Season 2, Episode 2: Start Anywhere

[00:00:00] Justinus: Good morning and welcome to Winning the Away Game, the show that explores what happens when the environment change and the scoreboard disappeared.

[00:00:09] Stephan: I was completely blown away. I wanna be like these guys.

[00:00:12] Justinus: Uh, the money would’ve come in

[00:00:13] Adriaan: handy. I just couldn’t see myself. Um, even if it was for a short while, for two or three years, sacrificing what I, what I had in South Africa.

[00:00:21] Stephan: I’m building their dreams. What happened to mine?

[00:00:24] Adriaan: Drag is gonna end at some stage.

[00:00:26] Stephan: You just need to do the work.

[00:00:27] Adriaan: Business is tough

[00:00:28] Stephan: if you prepared. To work for it. Every everybody can do this.

[00:00:42] Justinus: Good morning and welcome to Winning the Away Game, the show that explores what happens when the environment change and the scoreboard disappears. Today we have two fantastic guests, performer, springboard, captain, and luckily I can say a former Blue Bull player as well. Adrian Strauss, known for trust, steadiness, and presence, now focused on business, studying and family, and who’s been researching.

[00:01:11] The transition that players go through after a professional career. And on the other side we have flip. And my coach, a former sports lawyer and athlete manager now leads wingman multi-sport training that helps professionals rebuild health, identity and momentum. Good afternoon, flip. What’s it like in France today?

[00:01:35] Flip: Justina, I’m very excited for today’s episode. It’s probably as exciting as it is scary ’cause I’m interviewing the two people that probably knows me the best. My former roommate and captain and best friend, Arran, and my coach that’s been along my side as an attorney, as a friend, as a coach, pulled me out of the deepest of deaths of my own weight and my own mind to make me human again.

[00:02:00] Stefan Ves, I’m very excited for today. Aja and Stefan, we’re welcome on the podcast. Thank you for joining us. Where are you guys today?

[00:02:09] Adriaan: Hi guys. Just flip Veev. It’s good to see all of you guys. So I’m here Sunny Pretoria and yeah, it’s always better to see someone in person and catch up. Flip. I saw you in Veers the other day, but, um, yeah, it’s just nice seeing your faces and having a good conversation.

[00:02:24] Stephan: Thanks guys. It’s, uh, awesome to join you after listening and following the show for so long. Uh, I’m joining you from Poolsville in Maryland, which is, uh, just outside Washington DC on the East coast, and it’s about seven o’clock in the morning. Uh, and I’ve been looking forward to this for some time. I’m just nervous as hell, but let’s give it a go.

[00:02:43] Flip: Don’t be nervous. And it’s probably called poolsville because he loves sending it to the pool when you’ve got nothing to do. Do a few laps

[00:02:49] Justinus: in winter. Yeah,

[00:02:51] Flip: in winter. Um, so we’ve got a little tradition on the show. It is like we like to start off, um, with something we all love Your favorite Springbok memory.

[00:03:01] Uh, you’re not allowed to say Joel Strunsky in 1995. You have to go a bit original. Stefan, what’s your favorite spring book memory?

[00:03:08] Stephan: It was a rugby nut growing up and still am, but I used to see a lot of test matches live. I used to travel across the country and see in many games I couldn’t. And one memory that is ing my mind forever was the test against the All Blacks in Kings Park.

[00:03:24] I think it was from memory 98. And we were behind. Can’t exactly remember, but I, I wanna say 23 5 with five minutes to play.

[00:03:34] Flip: Yep.

[00:03:34] Stephan: And I remember us scored a, a brilliant individual try, and then sort of the guy started believing again and then we scored another try, almost wanna say Bob Skinstad. He was one of his first tests.

[00:03:45] I think he came on his replacement and he score. And then James Dalton, uh, powered over with the alpaca forwards in the last second of the game. And we won that test. I think I, I remember 24, 23. And seeing that live and being there and from going to a hopeless situation to winning the All Blacks. And I think we just beat them the week before in New Zealand, first time in many years.

[00:04:06] So we expected this huge backlash and then we did get it, and then we somehow brought ourselves out of there and won that game in the last second, which is a special memory.

[00:04:16] Justinus: You got it right. It was 24 23. I still remember. That came vividly. It was freaking amazing. It was a,

[00:04:22] Stephan: it was such a good experience and, and, and for us from Bloom Fontine to go to.

[00:04:27] To Kings Park to see how it’s done, how they have the pre-game, you know, entertainment and how the people were Bri and, and, and just such a great experience before the game and, and then again after the game. Uh, it just, it was, those were special types.

[00:04:42] Flip: You, um, you remember the scores? Justine’s, I don’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

[00:04:48] Uh,

[00:04:48] Justinus: I had to look it up as he was talking. I wanted to look it up and he got it. Right. Exactly.

[00:04:53] Flip: A John, what is your favorite Springbok memory?

[00:04:56] Adriaan: Oh, so my favorite Springbok memory was definitely my first test. It’s at least cliche to say that every single moment in the Springbok jersey is special, but it’s, it’s actually true.

[00:05:07] And, um, it was definitely the best days of, of my playing career. But yeah. I can probably save my life is to be in an environment like that. And it’s an, it was an absolute dream come true. And I remember in 2008 I played my first test in, in, uh, Australia. And it was, uh, the way I got there was, was a bit interesting.

[00:05:28] I got to the airport and as I was getting onto the plane or got to the gates, I realized that I had the wrong passport there because myself and flip, actually we went to Botswana, um, a bit a month or what before that. And um, so my visa was in the, the other passport, so by KO Crook and Lee Murray, I dunno how she actually did that.

[00:05:53] Got someone in bloom fontine to open up my flat, got my mother to help there and, and get my other passport through the passport up with the next, uh, pilot from Bloom Fontine. And, um, I had re route a bit, but I only arrived in, in Australia. Uh, I think the Wednesday. Um, the guys were off on the Thursday, so we did a couple of line outs in the, at the hotel there on the, on the grass, and then, uh, had the captain’s practice the next day.

[00:06:21] And then I played that Saturday. I got my first opportunity to play. So it’s not the, you know, probably not the best way to get your first test, but it was incredible and, um. I’m also not a guy that actually panics or stress quite, quite easily, but I felt the butterflies that day. Um, they incredible moment was amazing.

[00:06:40] Flip: Cool story.

[00:06:41] Justinus: That must be one of the weirdest requests. A pilot ever gets a pilot. You you mind flying on Strauss’s passport to Joburg?

[00:06:49] Flip: Yeah. I I think, I think luckily in South Africa everyone is about a little bit springbok crazy, so Yeah. You see it as his national duty to fly. Yeah.

[00:06:59] Stephan: It’s only in when you can get something done that quickly.

[00:07:01] Flip: Yeah. Stefan, you, you said that you’re an absolute sport nut. Uh, you infamously dressed up as a chicken or what was the, the, the mascot to get access to a cricket change room and take us through that story.

[00:07:17] Stephan: I was the first mascot of the free state cricket team. It was called the Goodyear Eagles in those days, and they had a mascot.

[00:07:23] It was a, the Eagle, it was called Nelson. And, uh, I was the first guy to wear that suit, and it became my, my hobby. And then I did a must have done a good job because I also became the standard bunk stand. Um, and then I did the local games and the international games, which was, uh, a real special, uh, experience.

[00:07:44] But what it did was it gave me access to the change room. And that only happened through Han because when it, when it’s when I started, it was, uh, the first time we had a mascot and there was, you know, the media wanted to take some pictures and some of the sponsors wanted to do things with this new mascot, but I kept on disappearing after the matches.

[00:08:03] They could never find me. And, and one day Ansy said, what happens to you after the games? And I said, well, I’m so embarrassed. I’m so self-conscious because I’m sweating in that suit. I smell so bad, I just wanna get home and take a shower. And I said, there’s no way to shower yet. And he says, of course there is.

[00:08:21] Why don’t you come shower in the cloak rooms? I said, no, I don’t think it’s my place. Uh, he says, I’m telling you, it’s your place, so you’re welcome there anytime you’re part of the team. And that was a big deal for a first year of ity students. And then I started, you know, befriending the guys and they were all semiprofessional and, and I started doing them favors.

