Episode 11: Built different

[00:00:00] Justinus: Winning the way game is about what happens when old rules stop working.

[00:00:04] Pat: I just remember having goosebumps for the entire anthem.

[00:00:07] Justinus: This isn’t pressure, this is rugby. This is a privilege.

[00:00:10] Flip: 2016, uh, you left the shores for Paris and then stopped because of concussion.

[00:00:14] Pat: I had my first real heavy concussion. The decision was that playing contact sport was not a very good idea, so I had to retire.

[00:00:22] Bruce: It was a moment where it was a case of, if not now, then when

[00:00:27] Pat: the purpose of being a father has far outweighed any other purpose I’ve ever had in my life.

[00:00:33] Bruce: There is nothing like a shock to the system.

[00:00:36] Pat: I think as South Africans, we are extremely resilient.

[00:00:39] Bruce: We don’t know what the future’s going to look like.

[00:00:41] Well, I’ll tell you what the future looks like. It’s more diversified. It’s not broken. It’s just different.

[00:00:57] Justinus: Welcome to Winning the Away Game. Winning the Away game is about what happens when old rules stop working. Today we are speaking to Pat Lambe, one of the most trusted young leaders in South African rugby history, whose career ended early due to concussion, forced at 28. He’s now a successful property developer in catering, working with the Collins Group, and enjoys family life with his wife and three son in this beautiful region of South Africa.

[00:01:24] And Bruce Whitfield, who’s built his career by decoding chaos. I first met Bruce on the airways of 7 0 2 many years ago. Started as a journalist and is now a global speaker a podcast host, , for shows like S Week Financial Freedom Pot, and the Think Big Series,

[00:01:43] he’s also author with published books like It’s About Time, the One Thing and Genius, how to Thrive on the Edge of Chaos. In this episode, we explore how decisions get made when outcomes are unclear, what identity loss feels like when you arrive to early or too late, or how to rebolt confidence and direction without certainty flip.

[00:02:06] Are you ready?

[00:02:07] Flip: Justina’s, great guest we have today. The Kid Wonder Pat Lamby himself. And the voice, the voice that kept me awake many mornings on the N one. Bruce Woodfield. I’m so excited to have you guys. Bruce Pat, welcome. Uh, where are you guys joining us from?

[00:02:23] Bruce: You first Go on. Be I’m, I’ll be polite this time for once.

[00:02:27] Pat: Thanks Bruce. Thanks. Just, and flip I am joining you guys from the north coast of K Zin.

[00:02:33] Flip: Lovely Bruce.

[00:02:34] Bruce: And I’m in London in a, in a gentleman’s club. You know what gentleman’s clubs are like? I’m not wearing a tie. I am wearing a jacket at the moment. They’re very, very serious places and I must just show you because it’s so, such a cool space.

[00:02:46] There’s my desk. So clubs aren’t all what they used to be. Uh, this one is called The Homegrown Club and it’s full of entrepreneurs and amazing people who once we’re done here, I’m gonna go meet and bully to come to a talk I’m giving you tonight. So yeah, we are, uh, in Central London at the moment.

[00:03:04] Flip: Absolutely wonderful. It’s good to be all over. We can see Pat, uh, is in the lovely, uh, east coast of South Africa. Um, the only one not wearing a jersey,

[00:03:13] Justinus: not

[00:03:14] Flip: in minus 22 like me.

[00:03:15] Justinus: Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:18] Flip: So we have a little, we have a little vision on the, on the podcast where we start and um, um, we have tell us your best Spring Walk moment and normally we say bar 1995 with Bat to be Bar Alice Bark and the All Blacks.

[00:03:31] Bruce, what is your favorite Springbok memory?

[00:03:34] Bruce: My favorite Springbok memory is Rasmus in 2019 asked what is pressure, um, and how did you cope with the pressure? And he said, this isn’t pressure. This is rugby. This is a privilege. Um, and he said, pressure is living in South Africa. Privilege, uh, pressure is not having a job in South Africa.

[00:03:55] Um, and, and that moment of clarity and that moment of what. Rugby represents more and more. I was at a party in a place called Seven Oaks, which is a southeast of London. Um, and I heard people talking and I went, that’s weird. Um, I heard a name recognized, I recognized the name and the name of Lincoln Marley was mentioned.

[00:04:17] Uh, Lincoln Marley is the chief executive enlisted company, X standard bank, ex-communist. I knew I, he was the first proper communist I met when I was doing a university project at Rhodes many years ago. And he was my first communist that I interviewed. It was very exciting. He’s no longer a communist just for the record.

[00:04:33] Um, and I bumped into Lincoln on a flight between, uh, between Joe Book and, and London last year. And I said, so why are you here? Where, what you doing? He said, I’m bringing my rugby team over. And he is doing grassroots rugby development. In the Eastern Cape, uh, around Zae. This was a team that he built and he brought them these youngsters to play against seven Oak school, very posh school against Brighton College, the most expensive school in the uk.

[00:05:00] And the people who were talking at this party were talking about Lincoln. They were talking about rugby. They were talking about these kids, most of whom had never been on a plane in their lives. They never let the Eastern Cape in their lives. And they were coming to stay in some very, very nice environments in the United Kingdom.

[00:05:14] And they could not have been more full of praise and more full of admiration of Lincoln and the kids. And I think that’s my favorite thing about rugby is beyond the game is what it represents and what it does. And the empowerment that it brings, the teamwork that it brings, the characters, it helps form and shape into.

[00:05:33] You know, mostly at this stage, very capable and useful young men. And more and more we’ve seen lots of women come through the game, and I’m sure it will develop them in terms of their ability to work as teams, their ability to represent ideas much bigger than themselves. So that’s, again, yeah, it’s a little bit, it’s not off, it’s off the pitch paths.

[00:05:55] Were gonna be much more interesting than mine because he of course, remembers blood and guts and black eyes and stuff.

[00:06:01] Flip: I think Pat mostly avoided all those. But Pat, um, interesting to hear your, your favorite framework memory.

[00:06:06] Bruce: He is, he is super pretty. He, he’s super pretty for pain. So, yeah,

[00:06:10] Pat: that I tried hard to avoid all of the, the gruesome affairs that the rugby court offers.

[00:06:14] Flip, I left that off to you. But my favorite memory is probably Joel Stransky kicking the drop kick at Ellis Park in 1995. That’s my, one of my standout memories in my, in my childhood. Um, obviously only being small and young at the time, but that’s what childhood dreams were made of. To one day be in a position to also kick a winning drop ball against the All Blacks.

