got to meet a Chinese guy that was married to a South African girl that had a restaurant in Mauritius.

16:52 –> 16:54  Cabous
   And one day he just said to me, you’re stressed.

16:54 –> 16:57  Cabous
   I said, I don’t easily get too stressed, but I am seriously stressed at the moment.

16:57 –> 16:59  Cabous
   We’re not going to finish this place.

16:59 –> 17:01  Cabous
   I didn’t understand the culture on the island, how it works.

17:01 –> 17:05  Cabous
   I mean, the old culture years ago was Friday, Saturday night.

17:05 –> 17:06  Cabous
   We had drinks Sunday night.

17:06 –> 17:08  Cabous
   You were card blanched in the movie and go to sleep.

17:08 –> 17:10  Cabous
   Yeah, they drink on a Sunday.

17:10 –> 17:16  Cabous
   So to get a guy to come and work on a Monday, Tuesday, you’re lucky if you get a small car for the end to come do a job here for you.

17:17 –> 17:20  Cabous
   Like I said, we were open literally for two weeks and the thing was full.

17:20 –> 17:30  Cabous
   I mean, I sold the restaurant now six months before COVID where I just had enough of entertaining and dancing and acting like a clown on the table for people.

17:30 –> 17:33  Cabous
   And I’m not keen on doing that anymore.

17:33 –> 17:34  Cabous
   Look a bit stupid.

17:34 –> 17:39  Cabous
   So then, yeah, it hasn’t changed yet because the place still works.

17:39 –> 17:50  Cabous
   I’ve never really had a downtime in Mauritius where I’ve been sitting under a palm tree and drinking a, I want to say what you call them islands, like a pina colada.

17:50 –> 17:54  Cabous
   And thinking, what did I do?

17:54 –> 17:54  Cabous
   Where am I?

17:54 –> 17:56  Cabous
   Why did I actually arrive here?

17:56 –> 17:57  Cabous
   What did I come and do in Mauritius?

17:57 –> 18:09  Cabous
   I mean, shit, I could have done probably some other move or stayed at the company and maybe ended up at the board and missed a price or something, which I look back and say I’m glad I didn’t do because I’m not a corporate animal.

18:09 –> 18:14  Cabous
   And so it’s never, I’ve never really had a bad state, a bad party Mauritius.

18:14 –> 18:20  Cabous
   If I come to think of it, I mean, often people say, gee, you’re such a visionary to go overseas.

18:20 –> 18:24  Cabous
   But, Jesus, what did you want to tell us when you see it coming and all that stuff I think was it?

18:24 –> 18:28  Cabous
   I don’t know, it was far from being a visionary, I’ve never been and never will be.

18:28 –> 18:34  Cabous
   It was probably a bit of luck and just a change of scenario, scene, and it worked.

18:34 –> 18:36  Cabous
   So, yeah, and it’s still working.

18:36 –> 18:44  Cabous
   So, yeah, I don’t complain, but like I said, yeah, I’ve never really had that bad, bad time, and it’s been 19 years now.

18:44 –> 18:51  Cabous
   So, and I think you’ve become part of the whole, I understand the island, it’s got a culture, it’s got a way of operating.

18:51 –> 18:58  Cabous
   And, of course, a lot of people copy and paste and they bring stuff that’s going to work in LA, it’s going to work in Mauritius, works in SAK, it’s going to work in Mauritius.

18:58 –> 18:59  Cabous
   It doesn’t work like that.

18:59 –> 19:03  Cabous
   So, yeah, to get back to your point is, have I ever had a bad time?

19:03 –> 19:04  Cabous
   And no, I haven’t.

19:04 –> 19:07  Cabous
   I just can’t, there’s nothing to complain about.

19:07 –> 19:14  Cabous
   Of course, like Flip said, we’ll catch upon, touch upon the cultures thing and all those things that changes.

19:14 –> 19:21  Cabous
   I mean, like a stupid thing, I got divorced from my wife, not because we were fighting, it’s just that we grew apart.

19:21 –> 19:31  Cabous
   And I remarried a French wife, a French woman who is from France, a big family from Saint-Rapais.

19:31 –> 19:34  Cabous
   She’s been a wine distributor for 25 years on the island.

19:35 –> 19:44  Cabous
   And, yeah, so it’s, I want to say I’m blessed, but I’m completely in, not in awe of this little place.

19:44 –> 19:46  Cabous
   But, yeah, I love the island lifestyle.

19:46 –> 19:49  Cabous
   For me, yeah, island lifestyle just does it for me.

19:49 –> 19:52  Cabous
   I mean, it’s hard graft here because it’s a small island.

19:52 –> 19:56  Cabous
   You’ve got a graft to make it work here.

19:56 –> 20:00  Cabous
   It’s not like you sit on the trees at 5 o’clock, like I said, you flipped the other day.

20:00 –> 20:07  Cabous
   People will sit here drinking pina coladas or penis enlarges like all the memorishas in the shade.

20:07 –> 20:10  Cabous
   So, yeah, happy days for me on the island.

20:10 –> 20:13  Cabous
   And I’m not regretting any moment of actually coming.

20:13 –> 20:14  Cabous
   We’ve never had it.

20:14 –> 20:16  Flip
   That’s incredible.

20:16 –> 20:19  Flip
   And that’s just a great mindset, I think, all over the most.

20:19 –> 20:23  Flip
   And it’s not, to me, you can say it’s not luck that you’re successful.

20:23 –> 20:28  Flip
   It’s pretty much your mindset that gets out the positivity to make it work.

20:28 –> 20:31  Flip
   Brandon, for you, landing in L.A., what was that like?

20:31 –> 20:35  Brannon
   Yeah, I mean, you know, Justine is on one of our prior calls.

20:35 –> 20:38  Brannon
   You know, I reflect back over the years.

20:38 –> 20:46  Brannon
   And I mean, I say it with humility, but I feel like I’ve spent my whole career failing to realize I might actually be winning.

20:46 –> 20:52  Brannon
   You know, because it’s for every reversal, there’s a reversal for a step to go forward.

20:52 –> 20:58  Brannon
   And so I think, yeah, that that breakdown in 2010 was a breakthrough in many ways.

20:58 –> 21:04  Brannon
   But I think, you know, I’ve been in L.A. now 13 years.

21:04 –> 21:11  Brannon
   I’ve worked across the country, East Coast, West Coast, a bit more central.

21:11 –> 21:25  Brannon
   And there’s a very strong contrast coming from South Africa, which, if I can impart anything for people watching this platform, is that we’re about the collective, right?

21:25 –> 21:27  Brannon
   Ubuntu is about that.

21:27 –> 21:31  Brannon
   You know, it’s who we are together.

21:32 –> 21:38  Brannon
   And when you come to America, America’s really, the doctrine here is about individuality.

21:38 –> 21:41  Brannon
   And it’s more about who can I become?

21:41 –> 21:49  Brannon
   And so how does that translate really into the working environment is very different.

21:49 –> 21:53  Brannon
   You know, South Africans, we love to help.

21:53 –> 21:58  Brannon
   We, you know, we prioritize trust and context and relationships.

21:58 –> 22:03  Brannon
   You know, it’s like how we can, how can we help you, you know, to get this done?

22:03 –> 22:11  Brannon
   And when you come to America, it’s what can you do for me before I consider if I want to help you?

22:12 –> 22:16  Brannon
   I think that’s something that I really struggled with over the years.

22:16 –> 22:30  Brannon
   And I think as well as South Africans, I think we, because of our environments, our upbringing, we have this sense of intuition going into certain situations.

22:30 –> 22:32  Brannon
   Like Khabar just shared that story about the TV.

22:32 –> 22:41  Brannon
   That was an intuitive moment that prompted this energy and this insurgence of momentum, you know.

22:41 –> 22:44  Brannon
   And I think in America, they’re very structured.

22:44 –> 22:46  Brannon
   It’s very systems-based.

22:46 –> 22:48  Brannon
   It’s about trust.

22:48 –> 22:51  Brannon
   And you’ve got to have absolute clarity.