[00:08:41] Like one would come out from the crease with a broken bat and he said, I, I don’t have time to do this tomorrow. I said, but I’ve got time. I’ll do it. So I, I started doing little favors and fast forward five years, I’m now a lawyer and, um, finished my studies and, and then that’s when cricket started getting more professional and the guys were getting offered contracts and, you know, still being a friend of them.

[00:09:03] They started asking me to advise them on their contracts. I remember the first time I, I looked at a cricket contract. I said to the player, I think everything is fine. I think, I think this, you can sign this thing. And he said, but I want more money. And I said, but, uh, he says, how do I get more money? I said, well, I think we’re just gonna ask for more money.

[00:09:22] So I phoned the CEO of FreeState from my office with the player in front of me. And keep in mind, the last time you spoke to me was when I was his mascot, when I used to go and knock on the door to get my envelope with 200 grand in. And, uh, I called him and I said to him, Stefan VA speaking, I I’m representing one of your players.

[00:09:42] And he burst out laughing. He thought I was, you know, joking with him. And I said, no, I’ve got his contract here and we’ll sign this contract. But we won 50,000 grand more. And, and he said, I can’t lose this player. And, and, and I’ll, I’ll pay 50,000 grand more. And I put the phone down and it was, we got 50,000 grand more.

[00:09:59] And it was like. It. I couldn’t believe it was that easy. And the player was obviously very happy. And the next day there were five of them sitting in my waiting room, all wanting 50,000 ran more so in time I, I realized there’s way more rag money in rugby and so I moved over to rugby. But, um, I think it’s changed now again.

[00:10:15] But yeah, if you couldn’t start any lower, I was, my career started by, you know, at the bottom by being a, a, a mascot for, for the cricket team.

[00:10:25] Flip: Sweet.

[00:10:25] Justinus: It’s such a awesome story, Stefan. Um, there’s this book Series’s called Go Giver, that really talks about this principle that you’ve just embodied in that story.

[00:10:35] That when you starting out, especially in a new context, it’s so important to, to look for ways you can add value to the people around you lives. And if you do it properly, then, then your influence will, will grow over time. So that’s one of the best stories I’ve heard. That’s a real life example of, of what those books try and bridge.

[00:10:57] Stephan: You, you’ve alluded to the fact that there’s three old grays on this podcast and, you know, we’ve got this secret handshake. And one thing that, uh, I couldn’t believe was when I went out to the middle for, with a TV with ans he would step up and give me a gray shake on tv and then, um, only the two of us knew about it.

[00:11:15] It’s, it’s sort of the secret code that not a lot of people know about. But to see that happening behind the scenes while on live TV is, was my first realization of how special that is.

[00:11:26] Flip: I, I, I should have known it as easy to ask for more money earlier in my life. Uh, Stefan, um, would, would it be harder,

[00:11:34] Stephan: especially for you,

[00:11:35] Flip: but, you know, money and, uh, rock and roll.

[00:11:38] Adrian, you famously decided to, to stay loyal to South Africa. Never, never ventured to the money pots of Europe, uh, to go play a rugby. Take us a little bit through your decision making. What hap what happened there?

[00:11:50] Adriaan: Uh, the money would’ve come in handy. I just couldn’t see myself, um, even if it was for a short while, for two or three years, sacrificing what I, what I had in South Africa.

[00:12:00] Um, the lifestyle, I was very content at the moment or at that stage, my family affairs. Uh, I was involved with business that was probably the most, uh, difficult one to, to, to circumnavigate. Um, so yeah, I, I needed to get to, to the office that I was involved with. Um, I need to. I needed to spend time with the other ventures I had, and I wanted to, to stay with the family.

[00:12:25] And, um, so, and I enjoy South Africa. Um, I’m not saying that lightly. Um, if you, there’s a lot of great countries, you know, that you can go play rugby at. But, um, to sacrifice a bri and, you know, spending time with your kids the way we do here in South Africa, going to the bush, um, you’ve got your spots where you spend quality time with, with the people you love, um, your family.

[00:12:51] When you hear about people leaving, um, the, all of them, they’ve, they’ve got their reasons. You know, you’ve got a guy like flip, sell this out. But, um, now everyone’s got their own reasons, but, um, I just enjoy it too much. Yeah.

[00:13:04] Stephan: In every agent’s nightmare.

[00:13:06] Adriaan: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Justinus: Yeah. You can get him more money and he doesn’t want to take it.

[00:13:11] Adriaan: Exactly. I can concur

[00:13:12] Flip: now. Um, I do, I do miss my brows. Um,

[00:13:15] Justinus: yeah. And the bush baby. The bush, oh

[00:13:17] Flip: my

[00:13:18] Justinus: word.

[00:13:18] Flip: I think it’s interesting for the listeners to, to know that you actually made the decision to invest in business quite early in your career. Why did you decide so early on that you have to build something and prepare for the life after rugby?

[00:13:31] Adriaan: I always knew that rugby and every single player knows that rugby’s gonna end at some stage. Um, but I think it always stuck with me and I knew that I had to prepare, but apart from that, I was always interested in, in studying in, in business. I think my first venture when I was still a youngster, I actually bought the guest house and it, it went quite well.

[00:13:52] And, um, it was a good one to start with. Business was always interesting for me and, you know, when the guys were playing golf on the off days, that’s where my golf is, is pretty crappy. Um, I never did that. So I always worked. I went to the office, uh, went to something that I was involved with and, you know, it, it was quite tough to sacrifice because especially there was four years when I played every game at the spring box except for one, uh, game, I think against Wales.

[00:14:21] Because I’ve got a yellow record on a tackle against Damian or Lender and, um, so I missed that one, but that’s the only one I missed in that four years. So, you know, if you think about it, you’ve got an inbound tour that takes about a month. Uh, you at that stage, a super AP tour that was full five weeks.

[00:14:41] Uh, the Tri Nations back then was close to two months, and then you’ve got the end of the year tour. So five months out of the year you are traveling, then you’ve still got the local competition that you also travel weekends and all of that. So if you look at it that way, you haven’t got a lot of free time.

[00:14:58] And if you then commit all your free time weekends, you do functions for a company or for yourself. Uh, not, not for myself, but for the business you’re involved with. And every single off day, during the week, um, you go to the office or where you’ve got a offer day off, you go to the office. So looking back at it now, um, I don’t actually have a lot of off time.

[00:15:19] Didn’t go hunting, didn’t go golfing, didn’t go anything like that. But I was so. I don’t wanna say intrigued by business and in it, it was exciting at the time and for me at the time, it was worth it to pursue that and to learn and to engage with the business world early on. So, um, it was quite tough. It was quite tough.

[00:15:40] I now need to catch up on my golf and should probably go for lessons ’cause really I’m terrible, but. Yeah, I sacrificed quite a bit, but I think it was worth it and, and it introduced me to a lot of people and to a lot of business concepts. So I’m, I’m very glad that I did that.

[00:15:57] Flip: Stefan, since early days, you weren’t only entrepreneurial in the ways you were doing, but you know, organizing boxing matches and selling watermelons and some people will see it doing anything to make a quick buck.

[00:16:09] Other people will see this entrepreneurial. What do you think is that mindset out? Where does it come from that you always stay entrepreneurial? Never settle, never. You never calm.

[00:16:18] Stephan: I think it’s a curiosity for me. It was definitely from an early age, I was, I was interested in it and I was, I was, I was fascinated by it.

[00:16:25] And you know, my uncle was a, was a former, just outside and he would, he was a very generous man and he would bring. His friends and family, a lot of fresh produce, and I realized that there’s more of these things under our kitchen table. We didn’t have place to stack these things anymore. So I realized that there’s more of these things in our house that we can, that we can consume, consume.

[00:16:45] And I started selling it in the neighborhood. I was 10 years old at my first business. I started getting guys in this, my friends in the street to come and help me distribute this and open more roots in other neighborhoods.

[00:16:54] Justinus: That’s awesome. So aan like, um, Stefan said there that early drive to business, I get the sense you had that, I mean, you’re one of the outliers in the conversations we’ve had for players who started worrying about that while they were still playing.

