Episode 12: Proving Yourself Where You Weren’t Expected

[00:00:00] Noms: A Springbok women’s rugby team, no one was ready for that.

[00:00:03] Francisca: You have to do the work if you don’t get the recognition.

[00:00:05] Noms: No supporters in the stadium. It was just your team against that team, and then that’s it.

[00:00:10] Francisca: I’ve been told to my face, even though I’m doing the engineering management, I can’t officially get that title.

[00:00:15] Noms: I said to myself, someone needs to start somewhere.

[00:00:17] Francisca: I built an Agentic AI system. It is already global. IT services the entire mining industry, and it’s only gonna grow bigger.

[00:00:24] Noms: I had to do it and I have no regret.

[00:00:38] Justinus: Welcome to Winning The Away Game, the podcast that’s all about what happens when you have to prove yourself in a system that wasn’t built with you in mind. Today we have two exceptional guests that can help us explore that topic. The first one is Francisco Lombard, a metallurgical engineer and founder of mine, GPT, AI powered.

[00:01:01] Decision making, intelligent platform for the global mining industry. She started a career at the lowest ranks of the coal mines in the FEL around wit bank, working her way through operations, commissioning and engineering before moving to Canada on her own at the age of 29, and had to rebuild the credibility from zero.

[00:01:26] Under a completely new regulatory system today, she helps mining professionals and investors make better decision faster using structured technical reasoning at scale. With her, we have Norm Tobe. Who made history in 2004 as the first captain of the Springbok Women team leading South African Women’s Rugby through its formative years, while working full-time.

[00:01:57] After retiring, she reinvented herself as team manager of the springboks, and later as a rugby analyst and voice of women’s rugby on SuperSport claiming space as an expert in the media in a room. Very rarely made for the women’s perspective. This episode is about building authority in systems that was not designed to recognize them.

[00:02:21] If you are going through a career change moving country, or just looking to poke your nose somewhere where people say you don’t belong, we can’t wait to explore this with you. Flip. Are you ready? And how are you doing today?

[00:02:35] Flip: Justine is, I’m great. I’m so looking forward to today’s episode from the coal mines to the coal face.

[00:02:41] we are making habits of getting springboard captains on here, and it’s very exciting to hear from them. Ladies, welcome very much, FCA and Noms. Great to, to have you here. Moms, where are you joining us from?

[00:02:52] Noms: Guys, I’m taking you wherever you are to Port Elizabeth. We call it now, I don’t know if you can do the clicking sound, but it’s the Reala woman in front of your face.

[00:03:05] So I’m here. Yes, I’m here in Born and Bred here. Worked here, did everything here. So yeah, that’s me.

[00:03:14] Flip: Yeah. From Francisco, where are you joining us? Hi,

[00:03:17] Francisca: I am joining you from cold Canada. A town called Hamilton, and this morning when I dropped off my kid, it was minus 17. So yeah,

[00:03:28] Justinus: so probably only a 40 degree difference between where you are and norms are in pe.

[00:03:37] Flip: That is what we are bringing you on, winning the Away Game. It’s all about the differences in culture and places where we live. We have a little habit here on the podcast when we start us, where we share our favorite Springbok memory. Moms, I’ll give you the honor to start.

[00:03:51] Noms: It was 2004. I always say this because, it was the only first time that we actually worn the Green and Gold Blazers. 2000, 2001, 2002. We were only allowed to wear the Navy and white. I’m not sure if we were not, accepted as yet, or we were called Elite, team. But 2004, when we welcomed the Wales team in South Africa, and particularly, we played in, that was the first game.

[00:04:24] And, I was the captain of that team. I could say it was my first cap. But what was the significant for that for me was the fact that as much as my father passed on, I felt like I was too close. Representing anything but making him proud. The Port Elizabeth people were there to witness that.

[00:04:48] My primary school were, they did the, what you call,

[00:04:53] Justinus: yeah, like a god of honor.

[00:04:55] Noms: God of honor. They did that for the Springbok team. It was the first ever. That was 2004 on the 29th of May. I dunno the feeling of singing Africa. That for me, you can take, money away.

[00:05:14] You can take my car, my house can be liquidated all of that. But that excitement that. Experience that moment. It’s something that I always wake up and tell that story to say, leading the team import, Elizabeth, your primary teacher is there. your family is proud of you and you are the number one in your lineup, and there’s your actual number one being a prop.

[00:05:40] I appreciate each and every moment of it. That was my memory.

[00:05:45] Flip: Oh, that’s incredible.

[00:05:47] Francisca: Insanely.

[00:05:52] Justinus: Norms. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to sporting things in America, but one of the things I find very strange here is they always have somebody sing the national anthem, but nobody else sings with them. They basically stand there and listen to the national anthem. So for me, every test I go to, my favorite part is actually singing the national anthem.

[00:06:15] And getting the whole crowd singing along. It just, I get emotional to thinking about it. The flip is laughing as you young, but I’m laughing. I’m,

[00:06:23] Flip: I’m enjoying it with you.

[00:06:26] Justinus: The key is, I never feel so connected to 80,000 strangers as when we sing in ksi before rugby test. Do you really feel like you’re connected to people in a deep way, even though you obviously don’t know 99.9% of them,

[00:06:42] Francisca: And we have such a lovely, anthem also. People, you don’t know what you have until you don’t anymore. next time when there’s a match and you hear that song playing, people need to just actually appreciate just how beautiful it is and how it also just has the power to just connect everyone really.

[00:06:58] Justinus: Yeah, That’s very true. So what’s your favorite spring book Memory Francisco

[00:07:03] Francisca: hundred Bullard, 2023 semifinals. The kick from basically the halfway line that whole match through. I did not have a voice by the end of it because I was, I felt like the riff was completely against us and there’s just nothing as sweet as, you know, just the, that feeling of.

[00:07:24] when, when something like that happens. I’m a sucker in general for kicks though. Like all those long kicks or any drop kick, I’m just like always. Oh, amazing.

[00:07:35] Noms: And he still do. It does good though, with those kicks. We went pitching this for now on, when we do the show, the Parker Show because we analyze the games, you know, the URC and all of that.