22:51 –> 23:01  Brannon
   So over the years, you know, it’s, and in a very good way as well, because it’s up the ante for us as a global organization,

23:01 –> 23:14  Brannon
   we’ve had to prepare a lot more going into environments, as opposed to coming into a working forum and saying, well, you know, we did this and that’s how it went.

23:14 –> 23:23  Brannon
   And when we sat in a room here and you would tell them about these really big projects that we did, it didn’t hit home.

23:23 –> 23:30  Brannon
   Because xenophobia is not the right word, but, you know, Americans want to know facts.

23:31 –> 23:33  Brannon
   They want to know, okay, well, what have you done in America?

23:33 –> 23:36  Brannon
   And now how are you going to orchestrate this?

23:36 –> 23:39  Brannon
   And at what speed?

23:39 –> 23:50  Brannon
   In South Africa, and I think especially as we transitioned after 94, you really had to learn how to read the room, especially in a business forum.

23:50 –> 24:00  Brannon
   And you had to figure out how to uplift the collective within that forum to get the best out of people, as opposed to coming in there with authority.

24:00 –> 24:03  Brannon
   And coming to America, I had that.

24:04 –> 24:09  Brannon
   That was a skill that I thought I honed in South Africa and I came here with confidence.

24:09 –> 24:15  Brannon
   But in the business setting, that was almost considered as a weakness or lack of confidence.

24:16 –> 24:20  Brannon
   So in America, I think you have to stand with authority first.

24:20 –> 24:26  Brannon
   And then you can consider bringing the collective up later.

24:26 –> 24:27  Brannon
   And that was hard.

24:27 –> 24:33  Brannon
   That was a real hard hat for me to hone in and master later.

24:33 –> 24:35  Brannon
   Wow, that’s interesting.

24:35 –> 24:39
   I, I’ve never thought about it that way until you mentioned it.

24:39 –> 24:54  Flip
   But I, I mean, I think Canada probably a little less than the US, but it definitely is on the US side compared to South Africa, where that traditional rock star approach of, of driving.

24:54 –> 25:02  Justinus
   And, um, seems to come across more than, than the collective, let’s do something together where everybody benefits.

25:02 –> 25:03  Brannon
   Yeah.

25:03 –> 25:14  Brannon
   I mean, you know, something that I tell my American counterparts here is I say, you know, in South Africa, we have a word when we say hello, it’s Sao Buona, you know, and, and what does Sao Buona mean?

25:14 –> 25:15  Brannon
   It means I see you.

25:15 –> 25:19  Brannon
   It’s about a moment of being present where you acknowledge someone.

25:19 –> 25:21  Brannon
   I mean, that in itself speaks volumes, right?

25:21 –> 25:22  Brannon
   Awesome.

25:22 –> 25:23  Flip
   Okay.

25:23 –> 25:31  Flip
   So I think going down that theme that involved some reinvention and some shift in some of your own paradigms, right?

25:31 –> 25:43  Flip
   Where, um, I mean, both of you, uh, if we go to Cabo’s, you obviously had a very successful rugby career and then as an executive, uh, in, in South Africa.

25:43 –> 25:53
   And now you transplant to a new place where none of that reputation or, or, or that preceding things is helping you.

25:53 –> 26:08  Justinus
   Was there any moments where, where you had to relearn, uh, and what was it like building that new reputation now and, and, and, and doing things from scratch where people don’t know the springbok rugby player or the executive?

26:09 –> 26:10  Cabous
   Yeah.

26:10 –> 26:10  Cabous
   Yeah.

26:10 –> 26:18  Cabous
   It’s obviously my scenarios that I think is, I want to say completely different, but it’s definitely, how can I put it?

26:18 –> 26:25  Cabous
   It was, it was not as challenging as what Brandon had to endure going to LA from Cape Town.

26:25 –> 26:26  Cabous
   It’s from me to Mauritius.

26:26 –> 26:29  Cabous
   Mauritius has always had this affinity with South African.

26:29 –> 26:32  Cabous
   One day he wants to tell his grandkids, you know what?

26:32 –> 26:39  Cabous
   Uh, I hope I was in Mauritius in 2010 and the grandkids go, Oh, dad, so happy.

26:39 –> 27:01  Cabous
   When we got here, I mean, there, there was a few challenging, few challenging things because, I mean, luckily a lot of the things, I was no marketing guru like, like Brandon, but I just replicated a lot of things that actually work in ESSA that I thought after a while, after understanding a little bit how the island works and the hard services, is that I could implement things here.

27:01 –> 27:11  Cabous
   That worked in ESSA and yeah, I mean, they’ve never done it here before because you need to understand this island is so small and there’s some people that stay on the island that never see the sea.

27:11 –> 27:17  Cabous
   Now we’re only 60 kilometers by 40 kilometers and if you ask them, but madame, why don’t you go to the sea?

27:17 –> 27:19  Cabous
   The bus, you don’t come here.

27:19 –> 27:22  Cabous
   So that’s what you have on, that’s what you’re dealing with on the island.

27:22 –> 27:27  Cabous
   I mean, they, we were, we were, we were basically were a cane cutting island.

27:27 –> 27:30  Cabous
   That’s what they, that’s what they survived on.

27:30 –> 27:36  Cabous
   I mean, we actually taught a lot of South Africans up in the North Coast and Natal how to actually grow sugar cane.

27:36 –> 27:40  Cabous
   So, and then they started diversifying into all different spheres.

27:40 –> 27:46  Cabous
   So for me to replicate some stuff that, especially in the hospitality environment, I mean, stupid thing.

27:46 –> 27:49  Cabous
   I could never understand why we didn’t, why don’t do buckets.

27:49 –> 27:51  Cabous
   I mean, there’s a common thing in ESSA.

27:51 –> 27:55  Cabous
   If you want to order beers, you order six, you get one free, order six, you get two free or whatever.

27:55 –> 27:56  Cabous
   Get your bucket beer.

27:56 –> 27:58  Cabous
   You don’t walk with one, one beer to the table.

27:59 –> 28:03  Cabous
   So I went to breweries and said, can’t you just get me a few buckets, brand this stuff.

28:03 –> 28:06  Cabous
   And now when you come to the island, it’s all over the island.

28:06 –> 28:11  Cabous
   So we implemented some stuff that we’re working in ESSA already, but it was going to add value to the island.

28:11 –> 28:21  Cabous
   But I’ve also, where I saw a little bit of a difference was, you know, my business was working and the business is flourishing.

28:21 –> 28:24  Cabous
   So I wanted to add value to the island.

28:24 –> 28:31  Cabous
   That’s the reason why I rather wanted to start contributing towards helping the locals in different projects.

28:31 –> 28:34  Cabous
   And we coached rugby here for six, seven years.

28:34 –> 28:39  Cabous
   And for my mate, he eventually decided to go back to Australia.

28:39 –> 28:42  Cabous
   The big farmers in Australia and then I decided, listen, I’ve had enough now.

28:42 –> 28:47  Cabous
   It’s time to move on to more cultural things or just start to uplift the community.

28:47 –> 28:49  Cabous
   Because it’s a very, it’s a poor country.

28:49 –> 28:59  Cabous
   There’s obviously a lot of very rich individuals buying property and stuff here on the island now for various tax reasons, et cetera, et cetera.

28:59 –> 29:05  Cabous
   But if you look at the whole, that’s the top of the pyramid.

29:05 –> 29:10  Cabous
   I mean, that’s five or 10% of the island that’s really got to sit and get sometimes obscene money.

29:10 –> 29:12  Cabous
   And then the rest, they haven’t got a lot of money.

29:12 –> 29:14  Cabous
   So you can add a lot of value on the island.

29:14 –> 29:16  Cabous
   And that’s when we started getting involved.

29:16 –> 29:18  Cabous
   So instead of, we’re just driving my restaurant.

29:18 –> 29:19  Cabous
   Because this thing was working.

29:19 –> 29:22  Cabous
   I mean, I didn’t have to do any advertising.

29:22 –> 29:27  Cabous
   When we coached rugby, I mean, lucky there’s a guy like Gavin Vericis in SA.

29:27 –> 29:29  Cabous
   And he asked us to brand our jerseys.

29:29 –> 29:30  Cabous
   And he said, for both, what do you want?