[00:17:09] But, but what was the earliest, uh, memory or, or thought where you realized, one, I I can be a leader in this environment and, and I can do business, uh, and I can do more than just being boxed in as a rugby player. Tell us a bit of a story around that.

[00:17:28] Adriaan: Justina I, to be honest with you, I never actually saw myself as a Raki player.

[00:17:33] I think since birth I was so passionate about Raki. My mother used to say that I slept with a Raki ball, um, and not a teddy bear. But I never thought that it’s a realistic career for me. I always enjoyed, I can’t say I enjoyed studying. I never studied, but I enjoyed learning. So I think I might probably be the only grade two guy that wanted to be a actuary.

[00:17:54] I, I didn’t actually know what it was, but I knew it included math. So I wanted to do that, and I worked towards that. So I think in my first. The first time I realized, you know, that rugby beat can be a reality for me was in Matric. Um, they gave me opportunity actually under 16. I started playing a team and then had a couple of games, first team, standard nine, and then Matric as well.

[00:18:18] And then I got offers from three or four unions. So before that, playing professional rugby was never a reality. My reality was, I’m interested in business, I enjoy maths and accounting, and, um, I wanna, I want to go pursue something in that direction. And then when I started, you know, after school playing rugby, it actually dominated everything because even as a under 19-year-old, I’m living my dream.

[00:18:43] But the, the passion for learning and business was always there. Um, I wanted to, to start businesses. I wanted to be involved in businesses and, um. Yeah, so I, I think it was always there, you know, throughout my playing days, but I also kept in the back of my mind, I also knew that, you know, this is not gonna last forever.

[00:19:03] And I think I might be, I don’t wanna say a bit more PEs pessimistic than other guys, but might be a bit more of a worst case scenario guy where I thought, okay, you know what if I get injured, what if I get injured in six months and I’m 20 years old? And then when you’re 25 you think, what if I get injured now and I’ve got a little girl at home?

[00:19:23] And, um, so the responsibilities grow. And um, so that was definitely in the back of my mind as well.

[00:19:29] Justinus: And so why, while you were sort of the early start of your career, what was the first business venture you, you came across and jumped into? Tell us a little bit about how that happened.

[00:19:40] Adriaan: Like I said, the first one I did was a, was a guest house.

[00:19:43] And um, yeah, I can’t exactly remember how it happened. I think I had one of my friends at a guest house and he was also quite young and said he’s making a lot of money. So of course I drove to the first couple of guest houses that I saw was in the market and, but it worked out well. So I think that was a bit, uh.

[00:20:01] I just following one of my friends, um, just a bit of eagerness to get going and to break the ice. Um, and, and then after that, you know, even now I’ve started up with a few companies that, that I really enjoy. There’s a lot that I still want to, to do and achieve and start and, but I’m also very content if I achieve any of the goals that I have in business, um, it’s not gonna change the way I live, um, at all.

[00:20:30] So I’m extremely content on the one side and on the other side, I’m, yes, there’s so much that I still want to achieve and it keeps me up at night and, you know, wakes me up early in the morning. Flip will say that I don’t get up early in the morning, but I actually do, especially if you’ve got small kids at home.

[00:20:48] Um, but yeah, so there’s, there’s so much that I want to achieve, but I’m actually so content as well. So I, I, at the moment, it’s a, it’s a very good balance for me and I’m quite happy where I’m at the moment. Yeah.

[00:21:01] Flip: It’s very good. Um, I need to jump in there ’cause you say you don’t, you don’t like studying? Uh, it’s probably because it doesn’t need to be studying and people won’t know, but it’s probably my most intelligent friend.

[00:21:12] You did your, your MBA and actually research our sports people can adjust their lives to be more successful after their careers. Why did that trigger you so much and that you feel you had to write hundreds of pages around that and tell us a little bit more. I think there’s a lot of future sportsmen listening to this and old, old people like me also listening to this.

[00:21:35] What can we do better? Um, what, what are the, the, the text that you can give us from that?

[00:21:41] Adriaan: Yeah. I’m slowly realizing that I’m actually just following all of my friends and just copying them. Because when you did your MBA, I thought, oh, there’s no way you. You can have that without me. So that’s why I jumped in there.

[00:21:54] Um, not competitive at all. Not, not competitive at all. No FOMO at all. Um, so no, I, it was actually during COVID that I thought, you know, for the first time in a long time, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve got off time and I, I’m always trying to, to learn something new, reading a couple of books that’s interesting. And I thought, well, I can just as well formalize this and do something, spend this time that I’m now exploring topics and all of that.

[00:22:22] I can formalize that a bit and do a proper course and at a proper university. So that’s how I started the, the MBA course. Um, and, you know, a couple of months in I realized it’s, it’s a bit more work than I thought it would be. We got to the topic of the dissertation that you had to write. I was actually first leaning towards something else and then all of a sudden I realized, you know, looking at a lot of your friends, some of them.

[00:22:49] Are really well off. I’m not only talking about financially, but, um, a lot of guys are struggling with issues that I’m, I’m, and I’m not saying that they, uh, they’re devastated, but I mean, a lot of guys are still struggling with issues, uh, post racking. So I thought, why can’t I do something to try and understand this topic a bit better?

[00:23:10] The transition of a rugby player had the opportunity to ask yourself flip. And also a couple of senior springboard players and captains, you know, how did they transition? Uh, how did they prepare in order to see, uh, especially because I thought, you know, these are individuals, in my opinion, that transitioned quite well, or perceivably transitioned well.

[00:23:31] So I was trying to extract good themes there that you can, um, maybe assist and help players for the future. A year or two has gone by or, or went by and I thought, you know, well. The thesis or the dissertation was quite interesting, but I haven’t felt like I’ve actually given anything back, or, and, and that’s why I’m continuing with my studies now to see if I can develop something that could actually make a difference and all the information and the data that I get.

[00:24:00] If, if there’s something tangible to show at the end of the day and not merely, you know, a dissertation or, or, or a bit more knowledge in my head, but something I can share and something that can actually make a difference.

[00:24:12] Justinus: Why do you, I mean, ’cause that identity shift for the player from being a player and to, to the next phase of life seems to be something that much more challenging that than what my perception was from the outside.

[00:24:26] What’s the biggest thing that you think players struggle with when they need to make that transition?

[00:24:32] Adriaan: Justina, to be honest with you, each and every player, each and every individual is different. They come from different backgrounds. Um, they’ve got different goals in life. They prepare differently. They, they want to achieve different outcomes in life, but there are a few that really stand out and you mentioned it now, that identity, that athletic identity.

[00:24:56] I think if you very close or, or you’ve got, got a very strong athletic identity and you, um, it’s definitely more difficult for those guys to, to adapt to post, post rugby life. Uh, I can’t necessarily say all sport because I only looked at rugby now, but, you know, I think this is common in numerous sporting codes that if, um, you really identify with the role you play and not who you are as a person, it does make it a lot tougher.

[00:25:29] Justinus: Efan. What’s interesting for me is you almost deal with a bit of the reverse, the executive who doesn’t see himself as a athlete and, and now he needs. Overcome a little bit of that identity shift so that he can get the benefits of being more active, being and participating more, et cetera. Tell us a little bit about some of the struggles and changes you’ve seen there

[00:25:51] Stephan: and not so much what I’ve seen, what I’ve personally gone through, because that’s exactly my story.

[00:25:57] I am, where I’m now in the business because of what happened to me in 2013. I was successful on the outside. The business was doing well, starting to do well, and, but I was personally a bit of a mess. I was extremely overweight and unfit and unhealthy and I was drinking a lot and I was in a, in a bad space.

[00:26:17] And I went to the Iron Man event in Port Elizabeth through work we, we started discussions with Iron Man to start helping them with their commercial rights packaging and I was invited to the event as a guest and I remember. Standing on that beach hung over as usual and seeing 3000 people about to do Ironman.

[00:26:38] And I was, I was completely blown away. I was, I couldn’t believe what I, I’m seeing, and here I am, you know, feeling like a dog’s breakfast and, um, I’m seeing guys who are getting ready to swim 3.8 kilometers and then bike 180 kilometers and then run a marathon of 42 Ks. I thought, I thought it’s, I thought it’s a challenge to see if anybody can do that.