[00:06:35] And it sort of ties into a memory I had firsthand, I guess was my first ever test for the spring box was against the All Blacks in Port Elizabeth in 2011 just before the Rugby World Cup and the National Anthem that day was sung extremely loudly. Well, certainly it felt that way, um, to my ears, and I just remember having goosebumps for the entire anthem and, you know, all of the childhood memories of watching the spring box against the All Blacks, including Joel Strand’s drop goal running through my, my memory or through my mind as you sit stood there, sang the.

[00:07:12] The national Anthems who faced All Blacks for the first time. So those are my two standup memories.

[00:07:16] Justinus: Isn’t that my, that’s pressure. Jeez.

[00:07:18] Flip: Yeah. Memory a game we won as well. That Pat.

[00:07:21] Justinus: Yeah. Yeah. That was fantastic.

[00:07:24] Pat: Wow. It’s one of the nice memories. Hey,

[00:07:26] Justinus: but isn’t it amazing, pat? I mean, you were five years old doing Joel STRs kick kicked that drop goal in 95, how that manifested in your life and came full circle and, and became a reality.

[00:07:37] I get goosebumps just thinking about that.

[00:07:40] Pat: Yeah, it certainly hope that my brother and I had the videotape of the whole 95 World Cup and it was basically, it was one of like a handful of videotapes that we had growing up. So it was, uh, top of the pile. Always watched it hundreds of times. But yeah, certainly very special that it manifested in to reality.

[00:08:01] I guess my dreams. My,

[00:08:03] Bruce: my best rugby, my best rugby claim to fame is I slept through the Rugby World Cup in 1995. Wow. I was doing overnight shifts, um, at, at Reuters at the time in London, and I was doing 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM and I’d done a Friday, 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM I went home, fell asleep, woke up, got on the train, and going through Earl’s court, just having mad South Africans running around and suddenly realizing.

[00:08:31] I’ve just missed the biggest event in history since the 1994 elections, of course. But yeah, it was, it was an astonishing moment and how that grabbed the world and how rugby keeps grabbing the world. I mean, it’s that, that, that whole sense of being South Africa, being the only country to won the World Cup four times and to won it in succession in recent years and what rugby brings together and how rugby has transformed in the most beautiful and natural way, and how South Africans own rugby and how it is now.

[00:09:02] You know, the Springbok jersey, um, once, you know, derided by Trevor, uh, Trevor Emanuel famously wearing the, was, was the all black jersey to parliament or some sort of symbol of the Allblacks parliament ’cause they didn’t represent him. And, uh, rugby being so representative and being this most magnificent unifier in a country that needs it.

[00:09:21] So yeah, it’s been bloody fantastic.

[00:09:23] Justinus: Pera, you know what, it’s amazing to me as. Actually after the 23 World Cup, I came, became a little obsessed with trying to figure out what it would take for South Africa to win five of the next 10 World Cups. And in that search and journey, I ended up meeting Lincoln.

[00:09:40] And I don’t know if he’s ever told you the story of how he decided or why he decided to, ’cause he grew up being an all-black supporter. And since the 2023 World Cup, he’s actually decided to become a full-blown springboard supporter. And it’s such a fascinating story when he tells it. And he, and he really starts with like even Nelson Manela trying to convince his peers in nine in the 95 to become Spring Book supporters.

[00:10:08] And he didn’t. And he said the two main reasons he decided to become a Spring Book supporter now is one, he saw his son grow up and be a full blooded spring book supporter with none of the package he carried. And he saw Rasi really transforming rugby to, in a meaningful way in the last six, seven years.

[00:10:27] And now he’s become a, a full-blown springboard supporter. We actually went to the Australia game together last year, is what he’s doing for rugby in the Eastern Cape is just absolutely mind blowing.

[00:10:38] Bruce: And you look at all the talents that South Africa’s missed out on for generations, and you just go, um, and, and by doing it, one, it’s, it’s a wonderful gesture, but also it’s creating pipelines and it’s creating real talent for the future.

[00:10:51] So that is the secret sauce. Keep feeding the machine.

[00:10:54] Flip: Yeah. Speaking of talent, pet Lab. Probably one of the best, um, that grazed the fields of South Africa, um, from a very young age. And, yeah, I can say it out loud, tragically cut short for South Africans. I think, uh, you, you still, and as good enough Nick to still play and, and, um, and should have been part of, of all that.

[00:11:16] Um, 2016, uh, you left the shores for, for Paris, um, step into a racing metro team that won everything and anything. Played alongside my brother, um, back in the day. And then, um, stopped because of concussion. Take us a little bit through that journey and, and you started to go back to South Africa without much hesitation.

[00:11:37] Um, take us a little bit through, through that period of your life.

[00:11:40] Pat: Yeah. 2016, I had my first real heavy concussion and sort of my journey began trying to shake off symptoms for. Well, the rest of my career really, and 2017 I had an opportunity to join wrestling and I thought, you know what? This is gonna be a wonderful opportunity to break the cycle potentially and play in a different jersey for a different club and a completely different competition.

[00:12:06] You know, I, I could, uh, I could, yeah, have a whole new psychology around rugby and hopefully have, basically have a whole second half of my career. So I had a wonderful two seasons at wrestling, but unfortunately I didn’t avoid a few more head injuries. And in the end often, seeing doctors in France, the UK and South Africa.

[00:12:32] Taking on all the advice that I could. The decision was that playing contact sport was not a very good idea, and so I had to retire. At that point in time we, we’d found out that my wife Kate was pregnant with our first child. And so it was quite it was quite easy to make the decision to move back to South Africa.

[00:12:55] It was always our plan. After spending 5, 6, 7 years playing overseas, uh, the plan was always to come back to South Africa and obviously once rugby was taken away, there was nothing else really keeping us away from home and away from family and with a newborn baby. We obviously wanted to be close to, to family and friends.

[00:13:16] And so yeah, I basically came, came home six weeks after my son was born and started a whole new chapter and a whole new life. Are

[00:13:25] Bruce: you allowed to play rugby?

[00:13:29] Pat: Yes. I’ve got three boys now and not have water under the bridge since those days. And they’re all allowed to play whatever sports they would like to play, including rugby.

[00:13:40] So even though I, I didn’t end on my terms, I still had an amazing time as a professional player. I loved the sport. I still love the sport, I love watching it, especially the spring box over the last few years. And so my boys, I would encourage them to play all sports, uh, and rugby.

[00:14:00] Justinus: That’s awesome, man.

[00:14:01] So, Bruce, for you when and how did the decision come to say, okay, I wanna write the next chapter in my life somewhere else?

[00:14:09] Bruce: Yeah, I, it was completely, by accident, I mean, 12 months before we moved to the uk, and goodness knows how long that lasts. But, um, we bought a, a big fat new car. Had just finished renovations on a house and bought a puppy.