29:30 –> 29:32  Cabous
   I said, I need jerseys, Gavin.

29:32 –> 29:35  Cabous
   He said, well, can I have the SA rugby ledges on the sleeve?

29:35 –> 29:36  Cabous
   I said, you can go in the chest.

29:36 –> 29:37  Cabous
   I don’t care.

29:37 –> 29:38  Cabous
   I just need rugby jerseys.

29:38 –> 29:39  Cabous
   How many sets do you need?

29:39 –> 29:41  Cabous
   And he just sent all of them.

29:41 –> 29:43  Cabous
   So we had the beach house on the chest.

29:43 –> 29:46  Cabous
   Now we’re playing in the south and the west on the island with our team.

29:46 –> 29:48  Cabous
   And we’re starting to win.

29:48 –> 29:48  Cabous
   And the people are coming.

29:48 –> 29:50  Cabous
   And it’s a whole community project again.

29:50 –> 29:51  Cabous
   Because I own the bar.

29:51 –> 29:53  Cabous
   I need to run the bar.

29:53 –> 29:55  Cabous
   And another guy has got this butchery.

29:55 –> 29:57  Cabous
   He has to make the bourgeois rolls.

29:57 –> 29:59  Cabous
   So it’s a whole community thing.

29:59 –> 30:02  Cabous
   And that money that we made at the rugby, we gave back to the community.

30:02 –> 30:04  Cabous
   And simple things.

30:04 –> 30:07  Cabous
   But there is so much value to add.

30:07 –> 30:11  Cabous
   And that’s when I started to understand the island more.

30:12 –> 30:14  Cabous
   And, you know, it’s not one of those things.

30:14 –> 30:17  Cabous
   It’s not like you have to advertise and tell the whole world.

30:17 –> 30:18  Cabous
   I don’t like doing that type of things.

30:18 –> 30:20  Cabous
   It was nice to do it in a subtle way.

30:20 –> 30:22  Cabous
   But to get the brand out there anyway.

30:22 –> 30:23  Cabous
   So people were saying, I’ll be playing in the south.

30:23 –> 30:24  Cabous
   What’s this beach house thing?

30:24 –> 30:25  Cabous
   What’s that?

30:25 –> 30:26  Cabous
   No, it’s a beach bar.

30:26 –> 30:27  Cabous
   Beach bar.

30:27 –> 30:28  Cabous
   Si bar posibli.

30:28 –> 30:29  Cabous
   It’s not going to work.

30:29 –> 30:29  Cabous
   Where?

30:29 –> 30:31  Cabous
   No, it’s in the north.

30:31 –> 30:31  Cabous
   Who is it?

30:31 –> 30:32  Cabous
   No, it’s mine.

30:32 –> 30:32  Cabous
   What?

30:32 –> 30:33  Cabous
   Okay, we’re coming.

30:33 –> 30:33  Cabous
   When?

30:33 –> 30:34  Cabous
   Can I come tomorrow?

30:34 –> 30:35  Cabous
   Yes, book a table for 20.

30:36 –> 30:38  Cabous
   And this thing just rolled like that.

30:38 –> 30:43  Cabous
   So, and then I really started enjoying the little projects that we did on the island.

30:43 –> 30:48  Cabous
   We were going to a neighborhood and five families would get together and just getting near the

30:48 –> 30:48  Cabous
   Budapest Rolls.

30:48 –> 30:50  Cabous
   And we started painting the houses.

30:50 –> 30:55  Cabous
   We always had this little vision of people are so poor and sometimes they just, they haven’t

30:55 –> 30:56  Cabous
   got the money to paint their houses.

30:57 –> 31:01  Cabous
   So we’d go into a neighborhood, I’ve always had this vision of creating like a little book

31:01 –> 31:05  Cabous
   up in some of the little neighborhoods we had with all the colors because they loved

31:05 –> 31:06  Cabous
   their colors as well.

31:06 –> 31:10  Cabous
   It was quite like a, like probably a bit of an acid trip when you paint their houses because

31:10 –> 31:15  Cabous
   it’s like lime green and pink and bright orange and like, but they loved it.

31:15 –> 31:19  Cabous
   So, I mean, to go to a guy with five, six people, we’d paint their houses, paint like,

31:19 –> 31:23  Cabous
   yeah, we probably painted about 10 of those houses like that.

31:23 –> 31:26  Cabous
   And then, yeah, obviously some of the people left the island again.

31:26 –> 31:28  Cabous
   The whole project just faded away.

31:28 –> 31:30  Cabous
   It was just sad because I loved it.

31:30 –> 31:34  Cabous
   When we had a braille going and music going and so, the jumping castle for the kids and

31:34 –> 31:37  Cabous
   there’s like 10 families just painting the people’s outside of the house.

31:37 –> 31:39  Cabous
   And if you could do the inside, we’ll do the inside.

31:39 –> 31:41  Cabous
   But just small things like that.

31:41 –> 31:45  Cabous
   So, yeah, I mean, I think there’s so much value that you can add.

31:45 –> 31:48  Cabous
   And still today, there’s so much value that you can add to those things.

31:48 –> 31:51  Cabous
   And I mean, again, and then that bush telegraph just goes.

31:51 –> 31:55  Cabous
   Sometimes when you drive in a car, yeah, and you just, bonjour, bonjour.

31:55 –> 31:59  Cabous
   And you mentioned your clients or potential clients are sitting in cars.

31:59 –> 32:00  Cabous
   And she said, you’re the mayor.

32:00 –> 32:03  Cabous
   You said, no, man, that guy is my ex-waiter’s girlfriend.

32:03 –> 32:05  Cabous
   And that girl, she used to be my cleaner.

32:05 –> 32:06  Cabous
   And that’s her brother.

32:06 –> 32:09  Cabous
   So, everybody just knows everybody on the island.

32:09 –> 32:12  Cabous
   So, yeah, there’s a lot of value that one can add.

32:12 –> 32:19  Cabous
   I mean, I think Brandon’s challenge to make it work in LA was much more daunting than that.

32:19 –> 32:22  Cabous
   So, that’s why I can tell all these happy, shitty stories.

32:22 –> 32:23  Cabous
   And Brandon can tell you that.

32:23 –> 32:27  Cabous
   I can tell you the not-so-exciting stories.

32:27 –> 32:31  Cabous
   It’s a big, much, much bigger challenge for him to get where he goes up.

32:31 –> 32:32  Cabous
   Kudos to him.

32:32 –> 32:38  Flip
   What I love about that, Cabos, and I think it’s particularly to South Africans,

32:38 –> 32:45  Flip
   is like South Africa has this little test-up where we, in certain ways, way far ahead of other countries.

32:45 –> 32:56  Flip
   You know, we look at our banking system, our financial system, the way we consume stuff like alcohol, etc., and food.

32:57 –> 33:04  Flip
   As you said, it’s just you see things that work and you go to other countries, in France or the UK, and you see it.

33:04 –> 33:06  Flip
   Well, you can’t get that.

33:06 –> 33:14  Flip
   Well, you know, and as you said, it’s such an easy idea that you just implement and it works.

33:14 –> 33:24  Flip
   But in that same sense, you know, you must have taken a lot of things with you, South Africanisms that you took with you.

33:24 –> 33:31  Flip
   But on the other hand, what cultures that you have to lose, you know, when you got to the U.S., you know, to adapt.

33:31 –> 33:39  Brannon
   When I was living in South Africa, I was proud and fortunate enough to represent South Africa in the sporting arena as well.

33:39 –> 33:46  Brannon
   And that taught me a lot about myself and in part about integrity and authenticity.

33:46 –> 33:54  Brannon
   So I always decided never to compromise my integrity in any situation or any of my dealings.

33:54 –> 34:03  Brannon
   And, you know, I learned quickly in South Africa that, you know, there’s that saying, bullshit baffles brains.

34:04 –> 34:09  Brannon
   You know, and what I love about South Africans is we smell BS from a mile away.

34:09 –> 34:21  Brannon
   And, you know, it’s you only get one one opportunity to earn the respect of your peers and of the room.