[00:27:01] I couldn’t believe it’s possible, but then at that exact moment is I, I decided, uh, I’m done with this. Um, I wanna be like these guys. I wanna, there’s more to me than what’s standing on this beach. And I promised myself right there, I’m coming back next year, I’ll be in a wetsuit and I’ll do this thing. And, um, that’s how I started.

[00:27:19] I went back to Banville. I googled, found a swim coach, learned how to swim, and the next year I stood on that beach and I did the Ironman. And I, I went back the next year again, but by then a whole new world opened for me. And I’ve, what I’ve gained personally, um, you know, gave me so much more energy. I had no new body composition and I’d got so much from it that I made it my mission to help other people do the same.

[00:27:44] And, um, so, so yes, a lot of my clients come to the sport. Uh, there’s actually a, a, a even split, I would say, between guys who were former athletes. A lot of these high achievers in business were high performance athletes, or, you know, they were at, at, at least at university level, uh, great athletes. And then they fast tracked their career and got outta shape.

[00:28:07] And now when they, you know, in their forties and fifties, they, they wanna become athletes again. Uh, they realize it’s not too late. So that’s half of the story. And the other story is. Guys who were never athletic, but who are now in their fifties, they came to the point where they realized their, their long-term health is now, you know, compromised.

[00:28:28] And, and, and the decisions that, that they make now with the time they have left will have a significant impact on their, on their quality of life when they’re old. So, so they come to the sport. I’ve got many clients who’ve, you know, also learning to swim in their fifties who are acquiring new skills, who are buying their first bicycles, who are buying the first set of running shoes.

[00:28:51] And, and, and those guys are successful. They, they get the job done because they, you know, they, they follow, follow a proven system and, and they do the work. They, it’s, it’s not always the, the program that you can credit. You have to put the work in. Uh, if, what I love about the sport is you don’t need any talents.

[00:29:09] You don’t need any natural gifts. You, you just need to do the work. I mean, if you’re prepared to do the work, and you don’t have to go and do six hours a day, but if you’re prepared to work for it, every everybody can do this. It’s not for the athletic, gifted, or the previous sports stars or professional sportsmen.

[00:29:27] This is for everybody.

[00:29:28] Justinus: That’s such a cool story. Um, there’s this amazing book I read a few years ago called The Time to Think, and in the first line in the book, she says, nothing in your life will change until you’re thinking about it changes. And your story perfectly encapsulates that, right? ’cause everything changed the moment you were on that beach and you had this personal revelation that I, I need to change.

[00:29:49] I need to change, I need to think about this differently.

[00:29:53] Stephan: Yeah. But you, you also sometimes needed trigger. So, so the Ironman was my trigger, but for a long time before that. I was looking at myself in the mirror and I was not happy with what I see. But you keep on making excuses and you keep on postponing it and say, I’ll start in the summer, or I’ll start on Monday, or I’ll start next month and I’ll start in January.

[00:30:14] You’re clearly not happy with what you see, and you can see how you, you know, go backwards and how you, it just gets worse. But it’s that vicious cycle of, you know, you, you don’t sleep properly, you drink too much, you don’t eat healthy. It’s doing a lot of damage. The, the damage just compounds. Just like if you start working out, that also compounds.

[00:30:35] So you, you need to choose what, what, what’s what. You’re gonna let compound and yeah. A, a, a series of bad decisions and a, a bad lifestyle, um, can be reversed if, if by adopting a few micro habits and, and, and getting going. It, it’s, it’s extraordinary what it’s possible. I’ve, I’ve, I’ll tell you, I can show you before and after pictures.

[00:30:57] We just had a, a mutual friend lost, you know, he, he weighed 175 kgs. Uh, he’s now 110 and he’s, he’s doing 70 point threes. He’s now gonna do his first Ironman soon. He’s a whole new person. And if that guy can do it, and if I could do it, anybody can do it. It’s really accessible to everyone.

[00:31:15] Flip: If, if, if I could do it, then know I can do it.

[00:31:17] That’s

[00:31:18] Stephan: another great example.

[00:31:19] Flip: The, the, so Stef you said, you know, initially went back to Dural and now you’re sitting in, in Poolsville, um, not ex, not exactly the same spot. You left your law career, you left your sports career, you went over to the us. Um, you sold fertilizer for a while. It didn’t, it take the, the coaching step initially, you hesitated a little bit until going full tilt.

[00:31:46] Uh, takes a little bit, but in that period that the, the, the, the great period of, of us not going full on for the coaching, and now that you’re doing it, you, you’re excellent in it.

[00:31:55] Stephan: Yeah, flip for us. You know, we had an opportunity as a family to immigrate earlier and, uh, we decided it wasn’t the right time and, and everything didn’t align perfectly.

[00:32:04] So spoke to a lot of people before I, I wanted to leave and, and then the decision was made to stay. And then one day out of the blue, we, we get a email. Uh, so my wife is involved in, in research with especially infectious diseases, and she worked with the US and China on Ebola, uh, tb, uh, aids and, um, few diseases.

[00:32:30] She obviously did well. She’s, she’s very bright despite a, a poor taste in men, and she caught someone’s eye and they, they basically send her an email asking her to, would she consider, you know, joining their team in the US And that, keep in mind, this was in the middle of 2019, um, before COVID. So, you know, just before probably the biggest infectious disease ever.

[00:32:54] Uh, yeah, we decided as a family this is amazing opportunity. We are gonna take it and it’s a bit of an adventure and, you know, I had kids, I think they were six and eight, so there was a perfect time for them to have a overseas experience. And, you know, I wanted to, to grow my business. So a few things happened at the same time.

[00:33:13] I was now, you know, starting to coach and the coaching business was growing and I was, that was now my obsession. And I, I thought, you know, if I can go and scale this business in the us, uh, there’s no better place to, to, to start something and integrate, make it bigger than in, in the us. So I was gonna take a sabbatical and, and come across, uh, we, we thought we, we got a soft landing and it ended up being the, probably the worst timing ever because by the time we’ve sold everything and signed the contracts and arrived in the US on the 15th of January, 2020.

[00:33:47] Um, we just settled. Uh, I’m on my sabbatical. I’m deciding I’m gonna, you know, get, get the kids in school, get us cars, get us a place to stay, um, you know, get the kids into sport teams and figure out how I’m gonna scale my business. And when we have, we, by the time I had all those things, you know, executed, it was a, a day or two and it was a COVID lockdown.

[00:34:11] So I then sat at home. I didn’t have a work permit, so I couldn’t work and I, I couldn’t scale my business. It was just an a, a, a very, very unfortunate time. But, uh, then through a friend of mine in South Africa, I, I found a, a company wanted to scale in the US and started working for them, uh, first as a consultant out of South Africa.

[00:34:37] And then when I got my papers, I started working, you know, I had to find a job because by now I’ve been sitting on the sidelines for two years. And, um. Then I just realized one day, you know, I’m, I’m working for, for other people. I’m, I’m building their dreams. What happened to mine? I need to build something.

[00:34:55] It’s, it’s gonna depend on what I’m doing. It’s, uh, I wanna be in a position where if I do well, it’s because I’ve worked hard and, and made good decisions. If I, if I don’t do well, it’s because I’m not working hard, I’m not making good decisions. I want, I want all the pressure on myself. So that’s how it started.

[00:35:11] It, it was, uh, it’s off to a terrible, the, the worst start possible actually being impossible to build this business. And, and now that the world’s reopened and the events are back, and in a few years down the line, things are, are compounding nicely

[00:35:26] Flip: and they are, um, Adrian. So any sportsman or woman’s biggest fear as, as the day it ends, probably you manage to step away.

[00:35:37] You’re being captain of a team. Um, and then just one day decide. That’s enough taking, you know, hanging up my boots to end. How did you decide? This is, this is the day I wanna stop. Um, I’m done. I’m over it now.

[00:35:51] Adriaan: Yeah. Flip it. There was a bit, let’s say it was multifaceted. There was a lot of things that I considered, um, I wanted to go into the business world, uh, where, you know, I wanted to pursue a couple of things.

[00:36:05] Um. That was partly, that was one, one aspect of it. The other one was physically I, by that time I had, uh, lower back fusion, five shoulder operations, a couple of hand operations, but, but close to 10 operations. And I could actually feel it when I was playing. Um, you know, when you get a shot on the shoulder, everything goes numb.