[00:14:24] Um, and that’s settling, that’s adult stuff. Um, a year later we decided to not send my son to my old school for various reasons, and he wanted to try a boarding school. And we’d heard of a school in, uh, the south of London that, uh, was looking for swimmers. He’s a national South African swimmer, very talented swimmer.

[00:14:44] And so. Um, he applied for a spot, went for a term, came back drawn and gaunt at the age of 14, went on holiday and we said to him, right, you ready to come back? Your headmaster at your old school has kept your place. And he said, no I, I, I like it. I’m exhausted and I’m broken. But they’re pushing me.

[00:15:00] They’re making me work hard. I’m learning things. And we went, well, if you wanna do that, then we’ll come a bit closer. Um, and it coincided quite nicely ’cause I was ready to finish on the radio. I’d done it for more than 20 years. I’d had a hugely privileged run with it, and I could have kept, kept on doing it for ages, but I was kind of just, I felt myself becoming a little bit complacent and I thought, how do I ramp up, um, what I do and I need to have a little bit of fear, a little bit of the burning platform.

[00:15:29] And so I thought, well, if I don’t do it now. A couple of years time, my, I’ll be more risk averse and I won’t do it. So let’s go and jump into the fire. Within six months, uh, the puppy had been boxed up and sent to my sister who lives in another part of Surrey. The car had been sold at a huge loss. The house, uh, was on the market because, you know, it was too tender to rent out and too many good memories there.

[00:15:51] Um, and the next thing, we arrived in a place, uh, we’d never been to, um, and said, right, let’s find a house. Let’s, you know, let’s, let’s see how this works out. And, um, so I wish I could say that after years of telling people about planning, how important it is to consider things and to carefully way up, uh, these decisions that you take, these life changing decisions.

[00:16:11] It was a moment where it was a case of, if not now, then when, and nothing is undoable. And I’ve, you know, spent 99% of my life in South Africa. It is very much part of my DNA, lots of ancestors buried in weird and wonderful places. Um, all, all over all over the country. And my kids are, you know, their blood is green.

[00:16:35] And, um, when, whenever the spring box come within a a, a a 20 mile radius the hassle starts. And so there is very much a close connection. And I, I worked out the other day. I’ve spent 37% of time in the last two and a half years out of the United Kingdom, most of it in South Africa, sometime in Southeast Asia, in the Middle East, doing various things.

[00:16:56] But, um, yeah the decision to move and a lot of people, and I think 20 years ago moving countries was a, a, a little bit like losing a limb. Uh, I don’t think it’s like that anymore. I think we’re far more flexible. They’re very convenient and easy bus rides, um, that go just this weekend for example, I leave on Saturday night land on Sunday, do a big event on Monday, back on a plane, on, on, on Monday night to be back in London for something on Wednesday.

[00:17:23] Because you can. And so, sorry, planet, I, I know I’m a bad person. I’ll plant some trees. But, um, the convenience of global travel and connectivity is amazing.

[00:17:32] Flip: That is quite incredible, Bruce. And, um, and the greenfields of South of London is, is a far cry from, uh, fi grin. Um, we, we just spoke earlier, we, we grew up with your brown school shoes, you know, to, to identify you.

[00:17:46] Bruce: Exactly.

[00:17:47] Flip: Um, but, but, but surely, you know, and, and it’s, and there’s a, is a big narrative between you know, say with, with bat and with myself and, and just that, that started over in Canada as well. You know, when you have to rebuild. You had a very good identity in South Africa. Everyone knew without saying his name.

[00:18:03] When you, when the Golden Voice came on the radio, we knew it’s Bruce Whitfield. How, how, what is the, what is the process that you go through to, to rebuild that Bruce Whitfield?

[00:18:14] Bruce: Uh, uh, it’s a, it’s an ever ending process, and that complacency was the thing that I was really worried about because, um, I, I morphed in the last decade into yes, doing the radio show and doing some stuff on tv, but more and more doing writing books and then using the lessons out of those books to convert into pro uh, professional speaking opportunities.

[00:18:33] And people would phone up my agent and say, is Bruce available next Wednesday? And she’d say, what would you like him to talk about? Oh, whatever it feels like talking about. And I would turn up and people would, generally, nobody would throw up. Nobody died. It was fine. And, and so it was it was really comfortable.

[00:18:49] It was so easy. And what a privilege, an incredible privilege that was, that platform gave profile that I could never have dreamed of. Um, watching my father as an AI practitioner in the free state in the 1970s, you know, AI was a big thing in the seventies. Artificial insemination. Um, and it’s the reason why I do what I do, because my earliest memory and I, I can smell the dust now.

[00:19:16] I was sitting in my dad’s Hilux watching as he and some very big eyed cows, uh, was sanding underneath these three blue gum trees next to a reservoir on the fluxus. There’s nothing else anywhere in the background. Uh, the klum grain silos in the distance are the nearest landmark, and my old man is.

[00:19:35] Elbow deep inside a cow trying to find the cervix and trying to insert a straw of imported bull semen. You never had this on this, on this podcast before. Imported from the petworth estate in Sussex, um, so that he can get the best cattle he could possibly get. And I looked at that and I listened to a guy called Jeremy do talking on the radio and I went, I’m gonna do that rather than that.

[00:19:57] ’cause I’m not doing to that cow. What my father is doing to that Carl. Um, and yeah, at the age of five or six, I, I made a decision to always go, you know, to, to go into broadcasting. ’cause it sure as hell beat working, that’s for sure. But yeah having that, that presence and that brand was an astonishing thing.

[00:20:13] It was absolutely wonderful. Um, and I continued to serve that market with the News 24 podcast, uh, called Bruce Whitfield’s Business Week. And there’s, uh, we, we cut right to the chase of half an hour of business news. That’s all you need to know. Just if you listen to this, you’ll be fine. Um, sort of thing.

[00:20:29] You don’t need to worry yourself about the noise in the world. And that keeps me very tired to South Africa and the relationships there. The books I’ve written have all had drawn on the brilliance of South Africa, the ingenuity of South Africans, the talent of South Africans, um, and how many of those have exported that talent around the world because they play the away game.

[00:20:54] As well as the spring box, as well as you guys have played the away game. South African business leaders have played the Away Game and the lessons drawn from South Africa, from the 89th hardest place on Earth to do business according to the IMF. Um, it makes you tough, it makes you resilient, it makes you incredibly creative.

[00:21:11] Not everybody succeeds in the away game, but those that do, do incredibly well at it.

[00:21:16] Justinus: Wow. That’s awesome, Bruce. And, and what I really liked about that is also the, the manifestation of going into radio from the age of five, like Pat manifested, kicking a winning score against the All Blacks you manifested, ending up on radio.