34:21 –> 34:30  Brannon
   And so but I also think in South Africa, we have a we we condition from kids to respect our elders, to respect certain people within society.

34:30 –> 34:36  Brannon
   And so those were cultural norms that I consciously decided to bring with me.

34:36 –> 34:53  Brannon
   So even though I had moments of conflict or barriers, I was always able to disarm that person in front of me because they could feel the sense of genuineness, maybe.

34:53 –> 35:00  Brannon
   And my sporting and martial arts background taught me discipline and endurance.

35:00 –> 35:06  Brannon
   But America’s helped me to to to to navigate complexity.

35:06 –> 35:17  Brannon
   And I think the two go hand in hand from a business context, because, you know, endurance only takes you so long or so far in anything in life.

35:17 –> 35:20  Brannon
   But you need to understand how to navigate complexity.

35:20 –> 35:22  Brannon
   And that takes preparation.

35:22 –> 35:29  Brannon
   And another great thing, which I think is important anywhere in the world is defensibility.

35:30 –> 35:35  Brannon
   You know, we learn a lot about that in our sporting, you know, on the field, but off the field.

35:35 –> 35:38  Brannon
   Americans are renowned for defensibility.

35:38 –> 35:43  Brannon
   And from a business context, it’s been a great learning lesson for me.

35:43 –> 36:08  Brannon
   So whether I’m representing somebody in film or sports or on TV or whether I’m working with a brand, I now instinctually look how I can make sure that we protect those brand values, you know, that we can protect the campaign, that we’re not infringing on on other creative opportunities or norms.

36:08 –> 36:11  Brannon
   So I think it’s been great.

36:11 –> 36:24  Brannon
   Yeah, I mean, certainly there’s been moments where I’ve certainly considered maybe to, you know, call it a day and come back.

36:24 –> 36:31  Brannon
   But I think, you know, home is what you make it ultimately, you know, as Kibos was just sharing with us.

36:31 –> 36:44  Brannon
   And relatability and just being human and taking time to connect with your neighbors and your peers, it goes a long way, I think, wherever you are, you know, same with France and Canada.

36:44 –> 36:46  Cabous
   Listen, I’m sorry, can I just interject?

36:46 –> 36:50  Cabous
   I’m so glad Brandon is here because I was quite nervous about doing this program.

36:50 –> 36:56  Cabous
   But what he says that reminds me of something again, so just quickly, so it’s so true what you just said, brother.

36:56 –> 37:00  Cabous
   Just to, if you could just be yourself and just be, what you see is what you get.

37:00 –> 37:02  Cabous
   And just be honest in this island.

37:02 –> 37:07  Cabous
   Because what often happens in the island is people come here and there’s a lot of bullshippers that come to islands because they hide there.

37:08 –> 37:14  Cabous
   And they call them the island offers from here, they go to Malta, they go to Greece, they go to Caribbean, wherever they go to.

37:14 –> 37:23  Cabous
   So when the people come out here and, yeah, I’ll probably never be the richest person, but there’s never been my greatest ambition.

37:23 –> 37:32  Cabous
   But, you know, if I can be sincere to myself and just be myself and try to show people right the wrong way, along the right way, sorry.

37:32 –> 37:36  Cabous
   You know, you don’t often get that.

37:36 –> 37:37  Cabous
   And the island’s quite funny.

37:37 –> 37:49  Cabous
   Until they really accept you, I’m talking about the locals, whether it be the rich, the locals in this, but I’m talking about business, your business acumen and your business community and stuff on the island.

37:50 –> 37:55  Cabous
   They have so much bullshit that comes to the island that they first want to see through that facade.

37:55 –> 37:57  Cabous
   Is this guy really as genius as what he is?

37:57 –> 38:01  Cabous
   Is he really just a pleasant guy or is that just the bullshit?

38:01 –> 38:04  Cabous
   And until they see through that, then they accept you.

38:04 –> 38:11  Cabous
   And it’s been so real in the sense that people often, and people screw people over on an island like this.

38:11 –> 38:12  Cabous
   I mean, 60 kilometers.

38:12 –> 38:17  Cabous
   I mean, if you screw me over, I’m going to find Flip and Flip’s going to find Brandon.

38:17 –> 38:18  Cabous
   Before you know, you’re in the peripheral.

38:19 –> 38:23  Cabous
   And to get a second chance on this island, it doesn’t happen.

38:23 –> 38:28  Cabous
   And before you know, you’re on the peripheral and nobody wants to invite you for a game of golf.

38:28 –> 38:32  Cabous
   Nobody wants to invite you to any place anymore, et cetera, et cetera.

38:32 –> 38:36  Cabous
   And to sit with your missus or with your wife or girlfriend every night at home.

38:36 –> 38:37  Cabous
   You’ve got no mates.

38:37 –> 38:38  Cabous
   Join your home alone.

38:38 –> 38:40  Cabous
   Let me tell you, the island even can become small.

38:40 –> 38:42  Cabous
   And then the people just decide, listen.

38:42 –> 38:44  Cabous
   They just head for the hills and take them.

38:44 –> 38:46  Cabous
   They don’t try it out of here, never to return again.

38:47 –> 38:52  Cabous
   So, yeah, I think it’s so important to be so real.

38:52 –> 38:53  Cabous
   That’s it.

38:53 –> 38:56  Cabous
   You know, I’m actually glad I am my age.

38:56 –> 38:57  Cabous
   Let me tell you.

38:58 –> 39:05  Cabous
   I mean, when it comes to work ethic and work code and just the old days of just, I’m in with you, Flip.

39:05 –> 39:06  Cabous
   I’m going to drop you, brother.

39:06 –> 39:07  Cabous
   We’re partners.

39:07 –> 39:07  Cabous
   Let’s go.

39:07 –> 39:09  Cabous
   It’s so sad.

39:09 –> 39:11  Cabous
   I mean, you’re in a daily basis.

39:11 –> 39:15  Cabous
   We can all probably tell a lot of stories of mates that have gone into partnerships with people.

39:16 –> 39:19  Cabous
   And it just got fair when the money started coming in, which is so sad anyway.

39:19 –> 39:21  Cabous
   But then people just change before you know it.

39:21 –> 39:24  Cabous
   Partnership is a sinking ship and stuff.

39:24 –> 39:25  Cabous
   So, yeah.

39:25 –> 39:27  Cabous
   Yeah, Brandon, you’re so true.

39:27 –> 39:27  Cabous
   Be yourself.

39:27 –> 39:28  Cabous
   Just be real.

39:28 –> 39:29  Flip
   Yeah.

39:29 –> 39:31  Flip
   That’s actually very true.

39:32 –> 39:33  Flip
   It’s actually funny.

39:33 –> 39:48  Flip
   As a rugby player, we always have to be, and Brandon, I’m pretty sure, in Taekwondo, as maybe the listeners don’t know, is that you don’t only defend a brand relationship, but you can give a very good snot club as well.

39:48 –> 39:53  Flip
   You’re a seven-degree black belt in Taekwondo, if I’m not mistaken.

39:53 –> 39:58  Flip
   So, you must behave when you sell strategies.

39:58 –> 40:08  Flip
   But, you know, that identity of being the humble sportsman and always saying sorry and being smiley, and, you know, it’s not always, even in the French, I see it as well.

40:08 –> 40:14  Flip
   You know, if you sit back and let other people take the space to speak, you know, you will get trampled on.

40:14 –> 40:17  Flip
   So, you have to constantly defend yourself.

40:19 –> 40:29  Flip
   How did you, Brandon, get, you know, almost chameleon into that new identity and to Americanize what you know and what your strengths are?

40:29 –> 40:34  Brannon
   Yeah, I think, you know, at the age of 12, I started Taekwondo.

40:34 –> 40:41  Brannon
   It’s a Korean martial art, and there’s a lot of moral precept or moral culture that’s intertwined into the discipline.

40:43 –> 40:50  Brannon
   Coming from South Africa, you know, you, when you want to be a breaker, you can get a snot club.

40:50 –> 40:55  Brannon
   And so, I learned from a young age, you know, you always have to be humble.

40:55 –> 40:57  Brannon
   There’s always somebody stronger than you.