[00:36:28] You have to throw into the line out, um, after a scrum, if someone just, if you just, if they just need a specific pressure point, then everything goes numb. And, um, so I don’t think it was dangerous for me to play, but I did struggle with a neck and I knew that I, you know, I was going, going to have a neck operation at some stage and, um, but I thought, you know, my body was giving way, but I was fortunate enough to, uh, apart from one or two big injuries when I, one shoulder injury when I was actually out for nine months.

[00:37:01] Um, the rest of the injuries I could, you know, pretty. Pretty much manage like the back operation. I could manage that to end of the year, then get the operation after the season. And I did that with a lot of the shoulders as well. So I didn’t actually miss a lot of game time. So I played a lot of rugby in 14 or 15, 14 years.

[00:37:22] So I, you know, I thought I was quite fortunate, and I don’t wanna push it too far. And I think, you know, in a 14 year career, my last, or not my last two years, but two out of the last three years, you know, for me, the game wasn’t the most important thing anymore. Well, that’s how I viewed it. For me, the game was, but I mean, there were so many other issues that I had to deal with.

[00:37:47] Um, and, you know, it, it totally took the joy out of it. Uh, stole, stole the joy, if I can, can put it that way. Uh, but I then, I actually played another year and, and, you know, I, I thought, you know. I was in the best physical shape that I’ve, I think I’ve ever been. I really trained hard, worked hard, played nicely, um, enjoyed the time with the boys and I thought, you know, this is, I’m in, in my view, I’m finishing on a high, or personally I’m finishing on a high, ’cause I actually enjoy the rugby the last year again.

[00:38:21] And I, you know, considering all of this, wanting to spend time with family, um, to be honest with you, I couldn’t go on tours anymore. Um, the little ones at home, uh, I, I just thought that there were so many aspects of it, but I just thought, you know, it’s the right time for me to, to hang up the boots. And like I said, I did have opportunities overseas that mattered a bit more difficult.

[00:38:42] ’cause you need to consider, you know, there’s this carrot hanging there that you can chase the financial one, the commercial one. But, um, yeah, never, never, never actually swayed me. And, um. Yeah, I’m looking back at it now. I, you know, probably could have played a year or two, uh, another year or two, but I’m, I’m happy with my decision and, uh, yeah, I think I, I made the right decision for me.

[00:39:07] Justinus: Wow. That, that’s such a, those delicate decisions that, that you can look back and with, with confidence is, is, is always fantastic. Um, and it sounds like you, you feel very comfortable with that decision you made.

[00:39:25] Adriaan: Yes. Uh, like I said, I’m comfortable sometimes when I go to the ATM and I imagine there could have been a couple of years in there.

[00:39:33] Uh

[00:39:33] Justinus: oh, zeros. Yeah.

[00:39:35] Adriaan: Zeros and euros are both.

[00:39:37] Justinus: Yeah.

[00:39:37] Adriaan: But I could have been better, but, um, after I’m, no, I’m very happy with my decision.

[00:39:43] Justinus: Talking about euros. Um, Stefan, you mentioned, um, one of the things you did was a negotiation and, and helping John Smith make a comeback in France to earn some euros as well.

[00:39:54] Um, tell us a story. We are all here.

[00:39:57] Stephan: Yeah. So, um, Joan Smith, not John Smith, the supreme captain, John Smith, the free state flank flanker, in my view, one of the greats of the game. He was my very first client. So, um, you know, my business was essentially built around him. And, and, and my second, my second client was CJ and Linda, and both of them played more than 70 test matches, so I was again lucky.

[00:40:18] But John, you know, having been involved since his very first contract and seeing him, you know, make his debut and I was there the day he made his debut, um, it, he, he, for some reason we ended up with the tickets and not his parents, but my wife and I went to the, to his debut and because it was such a big deal for a guy for where he comes from.

[00:40:39] Especially John’s story to, to then have this fairytale ending that had a, a very unfortunate, uh, abrupt end to his career just before that. So he, I dunno if you guys remember, but he, I think it was around 20 11, 20 12, he, after four unsuccessful operations, he retired from rugby. And, um, I remember at the time the, the folks blood, uh, had a run, ran a story on the front page and they asked me for a quote because I was synonymous with his career.

[00:41:11] And it always, always called me anything around John. And then I remember quoting that they, they put a quot in there that I said that, you know, this is such an untimely, uh, finish that I, I’m, I don’t wanna believe the story there, there has to be, the story has to end in another way. I, I’m, I’m, I don’t believe that this is the end.

[00:41:31] Even though it was the end, it was, you know, after four unsuccessful operations, he, he called it a day. Just couldn’t. And then in that period, I, I moved to Cape Town and, um, lost contact with John. And, um, I, I had a meeting in Bloom, Fontine, and I flew in, and the meeting, the, my flight back was delayed. And I remember going to the golf club to meet my buddies, and we were drinking beer.

[00:41:54] And my, my phone rings, it’s a agent from France, my colleague Lauren La who says he’s had too long, they’ve just lost their flank out for the season. Do we have any, uh, proper loose forwards that they can sign? But it’s urgent, it’s big money. Um, you know, by then they were, you know, building their team. They had all their, you know, they, Johnny Wilkinson and Matt Gito, and Bucky was there, and Oh, and, and they were in, in a, spending a lot of money in building the best side ever.

[00:42:25] And, um, I, I said to him, listen, this time of the year, there’s no one available. All the, all the marquee players have contracts. The only. Only players that, that are available are the ones that, that don’t have the profiles yet. It’s like a vast cup player. It’s not the right profile for the club, but there’s no Springbot players available.

[00:42:44] There’s no no marque signings they can have. And, um, and was the end of the conversation. But I said to him, let me have a think and I’ll call you back. And three beers later, I call John Smith. I say, John, um, are you really, are you really, you know, was that the end? Is, is your, can you, can you, can you run again?

[00:43:06] Can you, is there no way you can play again? And he said, unbelievable timing. He says, uh, he ran today for the first time in, let’s say 18 months. He says he just ran two or three kilometers and the first time that he has no pain. So what happened was after that, that report on the front page of the Fork’s Blood got published, a local doctor from Bloom, Fonta and Dr.

[00:43:29] Clear, who was more known for his knee ops. He, he called John, he looked him up, he got ahold of him and he said he has a new technique that he thinks will fix him and if he’s prepared to, you know, to undergo the surgery and he won’t charge him. So out of desperation. Um, and there’s a bit of a backstory.

[00:43:49] You know, John then started farming. Uh, he didn’t get a drop of rain on that farm. He was, he, he, he, you know, he was, his cash was running out. He, he was at a, at a, at a, at a low point in his life, uh, and then desperate agreed to this operation. So now he’s back. Nobody knows about it. He’s just running, started running that day.

[00:44:11] I’m on the phone to him. I, I called that agent back after I spoken to John and I said. John Smith’s running again. I say, how much time have we got? He says, John Smith. He says, um, we don’t have a lot of time. We’ve got two weeks. I called John back, I said, John, I can get you a a a a, you know, a trial at too long and if you can pass the medical, because they’ve obviously done their research.

[00:44:35] And Lauren said to me that they, they, it’ll be, you know, uh, subject to a, a, a very stringent, uh, medical checks and, and, and tests and which he can understand. So I phone John back. I say, listen, pal, um, is is a window opportunity here, but we, we don’t have a lot of time. So now John says, no, I need three weeks to get fit.

[00:44:57] Uh, I said, we don’t have three weeks. We’ve got two weeks. I called Laurent back, he says, I said, maybe two, three weeks. He says, no a week. And that’s how it started. They’re playing for time. Eventually I was, I called John back, I said, we, we, we have to run now you have to train. Like never before we have to, we’ve, we don’t have more than two weeks.

[00:45:13] I think we settled on two weeks and then we, we booked the flights and, and, and we had some flights canceled and we ended up being three weeks and he kept on training, training. So now we arrive in too long. Um, I think by then he played 69 test matches all this, you know, all this expectation, but all this, this whole thing about can he actually play again?