[00:21:32] Bruce: If you have no talent, you go onto radio. If you have a talent and you can cultivate it, you go, you play rugby for the spring box. I mean, it’s, it’s two different things. You see,

[00:21:40] Flip: I’m just impressed Jeremy Do, was allowed English radio was allowed for Phil Current again, you know, that’s, um, that’s news for me.

[00:21:46] Bruce: They tried, they, they, they tried to stop it, but there were lots of us, believe it or not. Um, there was always the joke, I think F’S registration played was OMF and was OMB. And OMB was. URA and OMF was our maze farmers, because we’re quite a big community of English speakers. ,

[00:22:06] Flip: Bruce, I spent a lot of my time on a very small town, not far away from, from Groen called, so I, I know the asthmatic, uh, feeling of maze of what do you call it, uh, broken maze in the air.

[00:22:22] Pats, you’re in property now. Um, was that always part of the plan or was that, uh, sort of an emergency stop? How did you, how did you work yourself and, and how did you shape your, competencies towards moving into the property sector? Flip

[00:22:37] Pat: that, my dad has been in the property development and broken game for as long as I can remember, over 30 years now.

[00:22:45] So it’s always been part of the dinner table conversation. He’s run his own business. You know, most of my life. And so, uh, whilst I was playing, I did some studying and some work experience with another property development business. Um, that being with the group that I now work for it just felt like it was the natural progression.

[00:23:05] I I hadn’t really hung my hat on it until I absolutely had to. And yeah when I no longer could play rugby, I jumped straight into, uh, a new career almost as quickly as I could. I wanted to. Yeah, I wanted to grow, I wanted to prove myself. I, I wanted to be successful in something completely different to to professional sport.

[00:23:29] And luckily for me, I had opened the door, made the connection, at least with the Collins Group, whilst I was still playing. And they were the first people I phoned when that day I retired came about and they said, yes, come along. Dunno what you’re gonna do for us, but we’ll try and find something and let’s see how we go.

[00:23:47] And a few months of an internship led to a, a permanent position and we are now sure, we’re now almost seven years down the line. And it’s been a very cool journey and I know speaking to my other e ex-teammates how transitioning from playing sports into the working world is, is really, really hard.

[00:24:10] And it was very hard for me as well. But one thing that I’m so grateful for is that I. I’ve chosen an industry and a career that I can see myself staying in for many more years to come. And I haven’t had to chop and change and bounce around and try and find my feet or find the thing that is gonna keep me motivated or get me out of bed in the morning to go to work.

[00:24:31] Now, I feel like I, I’m very lucky to have found that straight away. In hindsight, I think, if I’m brutally honest, I would have done things a little bit differently. As I mentioned earlier, I was, I was so keen to put rugby behind me and move on to something new and make success of a new career, um, that I, I don’t think I took enough time to process everything and to come to terms with everything and to just give myself and my family, for that matter, a little bit of time to breathe and reflect and mourn and be thankful for, you know, for all the, the happy memories.

[00:25:10] I probably, if I had it all over again, would’ve taken a three to six month sabbatical, a long extended family holiday, done some traveling, or just, kicked my feet up on a beach for a few months. Um, just to let things all, all settle and then, um, and then crack on and dive into a new career.

[00:25:30] But it is what it is and I, and I’m grateful that here we are now.

[00:25:34] Bruce: But it’s when it’s when you leave something and it’s not on your terms. I mean, this wasn’t the yours, that wasn’t the plan for you. And so now you, you cross and worry because suddenly the future is not as you’d mapped it out.

[00:25:46] And so therefore, plan B better come down quickly. ’cause you know, people will forget me. Um, how could they forget you? But it’s that at that fear of being forgotten, um, and losing relevance. And while you’ve still got some cachet grabbing that, um, and doing it. And so I don’t think there’s any right or wrong way, but you know, when you, when you, when it’s not on your terms, you make a plan and make a plan fast.

[00:26:08] And I, I wonder and here I’ve gotta pet theory and you guys can help correct me here. I’ve set somebody on this project ’cause I’m too lazy to do it. Who are the best people to hire in terms of professional sports People? I mean, golfers, you can’t hire them ’cause they’re allowed to play until they’re 90.

[00:26:25] I chatted to Gary Player the other day and he’s still playing. Um, so they’re never available. Tennis players are very individualistic. They might do a bit of doubles rowers. They sit in straight rows and do as they’re told. Um, cricketers. Nice guys are, are, are, are they great hires. My feeling, and it’s a pet project of mine to try and prove that people who make the transition best outta a professional sport into the workplace are rugby players because it’s rough, it’s brutal, it’s confrontational.

[00:27:01] But I, I’ve watched people like John Robbie and Nick Mallet interacting and they had a big argument at the age of 17 between Oxford and Cambridge, and they still argue about it today. And both of them believes the other one is wrong, but they’re the best of mates and they get over stuff really quickly.

[00:27:17] They can disagree really vociferously. And I wonder if what’s learned on the rugby field? Pat translates into the workplace, and you’re gonna be biased on this, so it’s fine. But I think rugby translates to work better than most other sports idea theory. Is it, does it hold

[00:27:34] Flip: do agree. It’s a life subject of mine as well, to, to show the importance or show the, the value that rugby players can add to the society , after rugby. It’s a sport that we love and, , not everyone has the, ability or the need to go and, and do coaching or commentary afterwards.

[00:27:50] You know, some of us do want to set new objectives and, and a new purpose and, and, and try and try and accomplish new tasks. Um, and we recently spoke, uh, spoke to, to, uh, SK as well, and he said, you know, the first time you, you, you get to do a discounted cash flow, uh, you know, you want to be the best because that’s what, that’s who we are as, as rap players.

[00:28:11] You go out and you want to be the best number 10 that there is on the day, and you want to win no matter your size or, or shape. You want to be the best, but you just, you’re 15 years behind the guy that’s been doing it all the time. So you, you’re catching up again. So it’s a. You know, it is unlike military where you have these programs where they, you know, they, they put cotton wool all around you and, and, you know, streamline you up onto the top.

[00:28:35] And you know, then yes, general, you’re the best, and then direct the sport players and we just have to prove ourselves again. But luckily we tough, you know, and Pat, I wanna, I want to, I wanna get back to yourself. You, you said a very interesting thing there. You know, in retro, in retrospect, you, you wanted to take some, some time off.

[00:28:55] What was the toughest thing for you to, to reshape that purpose? You know, so, you know, as record players, we admit that we get spoonfed. You, you wake up on a Sunday, you get your program, uh, you know, from eight o’clock on a Monday to, the game on a Saturday. You know, exactly hour by hour, what you’re gonna do.