[00:07:46] So we were saying what positions, are we looking at now for the Springbok team? What positions do we think that, we’re still short, in the team. And I say to myself, I know there are new young players and they’re very good, the Sasha Zu and all of that, but I don’t know who’s gonna replace Pollard.

[00:08:05] The guy is just cool, calm and collected. it’s gonna be a tough one. It’s gonna be a tough one.

[00:08:11] Flip: Yeah. it’s gonna be very interesting to see how these teams build. So, Francisco, you started at the lowest rank. You can possibly start as a plant operator in a coal mine and in wood bank.

[00:08:22] The all male crew had to fight your way up, and then actually left South Africa quite early. what infused that decision? what went through your mind then?

[00:08:29] Francisca: I didn’t have a particular, massive big reason except for I got the opportunity. I applied for permanent residency.

[00:08:37] I had married young, I divorced young. And, my brother, he got cancer and then passed away. And that also just gave me a new sense of clarity in terms of you only get one life. Why not? If you have an opportunity, just do it. You can always come back. Nobody wants to hire you if you’re sitting in South Africa.

[00:08:56] So I had to really make a big choice because I had to quit my job and luckily two weeks later I started with the same company again on this side. but that is only sheer luck. but yeah, I don’t regret it because since then I’ve met my now husband. We have a beautiful family and yeah, sometimes life just takes you on a wild journey.

[00:09:16] Justinus: Thanks for sharing. it could not have been easy with your brothers, but it sounds like that really shifted your perspective on what is next for you? Why do you think that was?

[00:09:29] Francisca: My brother passed away at the age of 36. He had just gotten married. from his diagnosis until when he passed was only one year that passed.

[00:09:42] He never had the opportunity to have kids. So pretty big. And I think that the one thing that I have learned from that, which I keep saying to people, especially when people complain a lot, is I just say to people, look, old age isn’t guaranteed. Genuinely, you are complaining about, these small things.

[00:10:01] When, at the end of the day you know, most people are able bodied, they have all of their limbs working. They actually have, a job. they’re just doing well. There’s so much to be thankful for. and yeah, the fact that he just never had that opportunity to live and to do everything that the rest of us are getting to experience, really, it’s, it’s,

[00:10:19] It, it really, really changes you. And I guess that, that’s also, one of the reasons why I also started my GBT because when I was pregnant with my daughter, I actually also had three cancer diagnoses. And it was the same cancer that my brother had, and I was 36 at that age, the same age that he died from that.

[00:10:37] that was a bit of a mental journey to go through. I had one cancer resection surgery whilst pregnant. And then, after delivery, I had to go in one week after, and then two weeks after to have consecutive surgeries also. And right now in cancer free, I have to go every three months to get monitored still.

[00:10:54] going into maternity leave, really just sitting there and also just thinking, about life really. what are you doing with your career? And isn’t there just better ways of doing things? I think that those things just helps you gain perspective really on what is important, and what do you wanna prioritize, really?

[00:11:09] Where do you wanna spend your time?

[00:11:10] Justinus: So it’s almost like. Part of the reason you eventually, took the jump to both leave the country and start the business was because of this newfound perspective you gained through this adversity?

[00:11:24] Francisca: I hope I would say so, and that’s why I really am a strong believer that adversity really makes you stronger if you just choose to, to take the right, the positive mental route around that.

[00:11:35] And that’s not that easy, really. it really sucks being, you just gave a week ago birth and you have to go in, for surgery. Like that sucks. Nothing takes away from that. But, but you know. It could have been so much worse also. And again, it’s just old age is not guaranteed.

[00:11:53] We really have to just, take what we have and appreciate it and live through the full, because you don’t also turn around at 50 and then, have a midlife crisis also and be like, oh, well I never lived as well.

[00:12:03] Flip: it’s obviously, first of all, as a male, we can never imagine what your body goes through, when you’re expecting. And then on top of that, you know, illness, So, hats off to you, first of all, and thank you for sharing. Norms. Speak of adversities, becoming the first springboard captain, captain of a team, that’s not, it wasn’t really pro when you started and you just shared with us, first time when you wore jackets and et cetera, and what a big honor that was.

[00:12:27] But you know. A constant lack of funding and a constant lack of support and a constant lack of equality. when it comes to having a share of the pie. How did that whole situation form you, you know, and, and you had a job when you became from your captain, take us a little bit through your story.

[00:12:46] Noms: before I even say anything Francesca, you triggered something, to me to say that, cancer is not something that is so easy to forget anything when you talk about passing off a sibling, because, at this stage, my mom, has been diagnosed twice.

[00:13:02] she was diagnosed 2020. She fought through that. It came back again, 20 24, 20 25. So just the thought of being there for her. And we’re talking about the person that is now 70 and she has to go through all of that, you know, the chemo situation, the registry radiation and all of that. So I know exactly what you have been through and also for the fact that you just said that you were married and you were divorced.

[00:13:33] I was married, I was divorced, and then I got married again. And I’m very happy where I’m so that alone, just to be a woman, to be able to pick yourself up because I always say divorce can break or make you, for me, I didn’t break because I went through, I went through hell, because I had to fought for my, my, for my things to keep my things.

[00:13:55] But I still say if I didn’t go through that marriage, I would’ve known how to deal with the Mari that I’m in now. So it’s that I wanted to share with you to say, please keep strong, be because I didn’t know you then. I know you now. I’m, I’m definitely gonna have to book that messages on WhatsApp to say, Hey, how are you doing there?

[00:14:15] And all of that. But coming to my story, uh, when, you know, how fun is this? between 2000 and 2001 when they launched that the women in South Africa, they need to participate in rugby. At that time I was playing basketball. At that time I was playing netball.

[00:14:33] So my mom was the coordinator and she was having a seat at SEO rugby and she already started, with a hilltop, we called it Hilltop Eagles. it was a club rugby, where I grew up, Pika. She said to me, baby girl, I need you and your friends to start a women’s team. And I said to her, but we are playing netball.

[00:14:54] How is that possible? And for me, I was okay with it because I was a, I, I was a tomboy and I still believe, I still am. I was a tomboy and I, I, I think I wa I, I had a lot of anger because my father passed away. I want someone to pay for that. So bumping and doing system, I think that, for me was gonna just work.