[00:45:33] And what we didn’t know was the, the owner of Tulon Murra Bal, he got a hold of the world authority on Achilles injuries, a doctor in Marsai. And they said to us when we arrived there, we’ll do the tests on his heart and his lungs and blood tests and all those normal tests. But you are gonna be subject to seeing this guy if he says.

[00:45:58] John can play again. There’s a contract. If he, if, if he, if he can’t play, then if he, this guy’s not happy, we’re sending you back. Um, there’s nothing. So now just again, you know, John, by then, super anxious, uh, desperate, uh, he’s, his things are not going great at home. He is, he’s, he’s, he’s running out of cash and, you know, such a great of the game to now have a, a glimmer of hope on the one side.

[00:46:22] But he sort of made peace of the fact that it’s probably a, a, you know, just one, just maybe out of reach. And I remember we, this doctor was on holiday, so too long, called him and he said he needs to come back from holiday and he needs to see this player right now. So this guy arrives there. We go to his practice, they drive us there.

[00:46:43] He arrives in, in lops in a, in, in a running short on holiday. And the practice is locked. They open the doors and, and put the lights on. And, and, and, and, and we nervous as hell. We, we don’t. This whole comeback story is now, you know, hanging in the balance here. And the guy, they took extra x-rays. Fuck, like, so they, they took x-rays the day before and now we have this x-rays in this envelope, and we give it to the guy and he puts it up in his lights and he looks at it and he looks at it and he, he starts speaking French to Lauren and he sits down and there’s this airy silence.

[00:47:20] And then he says, whoever fixed this knew what he was doing. He says, you all never have any Achilles issues ever. You are clear to play. And, and, and, and that moment was, was. My career highlight as a, as an agent and, and as someone involved in sport and, you know, a rugby enthusiast to, to see this guy. And I know the backstory.

[00:47:45] I know where he comes from and I know how hard it was to retire and what he tried to stay in the game. And, and for him to get that news, he, he, he burst into tears. John is known as a hot man, you know, he’s not a, it’s not a guy to, to, to, to show his emotions. And he grabbed me and, and he, and, and we just sat there and we, we, we cried.

[00:48:06] So like, I’m about to cry now, but we, it was such a powerful moment. It was, it was, it was incredibly. And then he was from that, from the tears, he got up like a, like a, oh, he said, okay, let’s go. I wanna, um, take me to the training field. I wanna, I wanna give, get, get some tackle bags. Uh, I wanna, I’m, I’m now so fired up and we, we went to, we’re at AL’S office.

[00:48:31] And I remember sitting there and, and discussing the, the contract and I was looking out at the window and John was, was literally destroying the people there on the field. And I knew this guy’s back and now he’s got this, you know, it’s like a, he, his new found energy and, and he knew he could escape his situation.

[00:48:49] But the, this, the fairytale ending of that story. I remember watching him in the, uh, in the Heineken Cup final the year after they scored the winning try. Uh, and, and I, I think it was against Sisons. They, he scored the winning try, winning the Heineken Cup. I think it was 2014. A week later he had another blinder and, and, and won the French top 14 title.

[00:49:11] And, you know, that was a, a very personal, um, experience from being there from the start, seeing him at his lowest. And then again seeing him getting a new lease of life, a new injection into his career and. And then from there he played in, in Tulon. And then I signed Dwayne from Mil in his place. And, and he then went to Japan.

[00:49:33] And then when he retired, we moved Dwayne from Milan, from Tulon to Japan. It’s, it’s incredible how these things work, but, uh, yeah, it was a, a very special memory. A, a very personal one and a very emotional one. And, and something that, you know, the rugby public are not always privy to is these backstories and, and the personal struggles these players have and, and, and, and how unfairly, you know, we, we treat rugby players.

[00:49:55] The, the, the, as rugby supporters, we don’t consider them being human. We don’t, we, we can’t, we don’t allow them to make mistakes. You know, we don’t work the same every day. We don’t train the same every day. We don’t. We also have good days and bad days, and they also have good days and bad days. They also, uh, a family member has cancer.

[00:50:14] They always, they also have a wife who has a miscarriage. They also ha go through the exact same things that we go through, but we, a kicker misses a kick. We say he’s useless. Um, if someone has a bad game, we call that he must be axt. It’s doesn’t the, the public treat these guys very unfair. They, they’re human beings.

[00:50:33] They just have a, and another gift that they don’t have. And I think, uh, one thing I learned as well was how, how harsh these guys are treated, uh, for mistakes they make. That’s, that’s a hundred percent, uh, understandable. I mean, nobody’s gonna catch every single ball thrown at him. Um, there will be a knock on, there will be a, a line out throw that doesn’t go in straight.

[00:50:54] It’s, it’s, it’s part of the game. The player’s not useless.

[00:50:57] Flip: I have, um, it’s such a good share that Stefan and I’ve, uh, now when you spoke, I just had this memory of, of John Smith as well. You know, I was a, a young and struggling lock there at the Blas and you know, we, in blue foot, everyone, everyone was staying in, in, uh, at the state called Woodland Hills.

[00:51:17] And, uh, I mean, John was already decorated, Springbok won the World Cup, um, uh, you know, had no interest in taking, not taking care of me, but, you know, bothering to, to, you know, about my life or whatever. But he saw something like, you know, there must be something in the sky. There’s something to do. And all he, he just told me in his, you know, very soft and delicate way one day, you know, all, all you have is your fitness, you know, and there’s the, there’s like a six kilometer trail that in that Woodland Hills, and he made me run every morning, six o’clock he was there and he was running with me.

[00:51:55] And then he went on his day and trained for the cheetahs and trained for Springbox or whatever, and made me run. Just like, you know, that little, you know, someone believing in you somewhere and you think it can, you know, didn’t immediately show results, but you counted for a lot later. Later on in my life.

[00:52:11] Stephan: A hundred percent.

[00:52:13] Flip: Yeah.

[00:52:13] Stephan: The, the people that I’ve seen that. Achieve the most are the people that are, that are prepared to do that extra bit. You know, if you think what a big deal is, you, you and Arj on both became springbox. But you know, it’s every light dream in South Africa. Every kid wants to play for South Africa and it’s a very competitive environment.

[00:52:31] It’s not like only certain schools there, but there’s rugby in every neighborhood. And, and for, for, for you to become a springbok, you really have to be one of 15 players out of a country with, uh, you know, thousands and thousands of thousands of kids who want that same thing. And, and, but what I’ve having worked with guys like yourselves and, you know, having the, the privilege to represent both of you and, and having some other Springbok clients and spring of captains and, and the, the outliers.

[00:53:01] What I found was all of them, all of you guys were prepared to do more. You didn’t do, you know, not, I don’t know. One, one of, not one of my clients became a spring. Because he was naturally more gifted than anyone else. Yes, there were guys who were faster than others, who had bigger muscles or whatever, but you really had to do something extra.

[00:53:22] And you need, you really had to do that consistently. And which is exactly how endurance sports work. You have to do the work, but you have to do, you have to do it consistently. But, um, those little things. I remember John telling me that the Springbok came to speak when he was just at the, the, the, the Springbox came there and the Springbok captain at the time spoke and he said, from all you guys sitting here already playing representative rugby, only, maybe only one of you will become a Springbok.

[00:53:48] And right there, he decided I’m gonna be that one guy. And so what do I have to do? I, if I have to work harder, then bring it on and I’ll be the guy who works harder. So it fits in with your story. He was always prepared to do more. He run six Ks before his training day, just. You had to do more, you had to sacrifice more.

[00:54:06] And like Aian said, instead of playing golf and playing PlayStation on a Wednesday, you went to go work. So everything you want in life is on the other side of consistency and working harder.

[00:54:15] Justinus: And I think that’s one of the main things for me on, on working with Utan and getting fit, that consistency and the compounding effect that happens.

[00:54:24] I was traveling for the three weeks and didn’t get my exercise in, and now I realize the pain the last week coming back, um, of, of starting up again. So that consistency is key. Are there in, in business for you, what’s been the biggest surprise or lesson you’ve learned once you’ve transitioned full-time into business?

[00:54:43] That that, that you can think and share and, and help other people?

[00:54:48] Adriaan: Uh, the biggest lessons I’ve learned is, um, just, there’s quite a few, but one of them is business is tough. You think rugby is tough, showing up on a Monday, uh, body aching and you have to. To, you know, do malls and scrums and run around and new fitness.