[00:29:12] How did you go? What was your, what was your, your key measures or what are you still working on to regain that purpose?

[00:29:19] Pat: That’s so true. And, and Bruce, maybe to acknowledge what you’ve just said, thank you that you think so highly of us rugby players, but um, we do have our downfalls, like

[00:29:28] Bruce: evidence suggests it’s

[00:29:29] Pat: true.

[00:29:29] Yeah,

[00:29:30] Bruce: yeah, sure.

[00:29:30] Pat: Look, I think we, you know, we understand how we’ve had to be involved in the team environments and close confines. We’ve had to travel and share rooms with players or other people. We’ve had to work as a team, understand individual strengths and weaknesses. We all have our role to play on the field and that can certainly in the business world and certainly in the properties development world, we’ve gotta interact with architects and qss and engineers and time planners and environmental consultants and project managers.

[00:29:57] And you’ve gotta be able to pull the whole team together, all leading or going in one direction so that you can move a project forward and and deliver on it. But to flip’s point, we do get spoon fed and expect everything to be laid out on a plate in front of us, um, which can be a downfall, but. And flip.

[00:30:14] I think that’s also something that players struggle with in the transition from the sporting world or the rugby world into normal world, is that now you’ve gotta manage your own time. You’ve gotta decide when you’re gonna wake up, when you’re gonna exercise, when you’re gonna go to work, how you’re gonna fit family life into that.

[00:30:31] Obviously it’s a little bit harder if the company you work for dictates you must be there from eight to five or from nine to four, whatever it is. Um, but for me it’s never been a corporate role. It’s always been rather flexible in the office some days onsite, other days, uh, working from wherever. A few times a week.

[00:30:51] But what was very easy for me to be motivated by, and I think it was such a big blessing, was that my rugby career ended and my family life started almost I needed to be thereafter. And now the purpose of being a father has far outweighed any other purpose I’ve ever had in my life. And the motivation to provide for my family and be the best father that I possibly can be, and obviously give everything that my family wants and needs to them has been a big motivating factor to have a successful career outside of rugby and to be able to make ends meet with a new job and in a new career outside of rugby.

[00:31:32] So that’s where I am, and I, I still am motivated by that. I still am driven to, to go deep and long and far into this property deve property development world. And, um, and yeah. Uh, at the moment all is is going well.

[00:31:50] Flip: I, I imagine, um, having three boys, that’s also why you need a bit

[00:31:53] Justinus: of holiday. Yeah.

[00:31:57] What was fascinating for me? I mean, I was a dire Blue Bull supporter. So 1990 when you were born, probably around the same time was the first time the Sharks won the Curry Cup. And unfortunately I was there that day and loved this. But as a young player,

[00:32:13] Bruce: I was, I was, well, probably a year or two later at Ellis Park to see, uh, natal beat the beat Val in, in the career cup.

[00:32:22] That’s also good. Yeah. So

[00:32:24] Pat: Justine, as my parents e called me Val. Paul was the Shark’s captain at the time. From the nurses suggested they called me Val.

[00:32:33] Justinus: Oh no Valman. No way,

[00:32:35] Flip: Johnson. That’s called the tries again, the bulls. Yeah.

[00:32:38] Justinus: Yeah, yeah. And Berg must tried to tackle him eye and missed it, and then y on his back and got a penalty and Charles Stransky kicked it over.

[00:32:48] But in any case, that was a very sad day in South African rugby history for me, obviously. 2007 was definitely the, the chance to get it back. But you as a player, what was my amazing about you is you always just looked so confident. I mean, you were super young, you weren’t that big, but it never looked like any of those things intimidated you.

[00:33:10] How did, did you feel like you were able to transfer that confidence from Raki into your new career and from Raki into fatherhood? Or was there points in that transition where you felt like, oh, sharks, I dunno what I’m doing, or, or was the confidence came naturally in, in these new, two new contexts as well?

[00:33:30] Pat: That’s a good question. I certainly wasn’t confident all the time. There were obviously, uh, dips in my career where I was lacking some confidence. But I think I, I’ve always been lucky to have fairly calm demeanor, I guess. And I don’t easily get too flustered or too flattered for that matter.

[00:33:48] So, you know, try not to have these big, these big spikes of emotions and feelings, especially when you’re out on the field, um, and having to make decisions. The drop of a hat, I think the pressure of the rugby environments, particularly the 80 minutes that you’re on the field. You know, the decision making process then is a lot more intense than it is in the business world.

[00:34:12] I think in the business world, you, you have more time to think things over and plan and strategize and, get information that you need in order to make a decision. But the pressure in the business world is obviously a lot more on the financial side of things. So. The decisions that you make can have huge financial implications, and that pressure, I’ve felt, is different to the pressure of being a player.

[00:34:38] Obviously, indirectly as a player, if you keep making rubbish decisions and performing poorly, then financially that’s gonna have a negative outcome on you because you’re gonna get dropped and you are gonna get left out of squads and you are not gonna get resigned and no contract and blah, blah, blah. Um, but as a player, you’re just trying to be the best version of yourself and it’s a passion and it’s a love and it’s not as much of a, a job as it is a, a career in sport.

[00:35:06] I’m not really sure if I’ve answered your question. I just think, I think one of, one of the great things that sport has taught me is how to. Uh, handle pressure and decision making and how to deal with various opinions and various egos and and to make yeah, to make an informed decision and to not be too erratic with things.

[00:35:32] Flip: That’s a, that’s, that’s a very good point. And, um, um, especially around the egos. Bruce, you’ve interviewed some, well,

[00:35:42] Bruce: how did the egos Bruce, some, sorry, hurts my feelings.

[00:35:46] Flip: Geez. It was a comma. There was a comma. You, you’ve interviewed some of the, some of the biggest personalities and, and therefore the biggest.

[00:35:54] Egos who we’ve known. How, how do you manage to, in, in, in those heed discussions to remain completely Switzerland, completely neutral, and not that your own, that, not that your own opinion. That’s, that’s always me for any radio personality or, or TV or podcast personality. That’s the, that’s the biggest strength is to, to remain completely neutral.

[00:36:15] Bruce: Well, no, you don’t, you can’t be neutral. We all are triggered, um, by different things. I, again, growing up in Fon, screwin. There’s a, a value set that comes from growing up. I think in a more traditional environment, um, you get a very clear sense of what is right and what is wrong, a very clear sense of justice, um, in the world.

[00:36:37] And if you have a strong sense of personal values and you understand how you see the world, and you believe very firmly that the world is better today than it was 20 years ago and is better than it was a hundred years ago and 500 years ago, and your role is to make it better 20 years from now you have a clear understanding of the sorts of behaviors and the sorts of actions that people with a huge amount of power and authority, how they need to behave.