[00:15:18] So when I started all of that and I thought myself, ah, I think I like this. This is what I’m gonna do. So from four players to six, a woman to a team of 15 ladies. That’s when it started. Rugby. And then we went for the eastern province. Then I was the captain of the Eastern province.

[00:15:37] Now we talk about our province, the Eastern Cape Province. Then I was the captain for that team. Then we were told that we need to participate. being there must be a Spring book team. Then only things change because remember, no one was ready for a, a spring book women’s rugby team. No one was ready for that.

[00:16:00] Starting from the kit. Nothing was fitting the way it’s fitting now because everything was made for men from the shots. Everything that we were given it, it needed to be taped. The jerseys, there’s a, there’s a picture of mine.

[00:16:15] Flip: No, no, sorry, just to cut in there. But, back the end of the day, I dunno if a wood was made, but it wasn’t even made for us. You know, everything was so big.

[00:16:25] Noms: Very big. So I, I said to my, I said to myself, someone needs to start somewhere. Some players need to go out there, show the world that it is possible.

[00:16:38] Then if, I guess if that was for us, that was for us to do it. Let it be no supporters in the stadium. It was just your team against that team, and then that’s it. No dieticians you, you could have. Whatever you wanted to eat before you play the game. It was okay. No energy drinks, no nice stuff.

[00:16:59] you bring your water and You share your water. There’s no such thing that it’s gonna be, there’s gonna be in infection or whatever the case. No, you share your water, all of those no rabbit boots that were today’s rabbit boots and all of that. You just buy what you can have.

[00:17:15] And then if you need to substitute, you have to go to the bench. Someone must come in. She must wait for me ’cause I need to borrow the boots. those were our challenges. So it took South Africa, to actually transition from where I started to where it’s now 24 years because that was 2006.

[00:17:40] When I went to Canada at Edmont team to play for the spring, for the Rap World Cup, for the first time we participated, but we were there to just add numbers. We were not participating. all that we did, Francesca, we sang very well. they’ll remember that we sang very beautiful.

[00:17:59] But now when you look back, with the players that we have today. And when we started, it’s totally different. it’s leveled up and I’m happy for that because we have pioneered the way and, I have no regrets because it was a good team then, but we’ve got the best now.

[00:18:17] Justinus: That’s amazing.

[00:18:18] Flip: It is so interesting ’cause you say, you know, it’s been a long time coming Yeah. You know, 20 odd years building a professional setup. But then it’s very good to see at the moment where South Africa is leading that part. And it’s very much, contending.

[00:18:30] We see it both sevens and fifteens. Rugby, you know, we have professional players and we have superstars. And we have a professional environment. and although you went through, you did all the hard yards.

[00:18:41] Noms: no, no, no payments, no professional thing. No, no, no money. No money in the bank.

[00:18:46] We have to do it.

[00:18:47] Flip: You get the little tap on the shoulder at the end of a game. we all know that, so thank you for giving everything, good luck on your job on tomorrow. And then, once you’re retired you decide to stay on, with the team and become like a management or administrative position.

[00:19:02] Would you say that was for the love of the game because you put all that hard work in, or is it really because you felt you can add more, as a manager?

[00:19:10] Noms: a little bit of both because, I’m very good with administration and I knew very well what the team needed. And, if Mr. Zi, that was now the manager of the women’s rugby at that time, if he never really, said Nons, come and try this.

[00:19:27] Maybe I wouldn’t be here today. But, for me not to say no and jump on the opportunity. I tap myself for that because sometimes we are so afraid to do things and we don’t even know how, at the long run, how much will that help you? Because I remember, loving the game Flip was loving the game because my father played for the Springbok, but it was invitation 15.

[00:19:51] Then my mom was the coordinator and was the, member of the executive at SA Rugby. my elder brother was playing for the, IPI Kings. he’s also played rugby. So we, I’m coming from a sporting family.

[00:20:04] There was no way that when I was done with my part, I wouldn’t have be able to help the ladies and be, a spokesperson, to some of the challenges that we had to go through. So for the SARP to have me, it was more of, a good thing for them because not only a in administration, but for them to understand the players that are staying at rural area areas.

[00:20:28] there’s a difference for, the person that is staying in, that is staying in Cape Town, that is stay in, in Pretoria. So please come and please understand, please have an open mind. How to get the players to have, virgin active access, why they need, and all of those things.

[00:20:43] So there was that kind of a person around that. So it was easy a rapid to. Not to change everything, but to add something because someone said something and to add something. So for real, for being a team manager, it lasted about 10 years.

[00:21:00] I had that job for 10 years. And remember, we’re not talking about money here, but at the end of the day, you do because you love, but at the end of the day, you want to also feed your family. But unfortunately, when you are a woman and you are in a position of a man, you don’t get paid the same.

[00:21:21] That’s an unfortunate part of it. I did all the hard work, but I just didn’t get, what was due to me. But because I love what I was doing, I had to do it. And I have no regrets.

[00:21:35] Francisca: Norms. That’s really fantastic. I agree so much in terms of just a female breaking the glass within a male dominated industry.

[00:21:41] It’s so hard. I’ve been told to my face that, even though I’m doing the engineering management, I can’t officially get that title because some of the clients that we’re working with, are from jurisdictions where they don’t necessarily respect women that same way. so yeah, it’s, you have to do the work, but you don’t get the recognition necessarily always.

[00:21:58] And, the remuneration also always lags.

[00:22:01] Justinus: It’s amazing to me that in today’s world, we still struggle with that. Why do you think that is, Francesca? Why, I mean, even in Canada, even in a western, advanced economy where probably most people will say they chase equality more than anything else, that things like that still happen?

[00:22:21] Francisca: My goodness. That’s a loaded question.

[00:22:24] Justinus: Just a little bit.

[00:22:28] Francisca: Honestly, I think that in time, everything changes over time, and gets better over time, but it doesn’t change overnight. And, I come from the mining industry, which is completely male dominated and there is also people from all across the world and not everywhere.