[00:55:06] And, you know, I always looked at the business world and thought, you know, you just go to work. You just go do what you need to do and everything will work out. Um, business is tough, I think. Um, it’s also very rewarding. Um, I think you get rewarded for the efforts that you, that you do, that the effort that you put in.

[00:55:26] But something, and it’s, it’s quite a strange topic, but something that I’ve seen that we didn’t have the opportunity to develop as a rugby players. The one is leverage, um, and the other one is negotiation. So in a rugby environment, you’ve got people like steer fun. That assist you once every year, every two years, negotiating your contract.

[00:55:48] Apart from that, you don’t negotiate anything. You don’t go to the coach and negotiate your game time. You don’t go to your opposition and negotiate, you know what the score might be or I know in the older days they told each other, this is my ball, the next one is your ball, that type of thing. But there’s no aspect of Rappi where you actually negotiate as a player or not a lot like you do in a business environment where you basically on a daily basis negotiate in some sense.

[00:56:17] And I think because of that, you don’t actually. Get taught the aspect of leverage in that I, I, I don’t necessarily only mean that in a negative way, the negative pressure or negative leverage, but in a business transaction or in the business world, you often find that there’s a stronger party or party with, with more leverage.

[00:56:40] And that is where you have to negotiate and negotiate better. And, and oftentimes, you know, that leverage does play a bigger part in the negotiation or your day than, than just your ability. Um, so I don’t think that those two topics is something that you get exposed to in the rugby quite a lot. Um, but there’s also a lot of transferable skills that you, you do have.

[00:57:02] And I think a lot of players that retire must know that you don’t just. Forget how to be a leader. You don’t forget how to work hard, you don’t forget how to show up, you don’t, um, that’s self-discipline. And to be honest with you, rugby is an emotional sport as well. You play in front of a crowd, it’s, it’s a physical game.

[00:57:23] You, you struggle with injuries. Your body feels it, but your mind feel it as well. And that resilience, um, that you, um, that resilience that you build, I think that’s actually worth something in, in the, in life of the sport. And I think players often forget that when you have a injury that you know, guys.

[00:57:47] The next week they start with their therapy, they start training again. They push through the pain. And you know, the moment a lot of guys get into a situation after rugby, they feel, you know, I, I might not be able to do a quick Excel spreadsheet or I dunno how, where it works or, you know, I dunno how this sales structure work or I don’t have specific knowledge in the industry that I’m in now, but I think there’s a lot of transferable skills that, that players have.

[00:58:16] And a a lot of that is based on resilience, hard work, leadership, teamwork. Um, so rugby, there’s, there’s a lot of attributes that you can carry over from rugby as well.

[00:58:27] Flip: That’s so, so beautifully said, so easy. So, so easy. It sounds, huh, it’s so difficult to, so difficult to do. Um, Stefan, you are an overweight, very successful executive.

[00:58:42] Sitting at your chair or watching this on YouTube instead of going out in the sun walking, what’s your advice for him?

[00:58:48] Stephan: Stick to the fundamentals. Um, don’t try and now go and do a Euro workout in your first day back. Start with five or 10 minutes. Just, um, try and improve the basics like sleep. You know, if you sleep better, you’re gonna wake up more energized.

[00:59:05] If you have more energy, you’re gonna have, make better decisions about the day and do more, get more done on the day. And I would say, you know, everybody goes for the personal trainer or the at home gym. They try and buy something or they try and hire something. But start with, you know, walking is probably the most underrated exercise in the world, especially if you can.

[00:59:26] Load some weights onto it. It’s called racking. It’s basically a hiking with a, with a loaded backpack. That’s an incredible exercise. It, it gives you the endurance because it’s a low heart rate session, but it also gives you the strength. ’cause you’re now, your, your legs are working harder. So, you know, start, and, and, and it, most people have a, that you were describing have a movement problem.

[00:59:46] So start moving more and then you know the basics, like sleep better, drink more water, eat healthier, make better decisions. And then you’ll see, um, like Justina was alluding to earlier, if you, I mean, both of you started at, you know, 15 minutes, 20 minutes swim, fall lengths or whatever it was, run for 15 minutes or run 10 minutes or walk one minute and run one minute.

[01:00:09] Do that 30 times. Um, just meet yourself where you are. If you’re level zero, then just do make small little increments every day and get the, I would say start the fundamentals. Uh, sleep is a superpower. The older I get, the more I realize. How important sleep is. It’s when your body rebuilds itself, it’s when, so when your energy is restored.

[01:00:31] Um, so if you’re not sleeping properly, you, you, you’re probably compromising a lot of things downstream. But, uh, the, and then it starts compounding, like just was also saying, you know, you, you, you, you have more energy, so you get more done. The more you, you more productive you are, you know, the more success you have.

[01:00:48] And then you, you, it’s unbelievable to see how boundaries expand and how quickly it happens. But you have to be consistent. You don’t need four hours a day. You don’t need 30 minutes a day. You can do a lot with 15 minutes. Um, I have these leg bastard workouts. It’s 10 minutes and, and, uh. And that

[01:01:07] Justinus: tough.

[01:01:08] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:09] Stephan: Tough. Stay 10 minutes. They’re horrible. And, and there’s a lot you can do. I’m sitting here, uh, with these things ’cause I sit still, I have to do something. Uh, I, after every call, I get up and do a few pullups or do something. It’s just all little habits that I taught myself. I’ve got a kettle be next to my desk.

[01:01:25] If I get up, I swing it a few times. I never used to do that. And, um, I’ve, because it’s the most energy I’ve ever had. I’m, I’m in my fifties, uh, I’m, I’m in the best shape I’ve ever been. I’ve, yeah, I’ve, I’m, I’m very ex excited about every day and build things. I’ve, I’ve got a lot of energy and it’s because I changed the fundamentals.

[01:01:44] I, I used to be the exact opposite and, and I just started the fundamentals. That’s my best advice.

[01:01:52] Flip: To jump in there, Stefan, on your own, the importance of walking. So last year we start this program and now, you know, I’ve always backed myself. I was rather fit. I could do whatever I needed to do and so, and then get this massive, it’s a process and sign on or training peaks and whatnot.

[01:02:11] I’m gonna start training now and my first program comes and I’m expecting, you know, I’m gonna go run. The four oh oh kilometers, two and five. Five days. 400 and, and my first program, my first was a, was an hour walk, I think, or something like that. It was an, it was an hour walk. And I, like, I told, I told like, no, no, no, I don’t think this is, this guy’s like, and I had to go, I had to go for an hour walk.

[01:02:36] And the, and the difference that our makes because if you, yeah, if you start running for an hour eventually, um, it makes all the difference.

[01:02:44] Justinus: But I mean, it was such a mind shift for me. ’cause like I’ve been unfit and overweight for most of the last 20 years. And, and periodically I would feel that bolt of inspiration and want to go do something, but then I would all, always overdo it and either like, get blisters, get injured, do too much, can’t walk the next day, and then the sort of enthusiasm dissipate and, and your approach that just completely the opposite has been transformational for me.

[01:03:12] Completely.

[01:03:14] Stephan: A hundred percent. You have to start where you are. You have to mute yourself at, you know what you can, you need to dominate the workout. The dominate doesn’t need to dom the, the workout doesn’t dominate you. If you saw afterwards, especially in the beginning, it’s gonna, it’s gonna put you off.

[01:03:27] You need to, you need to start slow and, and build. Um, there’s a flip. You shared that YouTube video about, is it, uh, the guy who starts with a painting, uh, who can draw Brad, but a picture of him on, in different shades of gray on a piece of paper? And, and, and his, his message, basically, he started with one block.

[01:03:49] Everybody can, can turn one block, color that in with gray, and then all different shades of gray, you know, creates a picture. So start with one block at a time and, and, and just do something small. And it’s called the Goldilocks principle. You know, you do something ridiculously easy if I say to you, okay, you wanna now improve your body composition?

[01:04:08] So instead of going to the gym and do three sets of pull-ups. Why don’t you do one pushup today? One, we’ll walk for one minute because it’s so ridiculously easy that you, you do that one and, and, and you will wanna do two or maybe three, but if you’d scale that up in, in over time and you won’t believe where you’ll finish, like Kipchoge said, the best time to plant a tree was was 25 years ago.