[00:37:01] And it’s okay to be angry when they’re behaving badly. So I went through a very angry 10 years between about 2008 and 2018, um, during the zumi years, for example, the rage I felt, and I was reminded the other day. Of the night in Santana was fired as finance minister and au train was fairly new. And I just got onto the HA train and there’d been lots of rumors during the week that he was going to be fired.

[00:37:30] And the, as I got onto the K train and as a, as on ation, in those days you could get an SMS, but then you went into the tunnel and you couldn’t get one until you got to Marlborough once your phone had decided to talk to the network again. I think it’s changed now, but my producer sent me a message just after eight o’clock I’d just got off the radio.

[00:37:51] I was flying back down to Cape Town, um, and he went, he’s done it. He’s fired Nana. And I had to spend the next three minutes looking at this, going and I the rage. And that night I wrote the strongest opinion piece on my phone sitting in economy on SA 3, 7 5 or 2 1 9 or whatever it was. And just the fury I felt.

[00:38:13] And I woke up the news editor at 7 0 2 and said, look, I dunno if you wanna publish this thing, but I’ve, I’ve written it. Please do publish it. And it went absolutely stratospheric the next day. ’cause it was the voice of absolute rage. And how dare this economically illiterate, incompetent thieving. Person do this to an economy that’s already on its knees.

[00:38:38] Um, and at that point, I felt completely justified in taking a fairly strong view, um, uh, without using those expletives. And I, I think part of being a journalist is having a very clear sense of social justice and what is right and wrong and batting for it. Um, and I think we, that becomes dangerous when it’s weaponized either from the left or from the right.

[00:38:59] Um, and so yeah, objectivity is a myth that was, uh, journalism on day one in 1989 at Rhodes University. Jo, uh, objectivity is a myth, so hold your values dear. Be true to those values, represent those values, and, try not to get personally involved of course. But there’ve been times where I have had really intimate conversations with CEOs who are not my friends.

[00:39:25] Um, I like them very much. I respect most of them very much, but we don’t have a, you know, I, I don’t know what, what upsets their wives about them, I can guess in many cases. But, but it’s not that, that, that kind of relationship, but it is a relationship with mutual respect where they’ve risen to a level of extraordinary capability.

[00:39:47] Um, but often they’re people who work in very narrow silos, so got chartered accountants and they sort of go out of the silos. And so they appreciate it as a bit of honest feedback. Um, and a little bit of, conversations based integrity. Um, yeah, and there are some enormously big egos. Some of them are completely justified.

[00:40:06] There was, uh, some of them are misplaced, but my favorite story on ego in business, and then I’ll stop for a second. Um, he died recently, but Brian Gilbertson big mining, CEO, instrumental in in, in global mining for many years, and I think he lived on the ridge in Westcliffe, which is 10 minutes to downtown Joburg.

[00:40:25] Maybe 15 if there was a bit of traffic. But he used to go by helicopter. Um, and the helicopter would come and pick him up in his garden. He would then land on the roof. It probably took him longer, um, to get into the helicopter to take off, to go over downtown Joburg land on the roof to get in the lift and down to his office and if he’d driven.

[00:40:45] But the, the line always was whenever he landed on the building, the ego has landed. Um, and um, so yes, there are people who are big personalities of course, and, uh, sometimes destructive egos. But generally I find many business leaders are simply people, really clever, really good at what they do, able to get teams of people to do what they need to do to achieve goals.

[00:41:08] Uh, in the same way as when you’ve got great leadership in sport, there are better leaders in some respects than others. Um, and those who have got great values and a, and a bigger sense of purpose, which is a word that’s overused nowadays, will ultimately be on the sports field, in the boardroom, will be the ones who are going to be most successful over time.

[00:41:27] Justinus: That’s a great story. Thanks for sharing, Bruce. Bruce, you mentioned a bit earlier that one of the latest books you, uh, wrote, written is, um,

[00:41:36] Bruce: I mean this one,

[00:41:37] Justinus: that one about time. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about it. That’s such a great, so I have this insane Affinity Fernandos, and I think part of the reason I have is when I left South Africa and I landed in Canada, one of the first things we did from the Calgary Airport.

[00:41:52] Is go to Nando. So I’ve always liked the food, but at that point, Nandos became this connection to South Africa and this example of a South African business who’s done almost better outside of South Africa than in South Africa. So tell us a little bit about that and what for you is, is winning the away game?

[00:42:09] And, and with that as a, obviously a great example.

[00:42:12] Bruce: Can Nandos and then not get a Robbie Bron story? I have to go tell you one quickly. Um, during the first Trump administration I was, and it was toward the end of Zuma and as Trump was coming in and I was walking through domestic departures at, uh, or Tambo.

[00:42:29] And the next thing, Robbie Bron, and if you don’t know Robbie personally, but you do know the story of Winnie the Pooh, most South Africans are eo, uh, Robbie Bron is Tigger and he is permanently, like he’s on, uh, on Red Bull and extra sugar and stuff. And he’s always optimistic and enthusiastic and he comes running up to, are we allowed to swear on this podcast?

[00:42:48] Is that I’m quoting Robbie, so it’s not me swearing. And he came bounding over to me and he went, the world’s fucked.

[00:42:55] Hey, uh, big smile on his face. And it was just like, you know, now South Africa doesn’t look so cuck with that oak. Oh, it’s great. And South Africa was going through this transition. It’s, and, and it, it failed to grasp the opportunity that the end consumer brought, but, uh, to the extent that it should have.

[00:43:12] But that sense of Robbie and that enthusiasm and the fact that Nandos has got, what, 1500 outlets now, it’s gradually spreading through the United States. Don’t tell Donald Trump. Um, and it’s not Mexican, so it’ll be fine. But, and he doesn’t know where Mozambique is, so that’s okay. So the chilies will still be allowed to go in.

[00:43:28] Um, but the, so yeah, so, so Robbie is an exceptional South African, and I mean, they got to 800 stores uh, worldwide. And he, it was about 2008. And Robbie I think could just be pushing himself too hard and he just went, it was time for adult supervision. And the rate of growth has slowed dramatically since then, but I think they’re up to about 1500 stores.

[00:43:48] They’re 500 in the u yeah, 500 in the uk, 380 or something in South Africa. It’s in a magnificent story. But anyway, onto this one. Um, which is the story of time, which has got its origins in an MBA classroom at Gibbs in the year 2000. And a guy called Rad Yoker, uh, who had graduated Lauder from the University of the free set in law was CEO of what was then Edward.