[00:22:44] People have the same necessarily, respect levels for females also, female rights in general. you know, I have a lot of, Iranian colleagues, for example, and if you take, how things are in Iran, you can’t necessarily expect them to treat me the same way as they treat their other colleagues.

[00:23:00] I think in time, hopefully, I hope that the world will move towards a place where there’s more equality, and that people are treated. Equally in terms of your contribution, versus just, where we are now. though what I would say though is surprisingly enough, I think that’s the one thing that South Africa really does well.

[00:23:18] When I was in the workforce in South Africa, they did do a lot to try and uplift females. was for me, surprising coming to what is supposed to be, a G seven country. I have experienced more sexism here than what I did in South Africa. So what is the solution?

[00:23:36] I don’t know. But I think over time eventually one will hope that the world will move towards a more just equal place. because there’s no way to just continue on, I don’t know, norms. Do you have an opinion on that?

[00:23:51] Noms: that’s why I’m saying, when I started 2000 and, the only thing that they saw is men, teaching women how to play the sport because they know better how to teach us because they played the sport.

[00:24:05] But, now it’s 20 years after now we see women that are now more of, head coaches, assistant coaches, and all of that. So, it’s what you are saying in with time, it’ll change, but it actually takes time. So we need to be a little bit patient. and just to see, you know, the transition takes its own space.

[00:24:27] Justinus: That’s such an insightful, it obviously. It’s the reality that it’ll take time. But I think the more we talk about it openly and the more we spotlight it and the more we support it, the more we can create equal opportunity. ’cause the often the counter arguments you hear, it has gotta be based on merits.

[00:24:47] And the assumption behind it is it’s not where the reality is. Francesca and Norms, both of you were in positions where you’re more than capable of doing it, and you’re actually producing the same or better results, but getting disadvantaged just because of the fact that you’re a female. Okay, well let’s jump back into the away game fca.

[00:25:08] So you’re 29, you arrive at Canada. Tell us what that feels like the first time the image I think most people often have in mind is out of cool runnings. When the Jamaica team arrives in Canada and they walk out of the airport in Calgary and it’s like minus 20, and they walk back in and put literally all of the clothes they brought with them to Canada on, and then only are they.

[00:25:35] With it to brave. And I mean, that’s a great analogy. I think for the turmoil and the change in context and the different world you walk into when you walk into a new country. Tell us a little bit about your story when you arrived in Canada. What happened and now that you adjust?

[00:25:50] Francisca: Well, I mean, that’s pretty true that’s a very accurate, depiction.

[00:25:53] I remember, I still get, get marked by some previous colleagues when the first winter was coming in and, the temperatures started to drop to like five and four. the one day I came in and I asked my one colleague with like tears in my eyes. I was like, does it get colder?

[00:26:13] Needless to say, at minus 17 today? Yeah, no, it gets way colder. it was quite a shock ’cause I didn’t know anybody here. So it was a jumping in with both feet into the unknown because I didn’t have an network. I did not know a soul. And you know, when I did come over, I had just quit my job, like I said earlier.

[00:26:31] And then luckily I got at state company A, a new position.

[00:26:35] Noms: You breathe

[00:26:37] Francisca:

[00:26:37] Justinus: yeah, you breathe. ‘

[00:26:40] Francisca: cause I’ll be honest, I didn’t realize how big a step it was that I was taking when I took it. That’s just all I’ll say because it’s pretty major. It’s not like you just quickly hop on the plane and quickly go say hello, to your family back home.

[00:26:53] It’s. Bloody two flights. There’s no direct flights from Canada to South Africa. So yeah, just when I started joining netball on this side and I just started making friends and then COVID hit, and in Canada, you know, they were quite strict with the restrictions. you were only allowed to interact with one other family, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:27:12] So, you know, people chose to interact with their family versus, some random chick who just, came from South Africa. I would say the first few years were quite isolating, I had work which I was grateful for I did throw myself into work and I finished my MBA.

[00:27:25] part-time just after COVID is when I met my husband here and that’s when things started to change because it’s not so glorious when you just pick up and go to a different country, There’s actually a lot of challenges, especially the cultural differences.

[00:27:38] I think that that is the hardest thing for me just to deal with is I miss so much just the warm South African culture where, you know, you go and make a tea and you like chitchatting with the tea lady, you know, and then you walk down the street and you chitchat with the car guard and you know, it’s just that warm, warm feeling and you just be like, Hey, let’s bright tonight, and people come over and do that.

[00:28:00] Well, I have to check my schedule and let’s plan once for a dinner. you know, it’s just a completely different culture, which I guess it’s also understandable given just how people are stuck in indoors for most of the time because of how cold it is that, you know, it’ll impact the culture versus, you know, when you just have nice sunshine even.

[00:28:18] I’m sorry, but like your winters are nice sunshine for me by now too. It helps, it helps just make people also happier and just more open and inviting. I, I’d say

[00:28:28] Flip: that cultural aspect is such a funny thing. It’s no matter where we are, it always comes back to the same thing is like, going out for a run or a cycle or something and you know, going past or you just say hi or how’s it, you know, and people don they don’t, they feel threatened or something by that.

[00:28:44] Yeah. I don’t, they say hi or people, I walk into a shop and I literally ask people like, how are you? And they take it so literal. Feel like I’m, you know, I’m someone, from a Bible study group or something coming to us to give up their life. they, they check me out before they answer.

[00:29:03] That’s actually so quite, it’s actually quite funny. So you come from a very sporty family. I don’t actually know Wobble was your brother a legend himself? Eh

[00:29:11] Noms: Yes. No, he is my little brother.

[00:29:13] Flip: even though, you know, your mom and your dad both being part of a sport team background and, you know, there’s sort of this ignorant pressure that you must just be happy with sport, wherever you are.

[00:29:23] The transition from player to manager and then now, doing your thing on super sport, et cetera, there must have been some times that you just think, yes, this is so tough. I just wish, you know, I just. Stuck to being a PA and knew what I did, and that’s it, you know? What, what were the hot times?

[00:29:38] What, which, which, which parts do you think was the hardest weave?

[00:29:43] Noms: I think, when I started playing rugby, I was already doing modeling. the challenge there was that I will go for a rugby game and then I need to walk on the ramp. I’m playing number six, and number six is doing everything on the field.