40:57 –> 41:12  Brannon
   But with that notion and understanding that humility, you know, the pillars, or there was a composition in Taekwondo that we talk about, that is, it’s courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, and indomitable spirit.

41:12 –> 41:16  Brannon
   And those are five principles that I’ve always carried.

41:16 –> 41:24  Brannon
   And with that, you also need to understand, you’ve got to be firm to the firm, but always willing to the weak.

41:24 –> 41:29  Brannon
   So, that principle and philosophy is something that I’ve carried into my work environment.

41:29 –> 41:41  Brannon
   When you’re reading the room, and there’s that strength, having the conviction and confidence to stand in that with humility.

41:41 –> 41:49  Cabous
   You know, there’s always been, yes, we’ve had obviously happy days in our country, but when we grew up, I mean, I was part and parcel.

41:49 –> 42:02  Cabous
   My dad was very much part and parcel of the whole apartheid era, which, as a Dutchman, he, a proper staunch Dutchman, he knew he had to go along with that apartheid regime, which he knew it wasn’t the right thing to do.

42:02 –> 42:09  Brannon
   But he realized as a family that if he didn’t support that, he couldn’t send us to varsity, he couldn’t send us to schools and stuff, et cetera, et cetera.

42:09 –> 42:13  Cabous
   And he always told me, listen, you need to find out one day for yourself what is good and what is bad.

42:14 –> 42:15  Cabous
   So, dad, tell me.

42:15 –> 42:16  Cabous
   I can’t tell you.

42:16 –> 42:18  Cabous
   I don’t want to tell you.

42:18 –> 42:23  Cabous
   So, you’re always out there grasping and looking for something.

42:23 –> 42:26  Cabous
   And I think through that it becomes a little bit of a struggle.

42:29 –> 42:33  Cabous
   And through struggle, you want to find something to get to the better.

42:33 –> 42:38  Cabous
   So, I mean, that spirit of always trying to find out what is beyond that white picket fence.

42:38 –> 42:51  Cabous
   Isn’t it something that’s always been there tempting us to, like, reach a little bit further, go a little bit further, go into the unknown a bit more, push the barriers, push your ceiling.

42:51 –> 42:53  Cabous
   When is enough enough?

42:53 –> 42:55  Cabous
   I’m going to know more.

42:55 –> 42:56  Cabous
   I’m going to get better.

42:56 –> 42:57  Cabous
   I’m going to endure.

42:57 –> 42:58  Cabous
   I don’t know.

42:58 –> 43:00  Cabous
   That’s just, I don’t know.

43:00 –> 43:01  Cabous
   I’m just a rugby player.

43:01 –> 43:02  Cabous
   It has been.

43:02 –> 43:04  Cabous
   Brandon is the marketing guru.

43:04 –> 43:06  Cabous
   But that’s just my take on it.

43:06 –> 43:10  Cabous
   It’s just, I don’t know.

43:10 –> 43:15  Cabous
   I can see on the island, I mean, sometimes when times get tough, you have to dig a bit deeper.

43:15 –> 43:17  Cabous
   You have to grovel a bit more.

43:17 –> 43:18  Cabous
   I mean, it doesn’t happen yet.

43:18 –> 43:21  Cabous
   It’s just, they just not give up on the island.

43:21 –> 43:29  Cabous
   I mean, it’s just probably because it’s an island and there’s a little bit more, hey, tomorrow’s another day or we’ll sort it out tomorrow.

43:29 –> 43:30  Cabous
   We’ll do it now.

43:30 –> 43:31  Cabous
   Let’s get it finished.

43:31 –> 43:32  Cabous
   Let’s get going.

43:32 –> 43:34  Cabous
   Let’s get it and move on from there.

43:34 –> 43:35  Cabous
   Get it better.

43:35 –> 43:36  Cabous
   Whatever.

43:37 –> 43:37  Cabous
   I don’t know.

43:37 –> 43:39  Cabous
   What’s your smile on the cake coming?

43:39 –> 43:42  Brannon
   No, I mean, I totally resonate with that.

43:42 –> 43:53  Brannon
   You know, I mean, if you look at our ancestry, you know, coming from Europe down, my ancestry was Eastern Europe, Lithuania, Latvia.

43:54 –> 43:59  Brannon
   And, you know, they escaped persecution and they came down to South Africa.

43:59 –> 44:00  Brannon
   They were pioneers.

44:00 –> 44:03  Brannon
   And the same with yourselves.

44:03 –> 44:13  Brannon
   And so we left our countries, which I think in itself instills resilience, in that generation.

44:13 –> 44:19  Brannon
   There’s that coat of arms for survival amongst the family unit.

44:19 –> 44:19  Brannon
   We have to.

44:21 –> 44:26  Brannon
   And so then with that first phase comes the next phase and that’s legacy, right?

44:26 –> 44:31  Brannon
   And so as a father, it’s like I’m going, I’m doing this for my family.

44:31 –> 44:32  Brannon
   I’m doing this for my kids.

44:32 –> 44:37  Brannon
   I want them not to go through those trials and tribulations that I had to go through.

44:37 –> 44:43  Brannon
   So I think inherently that that resilience comes through.

44:43 –> 44:50  Brannon
   And I think to be candid, yeah, and to be vulnerable, you know, when I spent all those years in my training,

44:51 –> 44:57  Brannon
   to some, they would look at that as something which is strong.

44:57 –> 45:01  Brannon
   It personifies strength or resilience.

45:01 –> 45:03  Brannon
   But you always have internal struggles.

45:03 –> 45:06  Brannon
   It doesn’t matter where you are or what you achieve in life.

45:07 –> 45:16  Brannon
   When I achieve my seventh degree, which was always my goal, at one point in my training, it was something that was impossible.

45:16 –> 45:21  Brannon
   But when I did, it was almost a return to self.

45:21 –> 45:24  Brannon
   You know, it was a unification of myself.

45:24 –> 45:29  Brannon
   And in Korea, they have a term called tongil, which means unification.

45:29 –> 45:36  Brannon
   So the last sixth degree or sixth dan before your seventh dan, the name of that is tongil.

45:36 –> 45:43  Brannon
   And once I’d achieved my seventh degree, it was a weird thing that happened to me.

45:43 –> 45:50  Brannon
   You know, some people, they would take that and they would wear that, those credentials,

45:50 –> 45:59  Brannon
   and they would almost command a certain level of respect or entitlement from people in front of them because they’ve achieved something.

45:59 –> 46:01  Brannon
   But for me, it was the opposite.

46:01 –> 46:03  Brannon
   It actually made me more humble.

46:03 –> 46:08  Brannon
   And at that point, I realized true power comes from softness.

46:10 –> 46:15  Brannon
   And that’s when things started getting a little bit complex for me.

46:15 –> 46:24  Brannon
   I almost had an identity crisis because I was like, okay, well, I had this interpretation that I have to achieve certain things in life to feel strong.

46:24 –> 46:29  Brannon
   And once I achieved them, I was like, but hang on a minute.

46:29 –> 46:30  Brannon
   There’s something totally different here.

46:30 –> 46:31  Brannon
   There’s still a void.

46:31 –> 46:38  Brannon
   And so that’s when the real work started, was in the silence of my own heart.

46:40 –> 46:48  Brannon
   But, you know, flip to your point, it’s, I think, yeah, you just want to, you want to be the best that you can be.

46:48 –> 46:57  Brannon
   You know, a good friend of mine, a South African in Australia always said to me, you know, Brandon, you playing small doesn’t serve the world.

46:57 –> 47:00  Brannon
   So there’s that.

47:00 –> 47:06  Brannon
   But then at the same time, it’s just, we now go into legacy and you want it, you’re doing it for your kids.

47:06 –> 47:10  Brannon
   You’re doing it for, for, for what you leave behind.

47:10 –> 47:15  Brannon
   But I think South Africa really gave me a beautiful foundation in that regard.

47:15 –> 47:16  Flip
   That’s incredible.

47:16 –> 47:18  Flip
   And thank you for sharing.

47:18 –> 47:23  Flip
   You know, I’m a big fan of the sports narrative and how it translates into the corporate world.