[00:44:13] Nathan Friedland is now ENS, uh, big corporate law firm, biggest in Africa. And at age 35 is running this law firm. All these partners, they’re all hungry deal makers. Um, at the time, Edward Nathan is owned by Nedbank. They sold it to Nedbank, and Kun was bought it back from Nedbank for less than Nedbank had paid for it five years before.

[00:44:35] Uh, and Kun started doing his MBA and started thinking very heavily about financial inclusion, about the base of the pyramid, about people who are ignored by banks. And some 24% of people in the world can’t get a bank account because they’re seen as unbankable. Commercial banks have got very high cost base, they’ve got big pillars to pay for.

[00:44:53] Um, they’ve got big, uh, data sets to pay for. They, it’s very expensive to run big banks and sort of thinking about this. Uh, retired from law, uh, resigned from his law job and went and joined Standard Bank and ran a business for them inside Standard Bank, which al the CEO of Standard Bank says. So now, says it was impossible.

[00:45:13] We couldn’t have a cult inside a bank because these guys were absolute rebels. They were completely renegades. They broke all of the rules. They had like a skunk works inside a standard bank that nobody really knew about, and they were going to esper shops and using blackberries to sign up customers and breaking rules.

[00:45:29] Oh, it was chaos. But they signed up a million customers and suddenly somebody in Standard Bank woke up and went, this is getting a bit big, actually. We need to put costs to it because it’s not fair to corporate banking that these guys don’t have the same level of costs. And basically undermined the business model and it became a product rather than a set.

[00:45:47] So he left there, joined Deloitte, they signed up 5 million customers for MTN and created a banking business for M-T-N-M-T-N went well, doesn’t sell airtime, so we don’t want this. So they were bought by Commonwealth Bank of Australia and that’s where. Commonwealth Bank of Australia had this big Southeast Asia business and they loved the tech the time had created and wanted to use that tech to expand their Southeast Asia business.

[00:46:10] But they got into trouble in Australia and basically said to Kun Yoka, who was then a senior executive at Commonwealth Bank of Australia, said to him, you can have a cushy job for as long as you want in Sydney. He has a big contract, he has a pay packet, you’ll be fine. And the next 28 generations of Yonkers will be fine.

[00:46:27] You can have that, um, but you have to get rid of this little thing called time. And Kun went to his old executive team and said, why don’t we buy pack, and got the backing of Patrice Moser per African rainbow capital, and so giving up cozy light in Sydney and went on the road to try and build a bank from scratch.

[00:46:47] But in the cloud only getting a banking license, which had been done by Commonwealth Bank of Australia. They were absolutely pivotal in their part, but convincing regulators that they should be allowed to continue. Um, and, uh, yeah, getting the backing of Patrice Ope and building the business in South Africa.

[00:47:05] And if you want to know about winning the away game, I think the story of time is the quintessential winning the away game story. Because you hone your skills, you hone your systems, you hone your processes, you hone your value system in South Africa, you then transpose that. In a country six time zones away in a culture that is so remote, so remote from yours, but you do it using the same techniques and strategies that you used in South Africa.

[00:47:30] So they teamed up with a GoCon Way family, which is one of the 10 wealthiest families in the Philippines, and they’ve got big supermarket groups. So they’re tied up like they do with pick and pay and with FINI group stores in South Africa with Robinson Supermarkets in the Philippines, where they’ve got 8 million customers now on top of the 12 million in South Africa.

[00:47:49] They’re lending money in Indonesia. Their tech sacks are being built by a guy I was at university with at Rhodes many years ago, X standard bank as well, called Dieter, who lives in Sydney but runs a team in Vietnam of 800 techies. And these, this is a law graduate from the University of the Free state and the guy who.

[00:48:07] The proper ai, not like my father’s AI in the nineties called Chart Fund Evolve. Um, he’s got a PhD in AI from those days, but these two Afrikaans guys who have seen a market that is ignored, that is un not respected, that is unloved, and they said, how can we serve them with dignity and purpose and clarity and profitably, and how do we raise the money in order to do that?

[00:48:32] They went through all kinds of hell in COVID. We go through the details in the book. They come very close to death, at least five or six times, yet they are the, the core team of people are united in a sense of purpose that I’ve not seen in any other business I’ve ever studied, and I’ve studied hundreds and hundreds of entrepreneurs over 25 years, and they’ve got a business which is now headquartered in Singapore with operations in the Philippines, growing in Indonesia, new markets in site.

[00:49:00] And of course the core sitting in South Africa, which is teamed up now with Lum ’cause Patrice from many years ago, they’re the first big be deal with Lum that still holds and is probably the most successful be deal in South African history. And so you’re gonna have time and lum working together. Old Mutuals just launched a bank you discovery with the bank.

[00:49:18] ShopRite wants a bank. Everybody wants a bank. Um, and you’ve still got the mainstream banks, which are enormously powerful and influential and profitable. And yeah, so what South Africa does really well is banking. And this has taken banking to a new level in terms of time and take your time. Comes from, uh, take your money everywhere.

[00:49:37] But these, this is a South African creation. They, their value proposition was slightly different in the Philippines, marketed a slightly higher demographic. They get a rebrand. Very soon in South Africa become far more visible, far more aspirational because nobody wants to bank with a per person’s bank.

[00:49:52] And they first made it the poor person’s bank and they’ve gone that, that’s actually not very good. Banking’s always aspirational. Um, and yeah, so that these guys are winning the away game in the same way as Nando’s wins the Away Game. And the same way as Discovery with 2 million vitality customers, insurance customers in the uk, um, the same way as so many South African businesses in 91, the domestic asset management invested itself.

[00:50:17] Phenomenal. South African businesses, um, are doing so well largely in the uk, but increasingly in other parts of the world too, where you take. Real hunger, real business cases, and you transpose those into new markets. I mean, the Rolex guys, for example, were on the bones of their backside in South Africa, and uh, uh, I hope they’re still doing well in the us but they found a good market for superlative lawnmowers in, in, in the US for example.

[00:50:43] There’s, there’s so many great stories about it, um, about South Africans winning it away games on, in sports fields, and of course in the corporate sector too.

[00:50:53] Flip: That is a incredible story. And, and, and on the time, you know, I’m, I’m a big fan of Linn Jacobs, a new, the new CEO, uh, for the very fact that he posted a photo and he was wearing a Casio watch.

[00:51:04] Just to show you, you can be in big, big banking and just be normal.

[00:51:08] Bruce: So my, my favorite zen story, sorry. And he’s a cocky little bugger. He, he’s not that little, but he’s cocky as hell. Um, so he joined when they were all part of Santa Bank and who’s been part of the core team that left Santa Bank and went by Deloitte and Commonwealth Bank of Australia and all over the place.