[00:29:59] Now I get a bum and I need to cover that up because. I didn’t talk about it, that I’m gonna have a gay a a match. So this other time, I was still, doing some fashion show for Michelle Brown. So I had to say to her because the game was going to be at, because I had to go with a team, with a combi, I was gonna be late for her.

[00:30:24] So I told her to say, Michelle, I’m gonna go and play rugby, but I’ll come back. When I came back, I had, a bump somewhere in here. And then the way she looked at me, she was just not happy. And she said, what must we do? So anything makeup does must fix? And then we fixed that with the makeup, and then everything was fine.

[00:30:48] But if I can tell you. being, being on commend working with people and being on the, on a, on a desk for eight hours and going for a Arabic game and commentating on game. It’s total different things. So it’s manageable because sitting in one place and, and for eight hours, I, I’m just not cut out for that.

[00:31:12] But I mean, we all know guys that, our enemy is our accounts. it’s our bills. So bills must be paid. So I need to be in that job in order for me to leave because not everything is permanent. The super support contract is not permanent. The SARP being a team manager, because I’m no longer a team manager now, was never permanent.

[00:31:31] So I wouldn’t have, resign or stop my job because of these two things. Because they somehow, they just make me be alive, be on a, On a go all the time. So I just I think I love each and everything because it gives me adrenaline. And my husband was just saying the other day to say, every time when I, when you go to Parker, you, you, you get so, and you get anxiety.

[00:31:55] Why do you do that? Why do you do that to yourself? Why do you want to, you know, because I need to have, you know, when you have facts, like now we are doing this, now I’m trying to think, what are we gonna talk about? what was the tournament where I did this? Like I’m researching, I’m thinking about this.

[00:32:08] He said, baby, relax, because you know you are rugby. I said, but it’s not about knowing you’re rugby. You need to, you’re giving information to people when they are listening, so you could be able to research. I said, please relax. You’ve got this. I think in all honesty, flip my position in, ’cause I’m working for the Department of Health.

[00:32:28] It’s there and then I love everything about it because I’m helping people to get jobs. But with rugby, there’s this closeness because my father is the only thing that he ever loved. And when he died. He died when I was still young and that was his favorite. So every time.

[00:32:46] Things change. when I watch the game, when I watch any winger, I remember the craziness of pe when it was their time, when they were playing and how people relate to me when they see me. Hey, you remind us of your father. I love that. it’s like, I’m revealing everything that when we were young, because I still remember the days when I was young, when he used to play.

[00:33:08] So I, I will never, never, never, change Or exchange my rugby passion or, opportunities with anything. Man,

[00:33:18] Justinus: it’s so amazing to me the intergenerational connectness that rugby and sport brings. Like my first memory I can remember ever was sitting on the stands at Loft with the rest of my family watching the Springbox play the All Blacks in 1986.

[00:33:37] That’s the first me, I was seven years old at the time. Definitely the connection with my dad and my siblings and my mother and even strangers. Like I remember sitting in the stands listening to the, there used to be this old man and his son that used to come from T Bank every Saturday to loft to watch the games.

[00:33:56] I mean, they were really strangers, but I have all of these memories that include them because of rugby and that connection rugby brings is just so amazing.

[00:34:05] Francisca: it’s very much a South African cultural. Heritage, because rugby really just brings people together.

[00:34:11] And even here, you know, whenever there’s rugby, that’s when I see South Africans is when you get together, you have to bri you know, you have to know your meats and meats and rugby. That’s it. Have that and then, you know, you can be South African really, with or not, you’ve played it yourself or not.

[00:34:28] it’s just so, fantastic. heritage.

[00:34:30] Flip: I wanna touch on something and, I’ll be happy for you guys to guide me in this as well, but it’s about the perception of you. You guys are both, either in mining and in rugby. You know, we’ve touched on it. It was heavily male dominated before, and it’s sort of this, it’s what a man does, you know, he goes to the morning and he takes his little scuffing and he goes to the mine and that’s it.

[00:34:48] the perception, around women in that scenario, which must be hard because I mean, if you’re an engineer, that’s where you’re gonna add most of your value. Francisco, maybe from your side, how did you, force your way into this and not be bothered by, being a woman in a male dominated area?

[00:35:03] Francisca: I’d say that my dad was very influential. in that, he raised me, with this idea that you can do anything, you don’t have to stand aside for any guy ever. and he was very supportive of my engineering career also. But also, he was very influential in me going into mining because he was in the same field.

[00:35:20] I remember going, as a young girl wearing, reflective vests and, going with him to some sites and stuff. So I guess that was also influential in that regard. If you just have that inherent confidence that has been built into you, by people who are, influential in your life, you really can just achieve anything.

[00:35:39] So I think it’s so important also to have good role models and if you don’t have that at home, find those people to listen to and just continue having that drive. Because yeah, you can do anything honestly if you just know that there’s people who believe in you

[00:35:53] Noms: I dunno how aligned, or, I dunno how I’m gonna put it, but, like I’m listening to you and I’m thinking about, you say you’re dead, you followed her and then you are wearing this, reflector and all of that and, and when you were saying that and I’m like, I’m Ima, Ima, I imagining now my father.

[00:36:12] there was this popular stadium in Kaja, in Port Elizabeth, den Stadium. Now, my father, when he goes to the field, he used to put me here on his shoulder, so if there’s a penalty. The first thing I know I had was sort of a bucket full of soil to put it on in the middle because I have to do a tea.

[00:36:36] [00:36:36] Justinus: Yeah. like north used to bolt. Yeah.

[00:36:38] Noms: I’ll have to build that sort of like that and then put the ball on top of that scent. That was what I used to do when my father used to play. So I’m, I’m like, that’s just one of the things that I can, I just can’t, it’s an attachment.

[00:36:51] I, on my mind, I just say it’s an attachment. It’s something that makes me closer to him every time. And when it’s got to do with rugby.

[00:36:58] Francisca: Yeah.

[00:36:59] Justinus: What can you say to the young girl that might be in a context where she doesn’t have that, but she has a dream to be something that everybody’s telling her she cannot be?