47:23 –> 47:40  Flip
   And I think you, you gave us a little two minute masterclass there about, you know, and what it is, is, is, is, is, you know, working hard to get your success, you know, but be, be, be humble about it and chase the, and chase the next thing without chasing your tail all the time.

47:40 –> 47:48  Flip
   There’s a great book, Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance that I read a few years ago.

47:48 –> 47:57
   And one of the stories or one of the sayings he says in the book, and it’s really to that theme that, that almost the identity crisis that comes with success.

47:58 –> 48:06  Flip
   And what he says is for him, he eventually realized that it’s the side of the mountain that sustains life, not the peak.

48:06 –> 48:13  Justinus
   Because whatever peak you, you, you reach, you actually end up with a better view to see more higher peaks.

48:13 –> 48:19  Justinus
   So if your identity is so vested in, in, in, in coming to the peak, that is exactly what happens.

48:19 –> 48:30  Justinus
   Whereas your identity is in the journey and in the becoming rather than the destination, then you can embrace whatever you’re busy with and use that as a vehicle to improve yourself.

48:30 –> 48:35  Justinus
   And then reaching the peak is just one step in the process of becoming better.

48:35 –> 48:40  Justinus
   So that is such a, that’s such a, and for me, that was the core as well.

48:40 –> 48:46  Justinus
   Because a lot of, in my early career, I was motivated by financial success and I wanted to make my first million rand.

48:46 –> 48:48  Justinus
   And then I wanted to make 10 million rand.

48:48 –> 48:55  Justinus
   And every time I would get there and, and, and it would just be, oh, well, now obviously my goal needs to be bigger.

48:55 –> 49:07  Justinus
   And it was only once I sort of adjusted to, to that way of thinking that I realized that the actual goal is just a means for improvement rather than, than a goal and of itself.

49:07 –> 49:25  Flip
   One thing that, that Flip and I talk about a lot is this, this, and I think you, you touched on it a little, Brandon, as well, is this idea of legacy and of doing things that now will go to the next step and leave the world in a better place.

49:25 –> 49:28  Flip
   And I mean, all four of us, obviously very passionate about South Africa.

49:28 –> 49:35  Flip
   And I often talk about what can we do, especially as expats to help build a country that works for everybody.

49:35 –> 49:48  Justinus
   So talk to us a little bit about your view on legacy and, and what, what are some of the things, I mean, Kaboos, you spoke earlier about this idea of, of going to the neighborhoods and helping people paint and, and doing things really to, to uplift the community.

49:48 –> 49:54  Justinus
   What’s some other things about legacy that really inspires you and, and that makes you want to do things to, to help?

49:54 –> 50:01  Cabous
   You know, for me, for me, and then I always take it back to, we, and it brings it back to what Brandon was just saying about being real.

50:01 –> 50:03  Cabous
   We had our motto and our school blazer.

50:03 –> 50:05  Cabous
   I wasn’t in any fancy school.

50:05 –> 50:07  Cabous
   Our motto was be yourself.

50:07 –> 50:08  Cabous
   So be yourself.

50:08 –> 50:14  Cabous
   And that’s something that I’ve always wanted to try to follow with it.

50:14 –> 50:18  Brannon
   But was it my rugby career that I had, or was it in a corporate environment?

50:18 –> 50:20  Brannon
   It was just not being an island.

50:20 –> 50:23  Brannon
   And for me, that’s, that’s what my legacy is all about.

50:23 –> 50:24  Brannon
   Really.

50:24 –> 50:25  Brannon
   It’s just be yourself.

50:25 –> 50:28  Cabous
   I think that’s, that’s what I want to leave behind.

50:28 –> 50:33  Cabous
   I don’t want, I don’t want anything, anybody to think he was this, or he was this hero.

50:33 –> 50:34  Cabous
   He did this good.

50:34 –> 50:43  Cabous
   You know, if they could just take me for Caboce and Caboce, what you, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the whole package that you’re seeing on TV right now.

50:43 –> 50:44  Cabous
   On this interview, that’s me.

50:44 –> 50:48  Cabous
   I fancy, as a grace is about certain things.

50:48 –> 50:54  Cabous
   But yes, I’ve got my, I’ve got my values and I’ve got my principles and what a good place to work from.

50:55 –> 51:06  Cabous
   And, and I’ve been fortunate that it’s been, been not only God given to me, but I mean, it’s given to me by my parents that were, instilled that type of values and morals and ethics into me.

51:06 –> 51:09  Cabous
   And that’s the type of legacy I’ve found.

51:09 –> 51:15  Cabous
   So if I do have my funeral, you maybe know that somebody is going there, please take a video and send it to me.

51:15 –> 51:18  Cabous
   And I’m just, he was actually at my funeral one day.

51:18 –> 51:24  Cabous
   And I’ll tell you what, what legacy I left behind for the individuals that were there at the sermon.

51:25 –> 51:27  Brannon
   I’m on the same page as you Caboce.

51:27 –> 51:34  Brannon
   I think I don’t need plaques or I don’t need, you know, uh, impressive memorials.

51:34 –> 51:39  Brannon
   I just want my family, I think first and foremost, to know that I gave it my best.

51:39 –> 51:48  Brannon
   Um, but then I think from a South African context, you know, I, I, I’ve, I’ve always made it a point to, to extend in hand to, to people.

51:49 –> 51:52  Brannon
   Um, that were once journeyed where I was.

51:52 –> 51:54  Brannon
   And I think that’s part of our give back.

51:54 –> 52:00  Brannon
   So whenever there’s South Africans coming to the U S I always see how I can try and introduce them to people.

52:00 –> 52:03  Brannon
   Um, see if I can add value.

52:03 –> 52:05  Brannon
   And it always comes a full circle.

52:05 –> 52:10  Brannon
   Uh, you know, Robert Kiyosaki talks about the favor bank.

52:11 –> 52:20  Brannon
   And so at some point, you know, you, you’ve got to do these things, uh, you know, unconditionally, but whether it comes back, whether it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter.

52:20 –> 52:27  Brannon
   Um, and I think, I think that’s powerful actually, um, to, to give unconditionally.

52:27 –> 52:31  Brannon
   Um, I think that, that, that that’s made the better place.

52:31 –> 52:33  Cabous
   Well, that’s so true.

52:33 –> 52:36  Cabous
   You know, my, my dad, you know, little principles in life.

52:36 –> 52:39  Cabous
   And then, but it just does basic things.

52:39 –> 52:45  Cabous
   And it just brings me back to being, being simple and just having those basic values and, and, and morals.

52:45 –> 52:50  Cabous
   You can, if everything goes pear-shaped, you can fall down into a certain base.

52:50 –> 52:51  Cabous
   You’ve got that.

52:51 –> 52:52  Cabous
   And you’ve got those basic things.

52:52 –> 53:07  Cabous
   So what is nicer than seeing people these days with just manners, keeps having manners, just an old person is still opening the door for his missus, although he knows he’s got an automotive, remote for his car to open the door for you.

53:07 –> 53:09  Cabous
   He’ll still walk and still open the door for you.

53:09 –> 53:18  Cabous
   It’s beautiful to watch people standing up with people and just to fall back into those things that really mean a lot to me and counts a lot to me in my life.

53:18 –> 53:23  Cabous
   I think I’m going full circle now where it was brought up and I was taught to me.

53:23 –> 53:27  Cabous
   Those are the things that, that, that, that mean things to me in my life at the moment.

53:27 –> 53:40  Cabous
   Those are the things that I don’t have to go down the road that I don’t really regard as being part of my essence and being part of my journey on this earth at the moment.

53:40 –> 53:47  Cabous
   So, yeah, I think, uh, Brandon, I think I’m going to revert back to you the whole evening when I said being real, just be yourself.

53:48 –> 53:49  Cabous
   Be there for people.

53:49 –> 53:54  Cabous
   I mean, I think like you said, you get your nail on the head when you said, but you said Africans, you always want to reach out.

53:54 –> 54:00  Cabous
   I’m having a great, great relationship with my wife at the moment, which I really love and everything.

54:00 –> 54:03  Cabous
   I hope she watches this podcast, this interview.