[00:51:23] And one of the first things they did when they launched in 2019, they put a billboard in Rosebank directly across within eye line of SIM’s office. The CEO at and sim is unflappable. Sim doesn’t get agitated about anything, but apparently he admits to being quite cross about that because the billboard went banking shouldn’t be standard.

[00:51:45] Uh, get a time bank account. And, and the only time Kun Yoker has worn a tie in the last 10 years was having to go and apologize to his old boss. It’s a standard bank and they’ve, they, they’ve remained very good friends. But, uh, yeah, the, this, the story of time is one of cheek, it’s one of opportunism and it’s one of serving a market that is largely ignored.

[00:52:05] Flip: Just, uh, as we move towards the end and, and Pat before you have to go jump off and, and, um, yeah. And, and market those lovely properties and the Al Midlands. Um, why do you, pat, why do you reckon South Africa’s all are so successful at winning the away game? You know, and, and as you go into that, you know, what is, what is the next 10 years?

[00:52:26] What is, what does winning for bat look like?

[00:52:28] Pat: Flip. I think as South Africans, we are extremely resilient. We are a tough nation. We are so diverse with many different skillsets, but we are all. It’s extremely resilient, and I think we’ve got loads of opportunity within South Africa, and we grow up and develop skills to take advantage of those opportunities.

[00:52:49] And we can, as Bruce has mentioned, I’ll then translate the skills that we’ve learned here anywhere in the world. And so it really is wonderful that there are so many happy, wonderful stories of, of South African businessmen and businesses that are winning their away game, uh, all around the globe. And then the second part of your question, what does it look like for me over the next little while?

[00:53:10] Look, I’m, I’m extremely optimistic about where South Africa is going. I’m extremely optimistic, in particular about the case in North Coast and the development that is happening here and the. The areas that are being transformed into real pockets of excellence and bubbles that people from all over the country and from outside of South Africa are wanting to come and live in.

[00:53:35] And so, you know, I see 10, 15, maybe even 20 year pipeline of development work out here on this north coast of the KN province. And we are gonna attract foreign investment and we are gonna create something that is quite unique and special that offers wonderful climate all year round, warm sea great services and infrastructure and everything that you need within a five or 10 minute neighborhood schools, healthcare, shopping, entertainment, business opportunities and within arrival, other first world countries and, and other pockets of South Africa.

[00:54:13] Um. You know, at, at the moment post a, a first world experience

[00:54:18] Bruce: only place you can swim in the sea in July. Absolutely.

[00:54:22] Flip: Yeah. Why not? I’ve got two boys. So, you know, apparently there’s quite a few schools over there, you know, uh, maybe keep a spot for me.

[00:54:29] Pat: Correct? We’ll do that for you, Flo

[00:54:30] Flip: Ruth, for you. What, what does the next 10

[00:54:32] Justinus: year look like?

[00:54:33] And, and what do you wanna do? And, and how do you wanna win their way game in the next few years?

[00:54:38] Bruce: You know what I mean? And, and we haven’t really gone there, but I think a really important part, you said you wanted vulnerability. I’ll give you vulnerability. Justina. There’s nothing, like if you’re a rugby star and people like rugby, um, you can be anybody playing anywhere and you, you will be known.

[00:54:52] And when you play, people will come to watch you. I, I remember giving Jti Rhodes a lift back. I know he is not a rugby player, um, from Sun City to Joburg, and he broke my bathroom door handle. But that’s okay. Forgive you jaunt. Um. I got a hell of a grip, that guy. But, but Jte was just talking about India and how he, you know, he is more anonymous in South Africa than he was in India at the time.

[00:55:15] Um, and the obsession with, you know, sports with stars. And I think the wonderful thing about sport is the brand recognition, the personal recognition it has, and, um, the tragedy for so many sports people who don’t leverage those, that wonderful brand, uh, value that they have. Um, you know, people like Val Barman have done rather well.

[00:55:35] Val, I think has bought uh, uh, has bought the he’s bought another security company, but enlisted, yeah, they, they’ve just bought, and again, to list on the JSE. So he’s done rather well out of, uh, you know, leveraging his brand. And Bobby, of course, is doing very well with Alexia in the UK and the value of him as a former springboard captain.

[00:55:54] Still strong kudos here. When you’ve been in media in one market, as I have for so long. Yes, it’s all very comfortable and very easy, and that was that complacency that I was afraid of, uh, back then. There is nothing like a shock to the system. It’s a little bit like going to swim at Clifton in in July, unlike in case it n where it’s nice and warm.

[00:56:15] If you really want your heart rate to get going, go jump in the ocean at Clifton in July, which I’ve done. Don’t recommend it

[00:56:20] Flip: even in middle of December, Bruce. It’s very cold. Exactly.

[00:56:25] Bruce: But move, but, but, but, but, but, but relocating because great opportunity for kids and, you know, you see the opportunity and they could have gone to lovely schools in South Africa, but this was just, it was the thing, it was an opportunity.

[00:56:37] And the exposure that they get and the exposure that they’re getting. There are lots of Asian kids in, in their school and the, the, you know, 10% of the school of of kids who come from mainland China and Hong Kong. And it is just this most astonishing networking opportunity for a future that we don’t know.

[00:56:52] But you come into a market and you go, hi, I’m Bruce. And they go, yeah, that’s nice. So what. And you go and then they lose interest before you even finish your first sentence. It takes a huge amount of time, a huge amount of work, and a huge amount of focused ability, uh, when you are in the soft arts, if you like, of delivering a message, which is absolutely pertinent to the world right now, which is how do you thrive at the edge of chaos?

[00:57:19] How do you seize the chaos advantage? Um, and the chaos advantage is what I talk about at the moment, which is everything I’ve learned out of one of the toughest markets on earth, one of the most hostile business environments on Earth is highly relevant in this market today. How do you maintain confidence?

[00:57:35] How do you read the signals as to what has changed permanently? What is an anomaly? What is an aberration? Um, the world right now is absolutely convinced that the old world order is dead and it’s all gonna fall apart. And we don’t know what the future’s going to look like. Well, I’ll tell you what the future looks like.

[00:57:50] It’s more diversified, it’s not broken, it’s just. Different and you were just too different in the same way as you know. Who’s the scariest elk you’ve ever had run at you pat on the rugby field?

[00:58:02] Pat: Probably nu I thought it would be me.

[00:58:08] Bruce: He knows you’re a teddy bear at heart flip really.

[00:58:11] Justinus: It’s a perfect way to end that. Thank you guys for showing up today and and participating. That was a fantastic conversation. Thank you very much, gentlemen.

[00:58:19] Pat: Thanks for having me.

[00:58:21] Bruce: . Thank you, clip. Thank you, Justina’s. Thank you.

[00:58:23] Flip: Awesome. Thank you very much.

[00:58:25]