[00:37:10] Francisca: I honestly, think that, It’s important for you as a female to go and find female role models out there. There’s so many, especially all of us are so connected now. There’s good podcasts out there, there’s good audio books out there. If anything else, just go and put in the time and actually go and look for things to build up your confidence, because you build your own brain in everything that you do, everything that you read, and you program yourself daily also.

[00:37:36] So by choosing to, I mean, you can go and, and just sit and watch gossip call, I guess, or otherwise, you know, and not that there’s anything wrong with that, but what I’m saying is, or you can also just choose to, to dedicate like an hour in afternoon when you’re gonna be, be on the treadmill or, or something to actually just listen to something expressional or motivative motivating because, we determine who we are, we determine our own reality by what we also consume in. And you can go from, because I mean, when I got divorced, like, oh my gosh, I was so low. Because it was a very, very manipulative, relationship. And, you know, as I, I was always a strong independent woman, but I came out of that broken really.

[00:38:22] and yet, I was able to build myself back up. And that just shows you also that, anybody can go from a really, really low place by just choosing what you put in. It’s just like nutrition. What you put in is what you’re ultimately gonna get out. And if you don’t have those people in your life, all of us has access to an abundance of inspirational people that we can listen to every single day.

[00:38:46] Noms: Wow. and just to add on that is, do I always say. You’ve got the dream, but now you need to wake up and leave. And I always say you on your own. You want it, you need to get it. And unfortunately, or fortunately enough now in South Africa, rugby pays and, out of that, there’s lots of things that you’re gonna, you might not have money if you are just working in ordinary person like me to go to Canada, to go to England, to go to New Zealand for the rap World Cup to go to England.

[00:39:20] Now in this previous World Cup, like you travel. When you play sport, you meet, other, characters. When you play sport, you become a better person. you get disciplined when you play sport. So do it for yourself, not any other person. And when I say it pays, now, it pays. For most of the players that I know that have, beautiful stories to tell are coming from not that other teams, other countries don’t have, specific stories to tell, but.

[00:39:49] Not beautiful story, but sad stories of players that are playing for the South African team that are coming from poor families. So it’s paying so that you go back home, you build a house for your family, you eat, now you can start further. Those are the beautiful things that rugby comes with.

[00:40:08] not only rugby, though, any spot and anything that you think you put your mind on, Wake up from the cream and do it.

[00:40:15] Flip: There’s actually one thing that stands out for me. and I hear you about getting your role models about women that succeed in the same place, but it’s the influence of your father’s had in your life.

[00:40:26] And I think especially in South Africa context, that’s so important that people listen and the people realize the influence a father has on its household. You know, early childhood development is a big struggle in South Africa typically because, fathers have to travel to get work, in either in the city or where they are, or just, they just abandon families.

[00:40:43] we’re not known for the best fatherhood example in the world. and I think it’s so important that you focus and, you two are living examples of how, a dad, a father influenced you into making a decision. You could be anything you want in the world.

[00:40:56] it’s still up to you to just go and do it. just don’t be scared, don’t go against it, but just do it. and I think that’s an important point that stands out. It is important reminder for myself as well. you have to be present. I have to be a dad. I have to lay that foundation.

[00:41:09] Francisca: Yeah. 100%. I agree with you. I’m a big daddy’s girl, and I think that that is definitely very influential and, all of you guys now have the opportunity to invest in your kids also.

[00:41:22] Justinus: the limits in our world is the limits we place in ourselves and, our own thoughts.

[00:41:27] Either we think it’s possible and we give it a try, or we think it’s impossible and we don’t even try. And actually that just that distinction makes a big difference and, and what we end up doing. So jumping to waking up from the dream and doing it, was it a day for both of you when you felt like, okay.

[00:41:46] The struggle. Most of the struggle is over now. I feel like I’m succeeding. I’m getting where I need to do. Talk us about getting to the other side and feeling like you can keep your head above water. Now you know what you want to do. It’s becoming successful. You gaining momentum. Francesca, do you want to go first?

[00:42:06] Francisca: I, I’d say that I, I still have imposter syndrome no matter what. I, I think that I always will. But also I tend to be a bit more on the ambitious side, so it’ll take a lot for me to say that, yeah, I’ve achieved it, and this is it. yeah, it’s a, I actually forgot the question.

[00:42:26] Justinus: So maybe, was there a day when those initial struggles from moving country, changing the context, fighting in the industry where you haven’t achieved whatever your biggest ambition is, but it felt like the hardest part of it is now over you’ve adjusted, you’ve met your husband, you’ve had your daughter, you have your family, your work is going well.

[00:42:47] Was there a just a time where it felt like, oh, now I really am going in the right direction?

[00:42:53] Francisca: I’d say that, in a role that I was in about four years ago, maybe five years now back, I was placed, in a role where I not only, you know, was doing project management, but I was also managing the study managers.

[00:43:08] within that context, I, I really started to feel like, okay, great. I actually finally have a, a seat at the table. I’m being respected. I, what I’m saying is actually listened to and feeling that like you can actually have an influence. That, that would, I is what I would say was the moment really for me.

[00:43:25] But that was also a fantastic organization. Their motto is to find a better way. So in everything that you do, you have to just. Think about finding a better way. And I think that that is just so healthy.

[00:43:37] and so good to just have that perspective. And I think that that also just made it easier to just find your footing if you’re just in a positive, positive environment. But it’s very hard to find that when, you are, you know, not respected, where what you bring to the table is shot down because of politics and because of everything else.

[00:43:55] And I guess that’s also what drove me to decide during mat leave, why not just give it a go and, become an entrepreneur and build something really cool.

[00:44:04] Justinus: Holmes was there to die for you where you felt like the struggle is a bit over and you where you want to be, or you’re just so ambitious.

[00:44:12] There’s so many more mountains you want to climb.

[00:44:15] Noms: The struggle is still on personally for me, where I want to be. Definitely I’m not there and I’m really, really running out of time because I’m 47 and I hate myself, for that because I’m failing myself. because I wanted the girl child to understand more, especially those that don’t have fathers, that isn’t really not the end of the world.

[00:44:37] Some they do have fathers, but they’re not present. But you can’t be angry for the world. You need to move on and do something about that. But I wanted my podcast to be, in a platform of talking. Talking is closer to our, but the platform is, it grows, it goes to, other provinces.