54:03 –> 54:12  Cabous
   And yeah, just, you know, just to, just to be there for people without making a song and a fuss.

54:12 –> 54:15  Cabous
   I mean, it comes naturally, it comes naturally, it doesn’t come naturally.

54:15 –> 54:19  Cabous
   I think it’s all fake and yeah, so be it, but it’s just to be there for people.

54:19 –> 54:23  Cabous
   And that, I think so much so that South Africans are so hospitable.

54:23 –> 54:27  Cabous
   Now you can relate to a few of the different countries and people and ethnic groups that come to the island.

54:27 –> 54:30  Cabous
   You can see it with more or less a little bit like them, but yes.

54:31 –> 54:41  Cabous
   I’m yet to meet a country because I played rugby in the States, believe it or not, like those years when they played at LA, Denver Highlanders, the university and Boulder.

54:41 –> 54:43  Cabous
   And then we played for LA rugby club.

54:44 –> 54:46  Cabous
   But even those days, Americans make a big fuss.

54:46 –> 54:50  Cabous
   Hey dude, you must come to Italy for a barbie, man.

54:50 –> 54:51  Cabous
   And make a big fuss.

54:51 –> 54:52  Cabous
   I was never invited to any Barbies.

54:52 –> 54:55  Cabous
   I don’t think I’m going to, I’m pleased to have it at a barbie.

54:55 –> 54:57  Cabous
   But it wasn’t real.

54:57 –> 54:58  Cabous
   It wasn’t like an essay.

54:58 –> 54:59  Cabous
   I want to help you.

54:59 –> 55:00  Cabous
   Was I want to help you?

55:00 –> 55:01  Cabous
   Was I want to help you?

55:01 –> 55:02  Cabous
   I’m trying to help you.

55:02 –> 55:04  Cabous
   Because you know, that’s, that’s what we South Africans are all about.

55:04 –> 55:06  Cabous
   I think most of them, they just got that.

55:06 –> 55:09  Cabous
   It’s in our genes, it’s in our makeup.

55:10 –> 55:10  Brannon
   So true.

55:10 –> 55:13  Brannon
   I think that’s when people come visit South Africa.

55:13 –> 55:15  Brannon
   One of the things I always talk about is the people, right?

55:15 –> 55:18  Brannon
   And I think that’s to your point.

55:18 –> 55:19  Brannon
   We welcome them.

55:19 –> 55:20  Brannon
   We were like, okay, where do you want to go?

55:20 –> 55:21  Brannon
   You should go to that restaurant.

55:21 –> 55:22  Brannon
   You should do this.

55:22 –> 55:23  Brannon
   Don’t do that safari.

55:23 –> 55:24  Brannon
   Do this one.

55:24 –> 55:39  Flip
   So as we draw towards the end, I want to ask just specifically in both your contexts, if somebody is considering going to Mauritius or somebody is considering going to LA, we’ll make it specific to LA because the US obviously is so big.

55:39 –> 55:49  Justinus
   But if somebody is thinking about that as potentially a next step in their evolution or career, what do you think is some of the things I should consider?

55:49 –> 55:52  Justinus
   What is the opportunities that is abound?

55:52 –> 55:59  Justinus
   And what do you wish you had thought about or knew before you took that leap?

56:00 –> 56:05  Cabous
   Yeah, from my point of view is, no, my point of view, I’m going to give it a whole point here now.

56:05 –> 56:09  Cabous
   If you don’t come by your property from here in Mauritius, because what we’re selling is our lifestyle.

56:09 –> 56:12  Cabous
   I’m going to be very unhappy with this.

56:15 –> 56:20  Cabous
   I think there’s obviously the island, unfortunately, we don’t have a lot.

56:20 –> 56:21  Cabous
   We don’t have minerals.

56:21 –> 56:27  Cabous
   We’ve got fishing rights, which I think a lot has been given away probably to the Chinese already because they built our new air force.

56:27 –> 56:29  Cabous
   They’re building a lot of roads.

56:29 –> 56:33  Cabous
   So the hospitality sector is something that people can always bench into.

56:33 –> 56:40  Cabous
   One of the big cash cows at the moment, one of the golden boosters on the island is, believe it or not, property side.

56:40 –> 56:45  Cabous
   And there’s a lot of people, unfortunately, it’s not that everybody now loves Mauritius.

56:46 –> 56:51  Cabous
   But the worst that goes in Europe and South Africa, the better becomes for us.

56:51 –> 56:59  Cabous
   I’m not saying I don’t want it to go bad in ISA, especially, obviously, because South African will always be in a proud one as well.

56:59 –> 57:02  Cabous
   But this is now home away from home.

57:02 –> 57:06  Cabous
   So, yeah, I mean, hospitality sector is always something big on the island.

57:08 –> 57:16  Cabous
   But, you know, at the end of the day, when you sometimes speak property to people and you sell the concept of, you know, the guys have got money.

57:16 –> 57:23  Cabous
   They’ll be happy to tell you they’ve got a 20 million grand house in Dainfin Estates or 15 million grand house in Clannins Alts and Stanbatch or wherever.

57:23 –> 57:28  Cabous
   You tell the guy to flip you, obviously, you’re very successful, but it started that house.

57:28 –> 57:29  Cabous
   And you know what?

57:29 –> 57:32  Cabous
   That house, that size, that price, you’re never going to see again.

57:32 –> 57:34  Cabous
   You’re probably going to pay double because what we’re selling is a lifestyle.

57:35 –> 57:49  Cabous
   And I think that’s where a lot of people like me, you guys aren’t there yet, when you come to your last quarter, I think it’s all about gearing down and looking more towards a bit of a lifestyle.

57:49 –> 57:51  Cabous
   And that’s essentially what Mauritius is really all about.

57:51 –> 58:00  Cabous
   And it’s, yeah, people come here, but they don’t always tell you it’s about the tax breaks because that’s really what it’s probably all about to most of them.

58:00 –> 58:04  Cabous
   But I mean, yeah, I think it’s about the lifestyle that we can offer in Mauritius.

58:04 –> 58:12  Cabous
   And it’s an easy country probably to delve into because everything gets conducted in English, yeah.

58:12 –> 58:14  Cabous
   Business, everything gets conducted.

58:14 –> 58:15  Cabous
   So, yeah.

58:15 –> 58:20  Cabous
   For us here, the last thing just quickly, it’s very much price driven because the island’s so poor.

58:22 –> 58:28  Cabous
   So, if you’ve got a Rolls-Royce product and you’re selling it at many Cooper prices, you’re in the market.

58:28 –> 58:33  Cabous
   But you’re going to charge Rolls-Royce prices for your product and it’s not going to work.

58:33 –> 58:39  Cabous
   And please, whoever’s coming to Mauritius, just one leap of faith that I need to give you guys.

58:39 –> 58:41  Cabous
   Please do your homework before you get here.

58:42 –> 58:46  Cabous
   Because whenever it works in your country, it’s not necessarily going to work in Mauritius.

58:46 –> 58:53  Cabous
   But you need to understand the culture, the face of the island, whatever, however it functions, how you get the machine rolling.

58:53 –> 58:56  Cabous
   It’s completely different to where you guys are from.

58:56 –> 58:58  Cabous
   So, it’s an island environment.

58:58 –> 59:00  Cabous
   It’s got a different face and culture.

59:00 –> 59:02  Cabous
   So, please do your homework before you come.

59:02 –> 59:05  Cabous
   Or phone me if you need any advice.

59:05 –> 59:08  Cabous
   I’m not saying I’ve got all the answers, but I can at least point you in the right direction.

59:09 –> 59:11  Brannon
   Kaboz, you segued for me.

59:11 –> 59:21  Brannon
   I think it’s, you know, and to give it a spin back to the podcast, you know, I think winning the away game for me is, it’s not about beating the system, right?

59:21 –> 59:26  Brannon
   It’s about learning how to navigate it without losing yourself, without, with not losing yourself.

59:26 –> 59:36  Brannon
   And, you know, I think coming into the Americas, particularly the U.S., I think, again, you know, I mentioned on it earlier,

59:36 –> 59:43  Brannon
   but you just need to be prepared that the U.S. is, it’s about clarity, it’s about speed, it’s about defensibility.