[01:04:34] The second best time is today. Um, you, you, you need to start, you don’t have to start with crashing IROC type workouts, but just go and walk for five minutes tomorrow. You walk for six minutes. That’s how you start.

[01:04:47] Justinus: Okay? So one of the traditions we sometimes forget, but we really wanna make sure we get in today between the gray boys, is allowing you guys to ask each other a question.

[01:04:57] So, Stefan, you want to go first and, and ask Adriana question?

[01:05:02] Stephan: Yeah, I’m happy to, uh, Adrian, I’ve, the question I’ve always wanted to ask you, as a staunch cheetah supporter, you know, being born and bred and bloom, uh, the cheetahs, when they started playing super rugby were always hammered. We always braced ourselves for 50 points, and then all of a sudden it changed.

[01:05:20] Um, when, when you were there, what was the recipe for that turnaround of success? Where we went from having no hope to starting, you know, winning at home and then starting winning abroad.

[01:05:32] Adriaan: It wasn’t an overnight success. It took a long time to, to get that, you know, the first victory and I think the first victory was against the, or something like that.

[01:05:42] But it’s amazing the confidence that first victory brought to the guys and, and also at home, the first win that you get. You don’t have to change a lot. You don’t have to say anything different. You don’t have to do anything different. But it’s almost as if the guys have a lot more confidence in self-belief and think.

[01:06:01] We were at a stage when we lost so many games in the last minute with one point view. I think you can remember that Stef on a flip view as well, and

[01:06:09] Stephan: hard

[01:06:10] Adriaan: broken,

[01:06:10] Stephan: many times,

[01:06:11] Adriaan: heartbroken. And, um, you think, you know, it’s just the bounce of the ball, but all the balls are bouncing against you each and every time.

[01:06:18] And the moment you get that first win, all of a sudden they start bouncing the other way. So exactly how it’s, it’s a momentum shift, but it’s also a confidence shift within the players and their psyche. So if I could give you that very specific answer, um, I would’ve done that, Stefan, that’s the best I can do.

[01:06:39] Stephan: No, that was awesome. Thank you.

[01:06:42] Adriaan: Okay, so Stefan, I follow Wingman quite closely ’cause I’m, I’m intrigued with what you do and the results that you get. You know, a lot of guys post before and after and where they were and you know, usually they’re sitting with a beer or a brandy somewhere and then all of a sudden you see a picture of them running across a finish line.

[01:07:00] But I want to ask you, you, you get the results, but where do you see the, the best results? Is it physical? ’cause the transformation is, is quite evident and we can see that. But is there a mental and a psychological, where’s the biggest difference and uh, biggest growth do you think for athletes that train with you?

[01:07:20] Stephan: It’s a great question and, and the answer is everywhere. It’s not only physical, but it’s also on the mental side. And, and you just alluded to it when you said the self-belief of start of getting that first victory. And then from there you build momentum. It’s pretty much the same and it’s in different areas of your life.

[01:07:36] Everything improves. Um, there. Your health improves, your fitness improves you, you lose a lot of weight, and you sleep better. And you know, you’ve got more energy all around for that’s available to everyone and you just downstream, there’s a lot of positive effects on, on all fronts.

[01:07:50] Justinus: For me, it’s definitely been all of that, Stefan, the energy levels, the physical changes, it’s been transformational.

[01:07:57] So anybody that’s even remotely thinking about, and I’m looking at you Adrian, um, should just jump in.

[01:08:04] Stephan: I say, you next, you

[01:08:05] Justinus: know you’re next and, and, and, and, and start doing it.

[01:08:08] Flip: There’s something else that I, I, I would like to add and going through the whole, you know, don’t wanna sound like this and call it a journey, but going through the whole process of, you know, starting out, it was a fitness.

[01:08:20] Goal at the first, you know, but then it becomes such a, a lifestyle thing that you, you get, you definitely do get addicted to it of feeling fit and nothing tastes as good as band sitting loose, you know? Um. Mm-hmm. But there’s that, um, I, I thought, I think you call it the, you call it the finish line strategy or the finish line philosophy about having a goal in your day, especially like when you’re, you’re an entrepreneur and you have to build something and you sit, you say, okay, I’m gonna block out today and I’ve got this blank page today.

[01:08:50] I’m just gonna build. Something, but you forget to put that first step in and, and write the little goal, this is what I need to achieve today and check it off. And like with the old program, it could, you can actually, you drag it into Outlook and it puts your training for the day is in there. You check that first goal and how much it helps.

[01:09:09] Now you can draw that back to business and how incredibly good it is. If we can design a training peaks for entrepreneurs to put your program in there, I think we’ll make a lot of money.

[01:09:19] Stephan: Yeah. You said so many things now that you know is, is so true. You, you have to schedule it. You’re not, time surplus is a fantasy.

[01:09:28] If you don’t schedule it, you’re not gonna get the training done. And if you don’t have a finish line on the calendar, you, you’re not gonna be, you know, going about your decisions in a, in a, in a proper way. So finish lines is, is what it’s about.

[01:09:42] Justinus: That creates the urgency. I just finished the couple of amazing books about scaling and the one book was called 10 X is Easier than two x.

[01:09:52] And what it says, the reason, part of the reason is it because the 10 x provides so much more clarity in a decision making framework. The things you think you can do to grow your business by two times is not the same things you need to do to grow it by 10 times. So by having that better decision making framework, the decisions actually becomes much easier.

[01:10:13] And, and you end up being able to solve that, that that 10 x problem easier than, than growing by two times.

[01:10:21] Stephan: Exactly. And and that’s why your, your ambitions have to be so high. Sign up for a, a very scary goal. And, and, and that’s the way to, just like your example to double things is one thing, but to, to 10 x things is something different.

[01:10:36] So. Go for 10 x, don’t go for for two x. If you can get 10 or 20 x, just find something that really scares you and get going, even if it’s next year.

[01:10:46] Justinus: Well, something that’s must be very scary for a lot of people wearing green and gold is the goal. I’m sure they’ve already said to have a threepeat on Saturday 13 November, 2027.

[01:10:58] So for both of you, where do you, would you like to be on that day and hopefully watch the boys go for the third one in a row?

[01:11:07] Stephan: I wanna be in that stadium. There’s, i I, I hope I don’t bring bad luck because the only game I saw in the 23 World Cup was when we lost against Ireland and I don’t want to repeat all that.

[01:11:17] So, um, I would like to be there. We just have one small issue to take care of and that’s, I think a lot of us have committed to the manga and, uh, I think we, it’s also write a cup in that year that we are going to. So, but hopefully I’ll be in a position to watch that live.

[01:11:35] Adriaan: I agree with that, Stephan, it would be great to, to be in the stadium and cheer the guys on.

[01:11:40] Um, my wife and I went to to France on the previous World Cup and um, you know, she wasn’t actually interested in watching the game. She said she’ll stay outside of the stadium in that fan zone and then was so amazing at the hour or two before the game we were, we were looking for tickets for her, or a ticket for her.

[01:12:01] We actually found one and we got one, but then she was like on the eastern stand and I was on the southern stand or something like that. They didn’t want her to sit on the step next to me or for myself to sit on the step next to her. So we were actually, um, flew all the way to, to Paris and we stood in the tunnel.

[01:12:20] Uh, they close to where you buy the beers, the beer stand. We could just see it. Yeah. Just to be next to each other and enjoy the game together. So we didn’t actually have a seat, but it’ll be great to be in the stadium and have two proper seats next to each other and cheer the guys on.

[01:12:36] Justinus: That’ll be amazing.

[01:12:38] Uh, thank you guys. That was really great. Um, always great having these conversations and just learning from all the journeys around and, and talking a bit of rugby. So thanks for joining us and thanks for sharing.

[01:12:49] Flip: I think we could have gone for another couple of hours, so sorry for the, for the length, but it was great to get your insights.

[01:12:55] Justinus: Thanks. Flip. Thanks C

[01:12:57] Adriaan: No,

[01:12:57] Flip: thank you. Great to see

[01:12:58] Adriaan: all of you.