[00:44:58] But I wanted to speak about women in sport. that’s personal for my side, but when I say the struggles on, we still need to find it, the, the, to be global for the SBO women. we have tapped now that with the women, the SBO women are getting paid, professionally, which is we tick that box.

[00:45:18] At least we’ve done that. They get to have access now. They get that from the, the Virgin active. We tick that box, sponsorship. For women’s rugby, not the sponsorship for Spring Book women, but for women’s rugby, we take that because we now, recognize that, they are here to stay.

[00:45:38] It’s not longer and nice to have something. Now they are here to stay. We take that box. we now need to, invest more to get the Newsland player, teams come to South Africa and play. We need to have the competitions like URC to the ladies to participate that like, the top tie teams to be able to come we need to get to the stage where when you speak about the Springboard women, you don’t speak about budget.

[00:46:09] you just say it’s something that needs to happen. If you are saying that there is gonna be a championship, that, so Springbok men, they’re gonna play against England, they’re gonna play against Scotland, they’re gonna play against Wales. You need to have that in line with the springbok women.

[00:46:24] That’s what, hence I’m saying it’s still a struggle, but we getting there. But we are not there yet.

[00:46:30] Flip: that’s such a good point. And it’s a point so close to my heart because I’m all for fairness, you know, and it’s maybe not equality, but just fairness is like we all participate in the same sport and it’s something we love and, even the men, I think today, you know, the men are not getting paid enough.

[00:46:45] you see what’s happening in France, for example, as they watch more rugby than they watch football. but, we are not even making the best international players are not making close to what the fourth or fifth league football player is making, So it’s not great, but it’s focused on a positive and especially on the women’s rugby

[00:47:01] and there’s another touch point, because, STEM is also, Something close to my heart. I’m a undercover mathematician. in the consulting industry, we struggle to employ women because they don’t go study science and mathematics.

[00:47:13] That’s not something they, that’s cool or what they wanna do. And it’s not, it’s not being, you know, on all the social medias, you don’t see people, you know, developing formulas for fun. So it’s, it’s, it’s quite difficult. But, in the women’s rugby, you see this graham week, this girl’s graham week going on at the moment, and it’s getting the same publicity as the young boys.

[00:47:31] and that’s great. And, you’re seeing the movements forward. Where do you guys see, where do you guys see noms in the next five to 10 years? Women’s rugby. Same Francisco mining for women five to 10 years. Where, where are we moving to?

[00:47:43] Noms: for the Springbok ladies. I see them having that cup for the first time in history.

[00:47:48] I’m just seeing them being champs for the first time in their lives, winning the world rugby. Because, what they did, in England last year for the first time they won the quarter finals. Something that, they are not quarter finals, but the coming out of the pool.

[00:48:04] We never done that before. Never. So that’s a big step for the women’s rugby, team. So, not even,

[00:48:12] it’s

[00:48:12] Flip: like island in the men’s world cup.

[00:48:14] Noms: Yeah. So you talk about 2029. I’m not talking about 2029. I’m talking after 2029. I’m talking about that cup and we need to bring it home.

[00:48:24] Justinus: That would be amazing, man. The first women’s rugby world champ for South Africa. hopefully we can all be there.

[00:48:32] Francisca: Well, I mean, it’s overdue. it’s overdue because like, considering how many cups, the men have brought home, there’s some real rugby pedigree that needs to start shining.

[00:48:42] Justinus: And for you, Francesca, what’s next in the next five to 10 years?

[00:48:46] where would you like to take your business?

[00:48:48] Francisca: well, business versus the industry, two different things. I do wanna use the business as a platform just to specifically also get more involved in terms of, university level discussions, especially with females. Also just to do mentorship and help get more people just these type of fields, really, business wise.

[00:49:09] The sky’s the limit. And, I really wanna grow it big. I’m already working on a second and a third project though I need to be, less focused on that and just finish all of the development work now for the current, product range. But man, artificial intelligence is just gonna completely change the, modus operandi, for any form of a white collar job.

[00:49:30] I wanna really be on the forefront of that and help take people along the journey and educate them because, I do believe that, AI isn’t gonna take the job, but somebody using AI will. at this point in time, I’m doing, educational for folks so that people can start seeing where AI fits in, how to use it.

[00:49:47] And that is just gonna change completely. Also, just what we think about what is actually a job in five years time, which is why I’m a little bit, apprehensive at this point in time in terms of, well, where are we gonna sit in five years? Because is there even gonna be a reason for example, junior engineers to go into the marketplace?

[00:50:03] Because fortunately, I mean, I had that moment when I built my GPT and I started really pushing it, and I started seeing the answers that had got back. I had this one moment where I was like, oh, shoot, like I just replaced a whole tier of employees by doing this. I mean, that wasn’t the intent initially.

[00:50:23] And you know, there’s lots of positives also around it. but it is gonna be interesting how to still motivate people to go into these type of fields when there isn’t necessarily such a long-term, clear view of, well, what is it gonna entail? And I really wanna wrap my head around that and see how I can be a leader in that versus just, you know, also somebody who takes advantage of it.

[00:50:50] Justinus: It’s definitely gonna be a fascinating five, 10 years ahead and how the world will change and adapt. I think for me, I’m just trying to be as adaptable as I possibly can. ’cause even the wildest projection might turn out to be not wild enough or too wild. We don’t know yet.

[00:51:06] Francisca: Yeah. Well, I mean, I, being on the forefront of it, I think that people, are still underestimating.

[00:51:13] What AI is actually gonna do to our societies, and to just the job market in general. So the good thing about that though is, you know, maybe it will encourage people to do more things that, that you know, they’re passionate about versus also just taking some form of a technical role for the money, behind that.

[00:51:32] Because, you know, I was told all throughout high school, ’cause I also. The loss of sports, but I was told all through high school, sports doesn’t pay. Sorry, you’re a girl. You know, they they

[00:51:43] Flip: were right.

[00:51:44] Francisca: They were right, they were right. but that also pushed me into a certain direction.