59:43 –> 59:57  Brannon
   And as South Africans, we come here with trust, context, and continuity to some degree as kind of like our decision-making points.

59:58 –> 01:00:11  Brannon
   So, yeah, I think you, one lesson that I did learn moving here is I was fortunate that I still had a business that’s operational in South Africa.

01:00:12 –> 01:00:17  Brannon
   And I always had a fallback in those moments when things weren’t going well.

01:00:17 –> 01:00:25  Brannon
   So, I was, we always had the ability to apportion billing across different markets.

01:00:25 –> 01:00:29  Brannon
   And I think that, that flared well in our favor.

01:00:29 –> 01:00:37  Brannon
   Because there are moments, especially in my industry, there’s a lot of spade work before you actually get a deal.

01:00:37 –> 01:00:43  Brannon
   You know, it can sometimes can take like up to a year before a project kicks off.

01:00:43 –> 01:00:47  Brannon
   And so, you know, how do you sustain yourselves in those pockets?

01:00:47 –> 01:00:50  Brannon
   So, you’ve got to have that continuity throughout.

01:00:50 –> 01:00:54  Brannon
   Yeah, homework is everything.

01:00:54 –> 01:00:55  Brannon
   You’ve got to have a plan.

01:00:55 –> 01:01:03  Brannon
   And one of my mentors in the past was an amazing South African by the name of Robert Mabry.

01:01:03 –> 01:01:06  Brannon
   And he’s in the whirling gas sector.

01:01:06 –> 01:01:14  Brannon
   And, you know, he’s got, I mean, he restructured ExxonMobil and TransCanada and these kind of companies.

01:01:14 –> 01:01:20  Brannon
   And he always used to say to me, Bran, a fool with a plan can outsmart a genius with none.

01:01:20 –> 01:01:25  Brannon
   You know, and I’d be like, okay, Rob, I get it.

01:01:25 –> 01:01:26  Brannon
   All right.

01:01:26 –> 01:01:30  Brannon
   So, even if you have a plan, it’s something more than nothing.

01:01:30 –> 01:01:34  Brannon
   And it may not work, but you refine it as you go.

01:01:34 –> 01:01:36  Brannon
   So, I think, yeah, have a team.

01:01:37 –> 01:01:45  Brannon
   I think, you know, I’m, again, in the next process of looking for a new coach, a business coach.

01:01:45 –> 01:01:49  Brannon
   You have to, you know, as Justina said, you’ve got to be vulnerable.

01:01:49 –> 01:01:51  Brannon
   You’ve got to be willing to learn all the time.

01:01:51 –> 01:01:53  Brannon
   It doesn’t matter where you are in life.

01:01:53 –> 01:01:56  Brannon
   And, yeah, you’ve got to be coachable.

01:01:56 –> 01:02:05  Brannon
   So, it’s sometimes good to put yourself out there, get somebody new, chop you at the knees and build up again.

01:02:06 –> 01:02:08  Cabous
   Bran and Lee, have you ever thought about writing a book?

01:02:08 –> 01:02:10  Brannon
   Wow, thank you.

01:02:10 –> 01:02:11  Brannon
   It’s an honor.

01:02:11 –> 01:02:19  Cabous
   Because with all these anecdotes, I’m trying to remember, I’m trying to, I should have written down all these bloody anecdotes you said tonight.

01:02:19 –> 01:02:20  Cabous
   I’m trying to remember them.

01:02:20 –> 01:02:23  Cabous
   The next one just becomes better than the previous one.

01:02:23 –> 01:02:24  Cabous
   I can’t remember half of them.

01:02:24 –> 01:02:35  Cabous
   If Fred can tell us what were those seven things you learned at Taekwondo, if you can just tell me what those five words were that you mentioned, I’d be very impressed.

01:02:36 –> 01:02:38  Flip
   I’ll be very impressed.

01:02:38 –> 01:02:39  Flip
   I can’t remember I’m the Ford, yeah.

01:02:39 –> 01:02:42  Flip
   I’m supposed to remember things for a lot.

01:02:42 –> 01:02:43  Brannon
   Yeah.

01:02:43 –> 01:02:44  Brannon
   No, I mean, yeah.

01:02:44 –> 01:02:47  Brannon
   Courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, and domitible spirit.

01:02:47 –> 01:02:52  Brannon
   So, you know, you’ve got to have your composition.

01:02:52 –> 01:02:58  Brannon
   It’s your tenets, you know, in life that carry you through those hard times.

01:02:59 –> 01:03:00
   That’s awesome.

01:03:00 –> 01:03:03
   Well, thank you very much, guys.

01:03:03 –> 01:03:06
   That was really special.

01:03:06 –> 01:03:07
   It’s amazing.

01:03:07 –> 01:03:08
   It’s the first time.

01:03:08 –> 01:03:11  Brannon
   It’s the biggest time difference I think we’ve ever had.

01:03:11 –> 01:03:16  Brannon
   It was seven o’clock in the morning for Brandon in L.A. and seven o’clock in the evening for Cabo.

01:03:16 –> 01:03:20  Brannon
   So, we literally spanned halfway around the world in this interview.

01:03:20 –> 01:03:23
   And I think that’s a little bit of what winning the Y game is about.

01:03:23 –> 01:03:29
   It’s like connecting to South Africans, successful South Africans like you fellows all around the world.

01:03:29 –> 01:03:33  Justinus
   And we really appreciate it and loved hearing your stories.

01:03:33 –> 01:03:35  Justinus
   And thank you for being with us and being vulnerable.

01:03:35 –> 01:03:37  Cabous
   Yeah, guys, just from my point of view, thanks.

01:03:37 –> 01:03:41  Cabous
   I mean, Brandon, you said that you were more behind the scenes.

01:03:41 –> 01:03:46  Cabous
   I mean, I haven’t done this thing in one of these interviews like this for ages as well.

01:03:46 –> 01:03:50  Cabous
   So, I just want to say thank you so much for inviting me as well.

01:03:50 –> 01:03:53  Cabous
   Brandon, it was obviously awesome to meet you as well.

01:03:53 –> 01:03:54  Cabous
   All the best.

01:03:54 –> 01:03:56  Cabous
   But in L.A., look after yourself.

01:03:56 –> 01:03:57  Cabous
   Go from strength to strength.

01:03:57 –> 01:03:58  Cabous
   So, thanks.

01:03:59 –> 01:03:59  Cabous
   Much appreciated.

01:03:59 –> 01:04:01  Cabous
   We didn’t really know one another.

01:04:01 –> 01:04:04  Cabous
   A little bit of older than you.

01:04:04 –> 01:04:07  Cabous
   And just to say thanks.

01:04:07 –> 01:04:11  Cabous
   Thanks for you guys at the back offices and everything for putting this together.

01:04:11 –> 01:04:12  Cabous
   Much appreciated.

01:04:12 –> 01:04:16  Flip
   We’ll come visit if you can still give us a table at the beach bar.

01:04:16 –> 01:04:17  Cabous
   I’m still organizing.

01:04:17 –> 01:04:22  Cabous
   I’m not going to dance on the table for you, but I can organize the table.

01:04:22 –> 01:04:24  Brannon
   And I echo that.

01:04:24 –> 01:04:24  Brannon
   Thank you.

01:04:24 –> 01:04:26  Brannon
   It’s been an absolute privilege.

01:04:26 –> 01:04:29  Brannon
   Cabo is wonderful to share.

01:04:29 –> 01:04:31  Brannon
   Share that stage of vulnerability with you.

01:04:31 –> 01:04:34  Brannon
   And Flip and Justinas, thank you for being the glue.

01:04:34 –> 01:04:40  Brannon
   Thank you for affording the South African diaspora platform like this.

01:04:40 –> 01:04:41  Brannon
   Yeah, truly a privilege.

01:04:41 –> 01:04:42  Brannon
   Thank you.

01:04:42 –> 01:04:47  Brannon
   And if you’re ever on the West Coast or in L.A., please let me know.

01:04:47 –> 01:04:51  Brannon
   And we’d love to continue the conversation.