[00:51:49] But when no longer, it is that okay, the technical jobs are gonna be where the money is at, will it bring people back to have more of an appreciation for arts and culture and, these types of things that actually is meant to fill your soul. Though I will say I’m such a nerd, though.

[00:52:06] Anything form of engineering does for my soul. So I can’t say that it doesn’t, and that it’s not a passion project. but it’s gonna be interesting.

[00:52:15] Flip: It’s very interesting. I just feel, you know, as Excel, didn’t take away accountants. So a AI will just augment, every other way of our work.

[00:52:24] Just before we end, We have a little tradition where we ask our guests to ask each other a question. Francisco, do you have a question you wanna ask norms?

[00:52:33] Francisca: So growing up in South Africa, we never had rugby even as an option in schools.

[00:52:38] and it was just not available. I mean, that’s about the time that I was also in school, high school, I was surprised by the neighbors across the road, their daughters play rugby here in Canada, of all places.

[00:52:52] they were asking me, when it was the rugby World Cup, are you watching? And they wanted to have a watch party, So just in terms of women’s rugby development, where do you see that going? Is it something that, like when we grew up where you had your options of playing either netball or hockey, do you see that with the work that you’re doing, that it’s starting to infiltrate into schools yet?

[00:53:12] Or is it still very much a, you have to select it and find a way to do it type of sport?

[00:53:19] Noms: For schools, Francesca, it has not started like your grade r because I think, those are the platform that we want, I want to speak into to say that if you really want a good athlete, you need to start from the root.

[00:53:32] when the child is like now 16, then you don’t want to start the child there to show how to pass the ball. That’s already a grown person. So you want to start them? From Grade R, obviously they’re not gonna be wearing talks, all of that.

[00:53:48] the growth must start there, but we don’t have that as yet. However, the under 16, under 18, under 20, we do have a pathway of developing young women. So at least that, they go and feed the senior team. So we’ve got that in place, but I don’t know who feeds the, under 16.

[00:54:07] I don’t know who fits the under 18 because it is not start in a primary school. That is where I want the actual, the rugby to start. So I think that going forward, it’s something that, but it’ll come very quick because the way things are changing for women’s rugby, it’s like, it’s amazing. I need to apply everyone that is involved in changing this idea.

[00:54:28] I mean, changing, people how they, How they think about women’s women’s rugby because Every day there is a change. So I know for a fact it might not be 2026, but 27, 28 going to 2029, we will have primary school playing rugby.

[00:54:43] Francisca: Nice.

[00:54:44] Noms: Yeah. I think I’ve got two things just to you know, when you, when you, when you lose, I, I’m not, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna, make you feel sad again, but just when you lose a sibling, I have not lost any sibling.

[00:54:59] Yes. I lost my cousin who I was, very close to 2024, but I have not lost a brother like Langa. Those are my two brothers that I love so much. But I know I’m scared of cancer. I know for a fact, and I know the woman in my life because our father left, passed on when we were still young.

[00:55:21] So I’ve got a warrior woman at home who is, she’s 70, and she still wants to live longer. But there’s this thing, and how do you, take care of yourself knowing that there’s someone at home that has cancer?

[00:55:39] How did you work around your brother? Because you knew that he’s going through, this type of illness, but how did you act when you actually see him just before he died? How do you cope with that? How did you cope with that?

[00:55:53] I don’t know if my question makes sense, but

[00:55:55] Francisca: Yeah, so in terms of, when my brother was, towards the end, I was lucky enough in terms of when I heard the news that, he was going into hospital again and I threw my dogs in the car, drove down, arrived there at night and was in hospital the next day with him just supporting him, and just being there for him.

[00:56:15] That was a week until he passed. So that final week was quite rough. at the end terms of cancer, somebody, really looks frail also. it was the worst. honestly, it was the worst week, I would say of my life.

[00:56:27] But all you can do for any person really is just give them humanity and just give them love. Because if you start treating people just differently as if they are frail and sick. I think one of the things that we can just give to each other is just that humanity, especially towards the end.

[00:56:45] And just to be there no matter what. And to listen and to talk and to even just sit and hold a hand and not necessarily doing anything, but just knowing so that they just know that you are there also.

[00:56:57] Noms: Yeah.

[00:56:58] Francisca: Honestly, that was rough.

[00:57:00] Noms: Yeah, it’s,

[00:57:01] Francisca: I do not put that on anybody.

[00:57:04] But, that is also part of life. unfortunately, like I said, old age isn’t guaranteed. So just let that take you in and just think about, how can you just also, what are the things that scares you, maybe that you can just push yourself because, or how can you just be, just live life to the full?

[00:57:25] Because you never know. You never know.

[00:57:27] Noms: Yeah, no, the last one is that, your company. Would you ever, introduce it in South Africa?

[00:57:33] Francisca: Oh, it is global.

[00:57:34] Noms: Okay.

[00:57:35] Francisca: Yeah. No, it serves the entire global mining industry. What I’ve done is I’ve taken all of the mining, corporate filings and put it into an AI brain effectively.

[00:57:48] And now you can actually, work with that brain. I built in a Gentech AI system. and you can then, in other words, query it about, you know, okay. I’m working on this asset. It has these characteristics, you know, where are there other projects that are similar and, what are the risks for these projects, et cetera.

[00:58:07] So it is already global. IT services the entire mining industry. And it’s only gonna grow bigger. So yeah,

[00:58:13] Noms: you go girl,

[00:58:14] Justinus: Well, what a wonderful conversation, ladies. It’s really been a privilege to look at the world through your eyes for an hour and understand some of the challenges and opportunities and excitement that you experienced.

[00:58:26] So thank you very much for joining us and thanks for playing the Y game with such vigor and winning it and setting an example for goals all over the world that you can win in mining, you can win in rugby, you can do things in places where nobody is expecting you to succeed. So I really appreciate it and thanks for being vulnerable and sharing such amazing stories.

[00:58:50] Flip: Thank you ladies for joining us. probably our most enlightened episode so far. Changing perceptions, all day is not guaranteed. Just do it wherever you are. Chase the away game. Love it. thank you guys. Goodbye.

[00:59:02] Noms: Thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity,

[00:59:04] Francisca: guys.

[00:59:04]